The Warless World

[Biblica]

Someone said "The Geneva Bible, published before the KJV" and I replied to that comment

Okay. The Geneva Bible was published before the King James Version, and influenced the King James translators. It was later banned in favor of the King James. It pre-dated the King James by about 51 years. The Geneva Bible was taken from Wycliffe's translation among others. It was banned by the King because of its liner notes which were anti-Catholic. Otherwise, the Bible's content is very close to the King James. After this, please do not divert from the theme of the thread. Thank you.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

John Calvin did not believe there shouldn't be any wars...

He was pro war.

 

[Biblica]

John Calvin did not believe there shouldn't be any wars...

He was pro war.

John Calvin had a religious spirit as do the majority of Christians today. What has this got to do with the subject of the thread?

 

[SirJamsalot]

I don't want to get away from the subject of my thread. But, the verses you quote from Zechariah that describes the mourning, relates to the surviving Jews after the second captivity (Zechariah 14-1,2)when they see that Jesus is the Messiah who has returned and stopped the war. In prophecy much is not in any chronological order. Also the people that survive the time of wrath, Matthew 24: 38-41, when half the world's population will be will be removed will also see His return. They would be the "cattle" in Ezekiel 34:17. These are the survivors of the nations that are required to attend the feast of Tabernacles described in Zechariah 14.

I understand the subject of your thread to be why the absence of worldwide peace during Christ’s earthly ministry doesn't disqualify Him as the Messiah. Your answer is that Isaiah’s warless world begins after Christ returns and judges the nations. That's all I'm really trying to understand, how you arrive at that timing, and that's why I'm asking about the survivors and the chronology.

You identified these survivors as the “cattle” in Ezekiel 34:17. My understanding of Ezekiel 34 is that what's being spoken of there are divisions within the same flock.

Ezekiel 34 and the cattle
The translations are fairly consistent once we get beyond the older English use of “cattle”:

• KJV: “O my flock... I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.”
• ASV 1901: “O my flock... I judge between sheep and sheep, the rams and the he-goats.”
• NKJV: “O My flock... I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats.”
• ESV: “my flock... I judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and male goats.”
• LSB: “My flock... I will judge between one sheep and another, between the rams and the male goats.”

The LSB probably makes the meaning easiest to see: “between one sheep and another.”

The Hebrew also seems clear:

• Tson means a flock or small livestock consisting of sheep and goats. That's the word translated “My flock.”
• Seh means one member of a flock, either a sheep or a goat. Ezekiel says that God judges between one seh and another seh.
• Ayil means a ram.
• Attud means a mature male goat or he-goat.

The KJV’s “cattle” is older English for the livestock making up the flock. God judges between members of that flock. Verse 20 describes the fat and lean animals, verse 22 again says He'll judge “between cattle and cattle,” and verse 31 explains the figure:

“And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men.” (Ezekiel 34:31)

So, I'm not seeing “cattle” as a separate third category of people outside the sheep and goats in that verse. I'm open to hearing more about the surrounding context if there's something there that gets us to that reading.

How I understand the survivors

I see Zechariah 14:16 describing survivors. The looming question is, what judgment did they survive?

You also made the fair point that prophetic material isn't always given in chronological order. That's one reason I hesitate to identify the judgment in Zechariah 14 as Christ’s bodily return based on where it appears in the prophetic material. We still need something in the text that anchors it there.

Here's how I understand it. Zechariah 14 begins with the judgment that came upon Jerusalem in AD 70 and then moves into the effects of Christ’s present reign as the gospel goes out to the nations. The survivors remain within history, and the nations are brought under the worship and rule of God through the work of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit works through the gospel to save men and transform nations. At Pentecost about three thousand were added in one day, and shortly afterward the number of believing men came to about five thousand. I see that as the beginning of a work that continues through history, with the same Spirit bringing nations to Christ.

During that transformation, nations remain in history and are called to worship God, while disobedience, drought, and temporal correction remain possible. There'll be ups and downs in history, as there always have been. Christians are called to endure trials and tribulations, but the historical dominance of unbelief will wane as the gospel advances.

Eventually, knowing the Lord will become the norm rather than the exception. There'll still be people who need the gospel, including every new generation, but unbelief won't continue setting the direction of the world.

Postmillennialism expects the gospel to become predominant, with the majority of the world brought under Christ’s teaching and rule while some unregenerate people remain. Universal regeneration isn't something postmillennialism pushes.

