The "watch rapture view"

[Davidpt]

For example. Before Christ left the planet He already said to watch for His return. Does this mean He could have returned the same day He left?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Does this mean the same day Paul said/wrote these words, Christ could have returned that same day? In hindsight we know He didn't return that same day. But that's not the point. The point is, it was never possible to begin with.

Some insist that Christ can return at anytime, even today. But is that really true in light of that the Father has a time appointed for this, which means His return can't occur until this appointed time has arrived first?

Christ only returns one time, not multiple times. Therefore, when He returns this one time it has to involve the dead in Christ rising first followed by the rapture. These events do not happen multiple times at different times. They only happen one time.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


One can not apply this numerous times. It can only be applied one time, period.

Can Christ return today or even tomorrow, or even this week? Or even this year? Absolutely not, as in zero chance. It is impossible because the beast has to reign 42 months first, for example. Undeniably, this AI technology seen throughout the world is connected with the beast and false prophet. And it's just getting started. No way is Christ going to return before AI has a chance to run it's course first.

Anyone that insists Christ can return today or even tomorrow are flat out lying to you and are lying to themselves. This doesn't mean 5 years from now, or 10 years from now, assuming Christ hasn't returned by then, that the same is still true, that He can't return that same day nor the next day, either. It all depends on what has been fulfilled by the next 5 or 10 years.

But we are speaking of now. As of now there are still numerous things that need to be fulfilled before He can return. IOW, it's the same logic when Christ left the planet. It was impossible that He could return the same day He left or even the next day. There were still numerous things that have to be fulfilled before He can return. The same logic with what Paul wrote/said in 2 Thessalonians 2. It was impossible that Christ could return that same day or even the next day, in regards to when he wrote/said those words.

We are to watch for one return, not multiple returns happening at different times. Therefore, based on that alone, the chance for Pretrib being true is zero.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, you understand that Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation.

What you don't understand is that He also comes before the tribulation for the Church.

No, He will not. You make that up in your imagination. That is not taught anywhere in scripture.

You also don't understand who is being raptured when Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal. Those being raptured sing the song of Moses........they are Jews.

Wrong. Where do you get this nonsense from? It's not taught in scripture.

You also disregard the trumpets of God wraths and jump right to the 7th trumpet and somehow claim the 6th seal is the seventh seal, seventh trumpet.

No, I do not. I have said MANY times that I see the seals, trumpets and vials as being parallel, so I don't disregard any of the trumpets. Don't blame me for your lack of reading comprehension skills. At the seventh seal, heaven is empty because Jesus, His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ leave heaven at that point which is shortly after the sixth seal. At the sixth seal the wrath of the Lamb is at hand and about to come down, but doesn't come down right when the sixth seal is opened or else it wouldn't talk about people being afraid of it and wanting to somehow avoid it. But, it comes down shortly after which is why there is silence in heaven at that point when the seventh seal is opened. The sounding of the seventh and last trumpet signals for His people to be gathered to Him and for His wrath to come down on all unbelievers at that point. It will all happen quickly once the 7th and last trumpet sounds.

It makes no sense.

None of the convoluted mess that you believe makes any sense. Two raptures? LOL. Talk about not making sense. That's as nonsensical as it gets. Paul wrote about one rapture and you completely butcher the text in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 to try to make it as if he wrote about two raptures, which he absolutely did not. Your blatant twisting of scripture to make it say what you want it to say is completely unacceptable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now this is an absolutely outstanding point.

You mention the Day of Atonement.

First off, the Church will be raptured before the last 3.5 years of the 70th week. There is only 3.5 years of the 70th week that is unfulfilled. The AOD will be set up in the middle of the week, and the Church will be raptured before that time.

When the AOD is set up, the great tribulation will begin. The dragon will go after Israel, but part of Israel will flee to the place of protection. When he can't get to the woman, he will go after her seed which is the 12 tribes across the earth. There are 144,000 first fruits of twelve tribes that let us know that the second fold will be of the 12 tribes. Jesus comes immediately after the tribulation at the 6th seal and raptures the 12 tribes across the earth.