Just as the Holy Spirit works through the gospel to bring individual believers to faith and repentance, I believe He'll continue that work through history until the majority of people on earth come to Christ. That's the vision I see in promises such as these:

“Ask of me, and I will give thee the nations for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.” (Psalm 2:8, ASV)

“All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.” (Psalm 22:27, ASV)

“Yea, all kings shall fall down before him; All nations shall serve him.” (Psalm 72:11, ASV)

“For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea.” (Habakkuk 2:14, ASV)

These promises describe conversion, worship, and the nations learning to serve Christ. They take place while people can still turn to Him, while enemies can still be warned, and while history continues.

Those who remain unregenerate provide the population Satan deceives when he's released for his short time:

“And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, and shall come forth to deceive the nations.” (Revelation 20:7-8)

They're ordinary mortal people already living in history. They didn't survive Christ’s bodily return and they aren't receiving another opportunity after the final judgment. They're the people Satan draws into the final rebellion before the consummation.

Then Christ returns. Those who belong to Him are raised and changed, death is destroyed as the last enemy, the sheep and goats receive their respective judgments, and then comes the end.

That leaves two categories at Christ’s return. Those who belong to Christ are raised and changed, and those who remain in rebellion are judged. Another class of unconverted mortals isn't needed afterward.

I don't see Matthew 24:38-41 creating another group. Jesus gives two paired examples, one taken and one left. That's an illustration of separation, not a statement that precisely half the world survives. The comparison with Noah likewise gives us those preserved and those overtaken by judgment.

I'm open to correction here. I understand why someone might read these passages differently, but the hostility toward postmillennialism honestly baffles me. To me, it seems well supported by Scripture, and it gives us real reason to proclaim the gospel with hope.

Christ’s command is enough reason to proclaim the gospel. Postmillennial hope also gives us confidence that He intends to bless that mission in history. God chooses to use us in His plan to gather a people for Himself. We get to play a role as our neighbors are brought to Christ and become our brothers and sisters in Him. That's an uplifting reason to look toward the future with hope.

So, to me, the postmillennial chronology accounts for the survivors, the continuing nations, the final rebellion, the resurrection, and the final judgment without introducing a mortal population after Christ has already judged all nations. If I'm missing the textual link in your chronology, that's the link I'd genuinely like you to walk me through.

I'll leave it here unless you want to continue. I appreciate the civil discussion.

In His Grip,

S.J.

 

[Biblica]

The postmillennial theology really isn't based on scripture, it a a philosophy based loosely on scripture. The word says that there will be a falling away from the faith, a time of apostasy before Jesus returns II Thess. 2:3. The world definitely is not going to get better. That is not the Biblical pattern. Sin has to reach its fullness before God judges it, Genesis 15:16. We are on the verge of seeing the fulfillment of Revelation's one world government arriving, where the mark of the beast will be implemented forbidding people to buy or sell without it. For the first time in history we have the technical means to do that through Digital IDs. One clue is Jesus' parable of the ten virgins, the timing of which is before Jesus' second coming, which is after the mark has been implemented. Five of the virgins are told to go and buy, which means they have taken the mark and that is why they are rejected when He comes. True Christians will not be able to buy plane tickets or travel, shutting down ministry operations. Jesus wondered if He would find (the) faith on the earth when He returns, it will be so bad. Luke 18:18. We are told to work while it is day because the night is coming when no man can work. John 9:4. He is prophesying of a time when Christianity will be outlawed as it is now in many countries. The predominating theology of the coming world system is godless communism where man is god, matching Paul's description of the antichrist in II Thess. 2: 3,4. We are continuing to watch communist China becoming more powerful. They currently have the largest bank on the planet worth trillions.

The captivity in Zechariah 14 is not 70AD. This is referred to as a captivity. The attack in 70AD was not a captivity. Jesus returns and gathers His people, which is the second time mentioned in Isaiah 11:11. The first time was after the Babylonian captivity. The context of the chapter in Isaiah 11 is the millennial time of peace when the wolf lies down with the lamb, etc. That does not happen until Jesus returns. In Zechariah we see the Lord's return causing a massive earthquake that splits the Mount of Olives, one of the major earthquakes that precedes His arrival. Also the earth will continue to experience the environmental plagues described in Rev. 8 and 16 resulting in heat, depletion of the ocean's oxygen leaving it as the blood of a dead man Rev 16:3. The oxygen-less dead zones in the ocean today are expanding, rivers are drying now including the Euphrates 16:12. Instead of a world wide return to Christianity, Christians have become the most persecuted people on earth. There are more martyrs today than at any other time in world history.

The cattle are part of the flock that remain because those that are left of the devastations and the final war are the ones the Lord knows will be faithful to Him. That is the time when the remaining people will come to Jerusalem to worship God in Christ, fulfilling the prophecies. The captivity in Zechariah 14 correlates to Daniel 12 and the judgment is seen afterward.
Because the time in Matthew 24 is likened to the time of Noah, we are shown that there will be many deaths but some will be spared like Noah and His family.

 

[SirJamsalot]

The postmillennial theology really isn't based on scripture, it a a philosophy based loosely on scripture.

I'll be forthright here, Biblica: that opening is a little off-putting. I've given you Scripture and explained how I understand those passages to fit together.

Psalm 2:8 says the nations are given to Christ as His inheritance.
Psalm 22:27 says all the ends of the earth will turn to the Lord.
Psalm 72:11 says all kings will bow before Him and all nations will serve Him.
Habakkuk 2:14 says the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God's glory as the waters cover the sea.

Those four verses are Scripture. You can argue that they don't mean what I think they mean, and if so, let's discuss them. Dismissing my understanding as unscriptural without engaging those passages simply assumes the very point we're discussing.

I've also appealed to 1 Corinthians 15 for the order of Christ's reign, return, resurrection, and the end. You may believe I'm interpreting that passage incorrectly, and I'm open to hearing where, but that requires engaging with the Scripture I've presented. Good hermeneutics requires us to use the clearer passages to help us understand those that are less clear.

Paul's order is quite clear:

1. Christ reigns;
2. He returns;
3. those who belong to Him are raised and changed;
4. then comes the end.

Therefore, if you want to insert a thousand-year mortal kingdom between the resurrection of those who are Christ's at His coming and “then cometh the end,” that interval needs to be established from Scripture.

The captivity in Zechariah 14 is not 70AD. This is referred to as a captivity. The attack in 70AD was not a captivity. Jesus returns and gathers His people, which is the second time mentioned in Isaiah 11:11. The first time was after the Babylonian captivity. The context of the chapter in Isaiah 11 is the millennial time of peace when the wolf lies down with the lamb, etc. That does not happen until Jesus returns. In Zechariah we see the Lord's return causing a massive earthquake that splits the Mount of Olives, one of the major earthquakes that precedes His arrival. Also the earth will continue to experience the environmental plagues described in Rev. 8 and 16 resulting in heat, depletion of the ocean's oxygen leaving it as the blood of a dead man Rev 16:3. The oxygen-less dead zones in the ocean today are expanding, rivers are drying now including the Euphrates 16:12. Instead of a world wide return to Christianity, Christians have become the most persecuted people on earth. There are more martyrs today than at any other time in world history.

You say that the attack in AD 70 wasn't a captivity, but Jesus specifically described it as one. In Luke's parallel account of the Olivet Discourse, He describes Jerusalem surrounded by armies and says:

“And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24)

Whatever conclusion we finally reach about the other imagery in Zechariah 14, the absence of a captivity in AD 70 can't be the reason for excluding it. Jesus says that Jerusalem's inhabitants would be led captive into all nations.

I'm also having difficulty with the sequence you're assigning to Isaiah 11:11. Isaiah doesn't identify the first gathering as the return from Babylon. Verse 16 compares the promised gathering with Israel's deliverance from Egypt:

“And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people... like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.” (Isaiah 11:16)

That appears to make the Exodus the first great deliverance behind the “second time” language. Paul also quotes Isaiah 11:10 in Romans 15:12 to explain the Gentiles presently placing their hope in Christ. At the very least, the New Testament doesn't reserve the whole chapter for a kingdom beginning after Christ's bodily return.

The Mount of Olives and the environmental judgments still require interpretation, but they don't establish the chronology being assumed. So, what in Zechariah 14 or Isaiah 11 expressly places this captivity after Christ's bodily return?

The cattle are part of the flock that remain because those that are left of the devastations and the final war are the ones the Lord knows will be faithful to Him. That is the time when the remaining people will come to Jerusalem to worship God in Christ, fulfilling the prophecies. The captivity in Zechariah 14 correlates to Daniel 12 and the judgment is seen afterward.
Because the time in Matthew 24 is likened to the time of Noah, we are shown that there will be many deaths but some will be spared like Noah and His family.

That clarification helps. We now agree that the “cattle” are members of the flock, and you identify those who remain as people the Lord already knows will be faithful to Him. That seems to resolve the original question about whether the cattle represent a third category. They're already faithful members of Christ's flock when He returns.

So what happens to them at His coming?

Paul says:

“Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end...” (1 Corinthians 15:23-24)

When Paul includes believers who are still alive at Christ's coming, he says:

“We shall all be changed... the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)

If these survivors are already faithful to Christ, they appear to belong among “they that are Christ's at his coming.” What passage excludes them from “we shall all be changed” and says that they remain mortal afterward?