There are still two days left or 2 years of the 7 years that begin when a 7-year covenant with many is signed.
The first year is the 7th seal one year wrath of God.
The second is the one-year Day of Atonement.

That said the final week has a day (year) of rest...........the Day of Atonement.

What a load of garbage. One year Day of Atonement? LOL. You make things up in your imagination. Also, the woman is not Israel. Your doctrinal bias clouds everything you read. It makes you spiritually blind.

The text in Revelation 12 indicates that the children of the woman are Jesus Himself and those who follow Him.

Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Who are "those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus"? Christians, of course. Those who are born of God. The church.

1 John 5:2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

The woman's offspring are Jesus and those who belong to Jesus. That is the church. The Israel of God. Spiritual Israel. Not the nation of Israel. Nowhere does it indicate that the woman's offspring include unbelieving Israelites.

Satan, who used to accuse believers before God in heaven day and night, was cast out of heaven long ago which is why Paul wrote that no one can accuse those who God has chosen anymore (Romans 8:31-34). The church has been protected from his wrath ever since. None of the time periods mentioned in Revelation are supposed to be taken literally. That shouldn't be hard to understand for someone who equates a day with a year in your imaginary one year day of atonement, whatever that is. Atonement for sins was made by Jesus already long ago, so there is no future day of atonement.

 

[Davy]

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic (as to insisting pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib timing). The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We all should be able to adopt the "watch rapture view".

Yes we DO NEED TO BE DOGMATIC with the written BIBLICAL TIMING given for when Lord Jesus comes to gather His Church. It is the very TOPIC of Lord Jesus' WARNINGS in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13! Same thing by Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2! and by Apostle John in Revelation!

Just WHAT is it that Lord Jesus commanded that we, His Church, watch? Who knows?

It should be obvious that Douggg doesn't know, otherwise he wouldn't be saying to not be so dogmatic about the time, and to just be ready.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I certainly do not agree with what you are saying.

I do agree there will be atonement.


After the Day of wrath which is one year there will be a Day of Atonement which is one year. Seems simple to me.

What future atonement can there be when Jesus already made atonement "once for all" long ago?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We have complete atonement now. Why are you looking to the future for atonement?

Heb 9
12 He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption.

27 And just as it is appointed and destined for all men to die once and after this [comes certain] judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.

Exactly. It is blasphemous for anyone to suggest that there is any need for future atonement.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, Jesus did not say anything in Matthew 24:42-51 regarding watching for His second coming.

Jesus said for us to watch (verse 42) and be ready (verse 44).

LOL. To watch and be ready for what? His second coming. Hello?

Matthew 24:42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

All of us though should be able to adopt the "watch rapture view". There is nothing to prove, nor disprove. We watch, be ready, and continue to watch.

What exactly do you think we need to watch for? How exactly do you think we make ourselves ready for it? I showed you scriptures related to that and you said nothing in response to those.

 

[Davy]

Well the rapture is one of the least written truths in Scripture so we should not expect much to be written on it and when.

Do you mean the PRE-tribulational rapture theory? There is NO pre-trib rapture theory written anywhere in God's Word. The disciplined Bible student can easily figure that out.

But there is the "caught up" event of the saints still alive on earth on the day Jesus returns, as written in 1 Thess.4:17 by Apostle Paul. But that says nothing about a 'pre-trib' rapture. Instead, it is given with the 1 Thess.4:13-16 verses before it that shows Jesus when He comes, will bring the saints that have already died with Him, and then those saints still alive on earth will be "caught up" to Him, and them, in the "air", at His descending to this earth. Nothing there written about that being prior to the tribulation.

BRETHREN IN CHRIST:
The word 'rapture' is NOT written in God's Word, and I refer to the manuscripts of God's Word. The word 'rapture' comes from a Latin translation of the Greek word harpazo which is translated to "caught up" in the KJV Bible.