Again, I think the comparison with Noah reinforces the same two categories. Noah and his family belonged to God before the flood, and God preserved them through that historical judgment. Those outside the ark were overtaken by it. The comparison doesn't identify faithful people who pass through Christ's bodily return without receiving the transformation Paul says belongs to those who are Christ's.

Summing up

I think we've reached the point where our disagreement is primarily about chronology. You place the captivity, the surviving faithful, and the worship of the nations after Christ's bodily return. I understand Zechariah's survivors as people who remain within history following God's judgment upon Jerusalem. The gospel then goes out to the nations during Christ's present reign. Some unregenerate people remain, Satan deceives them during his final short release, and that rebellion occurs before Christ returns.

Then Christ returns, those who belong to Him are raised and changed, death is swallowed up in victory, the nations are judged, and then comes the end.

That accounts for the survivors, the continuing nations, and the final rebellion while they remain mortal conditions within history. It also leaves us with the two groups Jesus identifies at the final judgment: those who belong to Him and those who remain in rebellion.

Your explanation now identifies the survivors as faithful members of Christ's flock, so the textual link I'm still looking for is this: where does Scripture place those faithful survivors after Christ's bodily return and say that they continue living as mortals after Paul says that those who are Christ's will all be changed?

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your position. I don't expect us to settle the entire prophetic calendar in one discussion, but I hope you can see that I'm trying to derive the chronology from the passages themselves (scripture - not sight). If I'm missing the passage that supplies this post-return mortal population, that's the passage I'd genuinely like you to walk me through.

In His Grip,
S.J.

 

[Biblica]

Psalm 2:8 says the nations are given to Christ as His inheritance.
Psalm 22:27 says all the ends of the earth will turn to the Lord.
Psalm 72:11 says all kings will bow before Him and all nations will serve Him.
Habakkuk 2:14 says the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God's glory as the waters cover the sea.

These passages are referring to Jesus' millennial reign. This occurs after the tribulation. His sign appears in the sky first Matt. 24:30, then He sends His angels to gather His people. This is the only time there will be no true believers on earth. Heaven's time zone is different than ours, so while the bowl judgments are being poured out Rev. 16) and "One is taken, the other left" Matthew 24: 39-42), the marriage supper of the Lamb takes place. This is the first time all believers will be in heaven to celebrate it. Then Jesus returns with His saints and He rules and 'All nations will serve Him.' This is the millennial reign. This correlates to Zechariah 14 when all nations are commanded to come to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of tabernacles.

You are misinterpreting I Cor. 15. Paul says Jesus rose from the dead and ascended. "afterward they that are Christ's at His coming" verse 23. Then comes the end, after His coming. This is the end of this present evil age.This is where we go back to Matthew and correlate those events with what Paul is saying here. Jesus is reigning at this time during the millennial when all His enemies are put under His feet. You have the order reversed. Christ returns then He reigns. I Cor 15:23, - His coming , verse 25 - His reign.

You say that the attack in AD 70 wasn't a captivity, but Jesus specifically described it as one. In Luke's parallel account of the Olivet Discourse, He describes Jerusalem surrounded by armies and says:

Jesus and Luke are not describing the attack on Jerusalem in 70AD. Jesus' disciples asked Him to tell them what the signs of His coming would be and the end of the age. Then Jesus describes the last attack on Jerusalem that directly precedes His second coming, and the gathering of His people. The attack in 70AD was not a captivity. The people were already under Roman rule. Titus was responding to the Jews' rebellion. Then they were banished from the land. The time frame Jesus gives is from the budding of the fig tree (Matt 24:32,33). The fig represents Israel according to the early Christian writers. The budding of the fig tree is the sign that we are entering the "generation" (Matt.24:34) before Jesus' return. The budding of the fig tree is Israel's becoming a nation in 1948. A generation is as long as a man can live. Everything began to accelerate in the Middle East after Israel celebrated her 75th birthday as a nation.

I'm also having difficulty with the sequence you're assigning to Isaiah 11:11. Isaiah doesn't identify the first gathering as the return from Babylon. Verse 16 compares the promised gathering with Israel's deliverance from Egypt:

The context of the verse puts it at the time when there is a world peace. verses 6-9. And according to Daniel, there is no world peace until after that last attack on Jerusalem Daniel 12:1. Then comes the judgment. The judgment occurs when Jesus returns. So the chapter is describing what happens after Jesus returns. Note the verse preceding verse 11 is describing the peace the Messiah brings. It is at this time, when Jesus returns that His people are gathered a second time from the second captivity descibed in Matthew 24 and Zechariah 1,2.

The Mount of Olives and the environmental judgments still require interpretation, but they don't establish the chronology being assumed. So, what in Zechariah 14 or Isaiah 11 expressly places this captivity after Christ's bodily return?

The captivity occurs before Jesus bodily return, not after.

If these survivors are already faithful to Christ, they appear to belong among “they that are Christ's at his coming.” What passage excludes them from “we shall all be changed” and says that they remain mortal afterward?

Those that are changed at Jesus' coming receive their resurrected bodies. They are not mortal any longer. These are the ones that are gathered by the angels just before Jesus' returns and includes all believers who lived and died in Christ prior to His return. Once they receive their resurrected bodies can no longer die and can reign the thousand years.

Those who are alive when Jesus returns are not among those believers who have received Him by faith prior to His return and who will be ruling and reigning with Him. The ones who receive Him when He comes, especially the Jews, do not have that privilege. They will be mourning (Zech. 12:10) because they always believed that the Jews alone would rule the world with their Messiah, but they rejected the true Messiah Jesus and have lost the privilege. People will still experience death during Jesus' reign, but living long lives. Isaiah 65:20.

Again, I think the comparison with Noah reinforces the same two categories. Noah and his family belonged to God before the flood, and God preserved them through that historical judgment. Those outside the ark were overtaken by it. The comparison doesn't identify faithful people who pass through Christ's bodily return without receiving the transformation Paul says belongs to those who are Christ's.

The ones that are not taken are the cattle, the people remaining of the nations who will receive Jesus as Messiah when He comes. The others will not and Jesus removes every element of evil and rebellion. He alone knows who are His and will be faithful to Him.

You place the captivity, the surviving faithful, and the worship of the nations after Christ's bodily return.

I am not placing the captivity after Jesus' bodily return. That happens before Jesus returns. The surviving nations worship Him after His return during His thousand year reign. That is the pattern in Zechariah 14. The captivity, then Jesus returns. Same as Matthew 24.

Satan deceives them during his final short release, and that rebellion occurs before Christ returns.

Jesus returns Rev. 19 and destroys the beast system and the antichrist. Satan is bound during the Millennial reign, Rev.20:1-3, then after the thousand years he is released to test the people and they fail. That is when God creates a new heaven and earth.

I hope this answers your questions. I need a nap and a cookie. Be blessed.

 

[SirJamsalot]

I hope this answers your questions. I need a nap and a cookie. Be blessed.

mmm. I'm having cookie envy
I think i understand better where you arrive at that 3rd category now. Thanks for the explanation. I'll ruminate on this a while. Enjoy that cookie!

in His Grip
S.J.

 

[SirJamsalot]

Biblica, your reply clarifies your chronology, and I need to correct my earlier summary. As I now understand it, you place the captivity during the tribulation before Christ appears and gathers His saints in Matthew 24:30-31. Every believer is gathered and glorified, then taken to heaven for the marriage supper while the bowls fall on earth. Christ afterward descends with them. I understand the gathering and later descent as two stages of the same Second Coming in your system.

The survivors who receive Him enter the thousand-year kingdom as mortals. They marry, have children, and die, and I assume their descendants supply Satan's final rebellion. You place that reign in First Corinthians 15:25-26 between Christ's coming in verse 23 and “then cometh the end” in verse 24. Death continues among the mortals until the millennium ends, while “Death is swallowed up in victory” in verses 51-54 applies to the saints glorified at Christ's coming. Please correct anything I've misunderstood.

With that qualification, three things keep me from seeing that chronology in the passages.

1. Paul places the completion of Christ's mediatorial reign at His coming

I now understand how the Psalms and Isaiah fit within your system. You place their earthly conditions during a mortal kingdom after Christ returns. I place them within history during His present reign. Repeating them won't settle our difference. The question is whether the New Testament leaves room for another mortal age after Christ's coming.

The Father promises the nations to the Son in Psalm 2. After His resurrection, Christ declares that all authority in heaven and earth has been given to Him and sends His Church to disciple those nations (Matthew 28:18-20). Hebrews describes Him seated at the Father's right hand, “from henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool” (Hebrews 10:13).

That's the background I see when Paul writes:

“Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father... For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:23-26)

You wrote, “Christ returns then He reigns. I Cor 15:23, His coming, verse 25, His reign.” This is the point I can't get past. Verse 25 appears later on the page, but Paul doesn't say, “Then He shall reign.” It begins with “for.” Paul is explaining why the end follows the resurrection at Christ's coming: Christ must reign until every enemy has been subdued, and the last enemy is death.

Paul then identifies when death is defeated:

“We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump... then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” (1 Corinthians 15:51-54)

The last trumpet, Christ's coming, the resurrection of His people, and victory over death converge in the same event. Since death is the last enemy, no enemy remains to be subdued afterward.