What man's false Pre-trib Rapture Theory tries to do, is use that sole word 'rapture' as if it is referring to written Bible Scripture about a gathering of the Church PRIOR to the great tribulation. Truth is, there is NO SUCH IDEA written anywhere in God's Word, meaning a rapture BEFORE the "great tribulation".

This means, anytime Christ's future return is being referred to in God's written Word, it is about the very LAST DAY of this present world, which is even called 'the Day of The Lord' in many Bible Scriptures, to include events declared to occur on the last day. For example, Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 declares that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night", in which man's works will be burned up by God's "consuming fire".

We know by that then, that on that day, any working at the end by the beast, or by Satan, or by his workers on earth, will be over, done, no more, as God's consuming fire will end all that. And per Revelation 17:15, Lord Jesus warned us that He comes "as a thief". That means Lord Jesus by that linked the future day of His return with that "day of the Lord" timing on the last day of this world.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do not believe that is correct.

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The wrath of God is the 7th seal.

The great tribulation is not the wrath of God. The great tribulation is when Christians are killed for not taking the mark. The wrath of God is God punishing an unbelieving world.

Well you can believe what you wish, but I see no other biblical answer.

No, the tribulation starts at the end of the sixth seal! In the OT the term "The Day of the Lord" refers to the 70th week of Daniel over and over and over again!

Look what the people say after the sixth seal is opened:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

It will not be the church that is killed but "tribulation saints".

the beasts from the bottomless pit strikes down all people except the 144,000 Jews who have the seal of god on their forehead! That means tribulation believers will be tormented for the five months by these beasts from the abyss.

One part of the tribulation is to punish an unbelieivng world. But the most important part is found in three passages:

Dan. 9:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

See verse 17? It says the Day of the Lord has arrived! Not has come and gone!

Also from Joel:

31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

what happens before the day of the Lord is what is shown in verse 12.

Then when you look at the trumpets and bowls these are God pouring out wrath on the earth not Satan! All the next 2 sets of 7 judments come from heaven from the throne of god!

Ez. 20:33-38:

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Zechariah 13:8-9

King James Version

​

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

this is when the surviving nation of Israel gets saved as Paul declared in Romans 11.

 

[Davy]

No, the tribulation starts at the end of the sixth seal! In the OT the term "The Day of the Lord" refers to the 70th week of Daniel over and over and over again!

The "day of the Lord" phrase DOES NOT REFER TO THE 70TH WEEK of Daniel 9.


The "day of the Lord" REFERS TO THE LAST DAY OF THIS PRESENT WORLD. Here is proof...

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

I've seen man's FALSE pre-trib rapture theory TRY... to move the timing of that "day of the Lord" back to the time of "great tribulation" events!

How STUPID doing that is, since Peter shows the "day of the Lord" will come as a SURPRISE upon the whole world, and ALL OF MAN'S WORKS ON THE EARTH ARE BURNED UP ON THAT DAY! Now does that sound... like man's works are still going on when that "consuming fire" burns man's works off this earth?? NO! of course not! That's why Pre-trib Rapture's theory about when the "day of the Lord" happens is JUST STUPID!

Even in 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul also showed that "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" upon those who will be saying, "Peace and safety", meaning the deceived! He showed that is when a "sudden destruction" will come upon them. He was pulling that idea from the Old Testament prophets, like Isaiah, which shows that "day of the Lord" event is about the day of destruction of man's works on earth and the coming judgment.

But man's FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY tries to move that "day of the Lord" backwards in the timeline, to the start of the "great tribulation" JUST TO TRY AND SUPPORT THEIR FALSE PRE-TRIB RAPTURE THEORY!

 

[Douggg]

Just WHAT is it that Lord Jesus commanded that we, His Church, watch? Who knows?

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

[Davy]

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Still don't know, do ya Dougg? even though Lord Jesus showed... just what it is that His servants are to be 'watching'!

 

[Douggg]

Still don't know, do ya Dougg? even though Lord Jesus showed... just what it is that His servants are to be 'watching'!

Watch for Jesus coming for the rapture.