B.B. Warfield, “The Prophecies of St. Paul,” Biblical Doctrines, summarizes Paul's order: the end comes when the last enemy is conquered; death is the last enemy; death is conquered when it releases Christ's people at His coming. He concludes, “The end then is synchronous with the victory over death, which itself is synchronous with the second coming....”

Acts 2 gives the same order. Peter says Christ has already been raised, exalted to David's throne at the Father's right hand, and seated there until His enemies are made His footstool (Acts 2:29-36).

Paul's sequence therefore reads this way to me: Christ is reigning now. Those who belong to Him are raised and changed at His coming. Death is destroyed as the last enemy. Then comes the end, when the completed kingdom is delivered to the Father.

Your reading appears to place a thousand years of mortality, procreation, death, and rebellion between Christ's bodily return, when the dead in Christ are raised and His living people are changed, and the destruction of death as the last enemy. I don't see that interval in Paul's sentence.

2. Where do the unglorified believers come from?

Your chronology requires people who were unbelievers when every Christian was gathered to come to Christ afterward and enter the millennium as mortals. That creates a group of genuine believers who weren't gathered or changed, didn't attend the marriage supper, remain subject to death, and must receive resurrection bodies at some later point. Their descendants also supply the population from which Satan gathers his final rebellion. I can't find where Scripture introduces this group.

Revelation 19 presses the difficulty in that reading. The bride has made herself ready, the marriage supper is announced, and then heaven opens and Christ descends with His glorified saints. If people become Christians on earth after the gathering, they miss the wedding feast. Are they part of Christ's bride? If they are, the marriage occurs while part of the bride is absent. If they aren't, the redeemed are divided into the bride and another class of believers. Where does the text establish that distinction?

The ten virgins press the same question:

“And they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.” (Matthew 25:10)

Readiness precedes the Bridegroom's arrival. Those who are ready enter the wedding, the door is shut, and the others hear, “I know you not.” The instruction to buy oil belongs to the parable's imagery. The text doesn't mention the mark of the beast or describe people receiving salvation after the Bridegroom appears.

Jesus then comes in glory and separates the nations. The sheep enter eternal life, and the goats enter eternal punishment (Matthew 25:31-46). Perhaps you identify the sheep as the mortals entering the millennium. That leaves the same question: did they belong to Christ when every believer was gathered and glorified, or did they become His afterward? If they belonged to Him, why were they left behind? If they became His afterward, why does the wedding parable close the door when the Bridegroom arrives?

Luke adds that those who attain the resurrection “neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more” (Luke 20:35-36). Your millennium therefore contains two populations of Christians: glorified believers who attended the wedding and can no longer marry or die, and unglorified believers who missed the wedding, marry, die, and require another resurrection later. The question is where Scripture teaches this division.

3. Revelation 20 doesn't require that interval

I understand that you read Revelation 19 and 20 as one continuous chronology: Christ returns, Satan is bound, the thousand years follow, Satan is released, and the final rebellion occurs.

I understand Revelation as visions that repeatedly carry history to judgment and then return to view the period from another perspective. “And I saw” gives the order in which John received the visions. It doesn't require the events themselves to follow that chronology.

Christ said during His earthly ministry that the kingdom had arrived and that He had bound the strong man to plunder his house (Matthew 12:28-29). Revelation 20 says Satan is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more.” That fits the present gospel age, when Christ is gathering the formerly deceived nations as His inheritance.

On this reading, Satan's short release produces the final rebellion within history. Christ then returns, raises and changes His people, destroys the rebels, judges mankind, and abolishes death. Then comes the end. The people Satan deceives are mortals already living before Christ returns, so another class of post-return mortals isn't needed.

I think this is where our timelines separate. You read First Corinthians 15 as leaving room for Christ's reign after His coming, and Revelation 19 and 20 as supplying that reign. I read Acts 2 and Hebrews 10 as declaring Christ's reign already underway, First Corinthians 15 as ending that reign with the resurrection and defeat of death, and Revelation 20 as another view of that same present reign.

I hope this explains why I see postmillennialism arising from Scripture's promises and apostolic chronology. It brings the kingdom promises, Christ's present reign, the final rebellion, His return, the resurrection, and the consummation into one account without requiring an additional population after He appears.

Most people respond to postmillennialism by looking at the world and saying, “But what about all the chaos? I don't see the world getting better.” I grew up in the 1980s and watched countless end-times predictions fall flat. Those failures caused me to pay much closer attention to what Scripture actually promises.

The people in the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11 didn't allow present circumstances to cancel God's promises. They trusted Him to fulfill His Word in His time, even when they wouldn't live to see it. I believe God has promised to restore the world progressively through His Son. It may not happen in our generation or the next, but God's Word, empowered by the Holy Spirit, will prevail in the hearts of the nations before Christ's Second Coming. My confidence rests in what Christ has promised.

In His Grip,
S.J.

 

[Biblica]

Your reading appears to place a thousand years of mortality, procreation, death, and rebellion between Christ's bodily return, when the dead in Christ are raised and His living people are changed, and the destruction of death as the last enemy. I don't see that interval in Paul's sentence.

My reading is based on Revelation which fills in what the apostles were teaching. Peter taught that the world was going to end, from his reading of the prophets, but that was written before John's Revelation which came in after Peter's death and filled in the details. The same applies to what Paul wrote. He and Peter were both martyred before John wrote Revelation.

After the millennial reign there is another rebellion and the planet is destroyed, thus everyone living on the planet then that has rebelled is killed. So death is technically defeated, ceases to exist, until then, but death has been defeated for believer's before that because we do not die when the body dies, we go to the Father.
Jesus is reigning now over all believers, but He is not physically ruling the world now. He is letting evil have its reign until it comes to it's fulness.

 

[Biblica]

Readiness precedes the Bridegroom's arrival. Those who are ready enter the wedding, the door is shut, and the others hear, “I know you not.” The instruction to buy oil belongs to the parable's imagery. The text doesn't mention the mark of the beast or describe people receiving salvation after the Bridegroom appears.

The timing of the parable occurs just before Jesus returns when the mark is in effect. That is why the virgins were able to buy and sell and why they were rejected. They had let the oil in their lamps go out. Oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and the Spirit is the Spirit of truth. They had lost the truth. These virgins were liberal Christians who did not follow God's word and did not heed God's warning to not take the mark. They were in apostasy and probably did not even think that Jesus was the only way to the Father. I had a friend who was a professed Christian who thought the same thing. I recently came across a church in New York that actually says on its website, "We have too much respect for God's word to take it literally."

 

[SirJamsalot]

Thanks, Biblica.
We're coming to a sharp disagreement here, but I enjoy the discussion. I'm used to hearing the historic and dispensational forms of premillennialism. Your view seems to combine elements of both in a way I haven't encountered before.

Biblica wrote: My reading is based on Revelation which fills in what the apostles were teaching. Peter taught that the world was going to end, from his reading of the prophets, but that was written before John's Revelation which came in after Peter's death and filled in the details. The same applies to what Paul wrote. He and Peter were both martyred before John wrote Revelation.

After the millennial reign there is another rebellion and the planet is destroyed, thus everyone living on the planet then that has rebelled is killed. So death is technically defeated, ceases to exist, until then, but death has been defeated for believer's before that because we do not die when the body dies, we go to the Father.
Jesus is reigning now over all believers, but He is not physically ruling the world now. He is letting evil have its reign until it comes to it's fulness.

For the sake of discussion, I'll grant the late date of Revelation, though I disagree with that dating. Revelation can supply details that weren't disclosed in earlier writings. But those details still have to agree with what the Spirit had already revealed through Paul and Peter, as you agreed earlier. Scripture cannot conflict with itself; when passages appear to conflict, our interpretation is what needs adjustment.

Neither apostle was offering his best pre-Revelation estimate of the future. Peter wrote under inspiration, and Paul says that his teaching about Christ's coming was “by the word of the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:15). He also introduces the resurrection teaching of First Corinthians 15 as a revealed “mystery” (verse 51).

The 1,000-year interval isn't stated in Paul's order. It comes from assuming that Revelation 19 and 20 form one uninterrupted chronology.

Paul's stated order is straightforward:

1 CORINTHIANS 15:23
Christ's people are raised at His coming

↓

1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
Then comes the end
​

That assumption is then inserted into Paul's order:

1 CORINTHIANS 15:23
Christ's people are raised at His coming

↓

← ASSUMED 1,000-YEAR INTERVAL INSERTED HERE →

↓

1 CORINTHIANS 15:24
Then comes the end
​

That interval is then treated as something Revelation supplied to complete Paul's chronology. That's the circle I'm pointing out.

“Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end... For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.” (1 Corinthians 15:23-26)

“For he must reign” explains why the end follows the resurrection at His coming. Christ reigns until His enemies are subdued, and death is the last of them. Paul then tells us what the defeat of death means:

“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality... then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” (1 Corinthians 15:53-54)

Going to the Father when the body dies is the intermediate state of the believer. That means the believer doesn't cease to live. It doesn't mean death has been destroyed. Paul still calls departed believers “the dead in Christ” and says they must be raised (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Their souls are with the Lord, but death has separated body and soul, and their redemption awaits the resurrection of the body.

Paul's entire argument in First Corinthians 15 concerns that resurrection. Death is swallowed up when the dead are raised incorruptible and the living are changed. Killing the final rebels doesn't destroy death. It produces more dead bodies. Paul places death's defeat at the opposite event: the dead are raised, corruptible bodies put on incorruption, and mortality puts on immortality.

First Corinthians 15 gives both the duration and the endpoint of Christ's present reign: He “must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet,” and the last enemy is death. Paul doesn't divide that reign into a present heavenly reign over believers and a later physical reign upon the earth.

Psalm 110 describes Christ ruling “in the midst” of His enemies while seated at the Father's right hand in heaven. Revelation calls Him “the prince of the kings of the earth” while He is enthroned in heaven (Revelation 1:5). Paul makes that relationship even more explicit:

“Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion... And hath put all things under his feet.” (Ephesians 1:20-22)

Christ's heavenly enthronement is the present exercise of His authority over the earth. That authority is already complete; First Corinthians 15 describes its historical outworking until the last enemy is destroyed. Evil's continued presence doesn't establish that evil possesses the reigning authority. It exists within Christ's sovereign government while He brings every enemy beneath His feet.

This still leaves the central question on the table. If people receive Christ after those who belong to Him have been raised and changed at His coming, they form another company of Christians. They miss the gathering, glorification, and marriage supper, remain mortal, and may die during the millennium.

If Revelation 20 is where you place their resurrection, then your system has two resurrections of Christians separated by a thousand years. Where does either Paul or John identify this second company of redeemed people and assign them that later resurrection?

I'm not seeing it.

Biblica wrote: The timing of the parable occurs just before Jesus returns when the mark is in effect. That is why the virgins were able to buy and sell and why they were rejected. They had let the oil in their lamps go out. Oil is symbolic of the Holy Spirit and the Spirit is the Spirit of truth. They had lost the truth. These virgins were liberal Christians who did not follow God's word and did not heed God's warning to not take the mark. They were in apostasy and probably did not even think that Jesus was the only way to the Father. I had a friend who was a professed Christian who thought the same thing. I recently came across a church in New York that actually says on its website, "We have too much respect for God's word to take it literally."

The parable concerns readiness for the Bridegroom's arrival, but that doesn't make every feature of the story a prophetic cipher drawn from Revelation. Matthew 25 never mentions the beast, his mark, or an inability to buy and sell without the mark. The parable doesn't even say that the foolish virgins completed a purchase. It says, “while they went to buy, the bridegroom came” (verse 10).

There is also a serious internal problem with identifying the purchase of oil with receiving the mark. The wise virgins tell the foolish:

“Go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.” (Matthew 25:9)

If buying oil means taking the mark, the wise virgins are advising the foolish virgins to commit the very apostasy that condemns them. I don't think that can be the intended meaning.

Oil can symbolize the Holy Spirit in some passages, but a symbol doesn't carry one fixed meaning everywhere it appears. In this parable the oil belongs to the ordinary wedding imagery. The foolish virgins brought lamps without an adequate supply, while the wise came prepared. Jesus gives the point Himself: “Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh” (verse 13).

The text also doesn't say that the foolish virgins once possessed the truth and then lost it. The Bridegroom says, “I know you not,” rather than, “I knew you before you fell into apostasy.” Calling them liberal Christians who accepted the mark adds several conclusions that the parable never supplies.

In His Grip,
S.J.

 

[stevesonthebay]

The major reason why the Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah, is that to them He did not fulfill the prophecies in Isaiah 11:6-9 and 2:4. –

I have often imagined if I was a Jew in Christs time whether I would connnect the dots and realise that Christ meets the prophesies as the Messiah. When we look today its quite obvious that Jesus did meet those requirements.

In fact skeptics say Jesus is so good at meeting these that the stories were fabricated, Or Christ and his followers staged the events to match the prophesies. Thats how well they line up. So a Jew at that time knowing all that Christ did could not possibly deny this.

Which then means this was a denial, a deception and false teaching upon many Jews by the pharisees and high priests.

Why. Because I think for the very reason that the idea of the coming Messiah for them was a warless earthly kingdom. One in which they had power and status as high priests and officials and control of the law.

That fundemental difference in worldview I think is what blinds the Jews to the truth of Christ.

Which means they are still waiting and this must be related to the building of the 3rd temple and the false messiah. The present conflict with Isreal and Iran and Hamas is related as well I think. This is all about fighting over and building world kingdoms. Instead of realising that the Messiah has already come and being able to have true peace that Christ offers.