The "watch rapture view"

[The Light]

Oh, come on! Where exactly do you see a rapture in these verses? Did it float in on a cloud of wishful thinking? Because I’m reading judgment—specifically the wrath of the Lamb—and it's aimed right at His unfaithful church, not some fluffy, feel-good escape plan. Newsflash: this isn’t the end yet, it's the beginning of the reckoning.

Revelation 6:12–17
(12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
(13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
(14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
(15) And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
(16) And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
(17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Oh, come on! Are you unable to see that the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven at the 6th seal. Are you unable to see that the sun and moon are also darkened and the stars fall from heaven in Matthew 24. If a person has just the slightest bit of deductive reasoning, they should be able to figure that Jesus returns at the sixth seal and send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you understand who the stars of heaven are falling unto Earth?

Yes. Do you understand that those stars that fall from heaven at the 6th seal are the stars that fall from heaven in Matthew 24? That should tell you that the events that occur when the stars fall from heaven in Matthew 24, which is Jesus comes and send His angels for a harvest, occur at the 6th seal.

Who are the kings of the earth, the great men, rich men, etc. And just to add a cherry on top—the seventh seal in Revelation 8? It's about silence in heaven for about half an hour. That's it

So the kings of the earth and great men etc. hide in caves and in the rocks of the mountains and say to the mountains and rocks, fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. The great day of His wrath has come and who is able to stand when that 30 minutes of silence comes.

Oh gee, not that. Not a full 30 minutes of silence in heaven. Who will be able to stand the earth. Come on! You can't possibly believe this. Are you unable to see the 7 angels with the 7 trumpets of wrath and the 7 angels with the 7 vials of wrath? All you see is 30 minutes of silence, being the 7th seal wrath of God? You have been taught some baloney. Think for yourself. Use common sense if nothing else.

. Do you even understand what the silence in heaven is about? So is it the Second Coming? Nope. But sure, let’s keep trying to squeeze a “second rapture” theory out of thin air. Because apparently, that’s what Revelation is really about, right?

Do you even understand that the second coming occurs at the sixth seal? It is clearly marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. Jesus returns and gathers the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb, hence there is a great multitude in heaven after this rapture. Some of them come out of Great Tribulation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

For example. Before Christ left the planet He already said to watch for His return. Does this mean He could have returned the same day He left?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


Does this mean the same day Paul said/wrote these words, Christ could have returned that same day? In hindsight we know He didn't return that same day. But that's not the point. The point is, it was never possible to begin with.

Some insist that Christ can return at anytime, even today. But is that really true in light of that the Father has a time appointed for this, which means His return can't occur until this appointed time has arrived first?

Christ only returns one time, not multiple times. Therefore, when He returns this one time it has to involve the dead in Christ rising first followed by the rapture. These events do not happen multiple times at different times. They only happen one time.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


One can not apply this numerous times. It can only be applied one time, period.

Can Christ return today or even tomorrow, or even this week? Or even this year? Absolutely not, as in zero chance. It is impossible because the beast has to reign 42 months first, for example. Undeniably, this AI technology seen throughout the world is connected with the beast and false prophet. And it's just getting started. No way is Christ going to return before AI has a chance to run it's course first.

Anyone that insists Christ can return today or even tomorrow are flat out lying to you and are lying to themselves. This doesn't mean 5 years from now, or 10 years from now, assuming Christ hasn't returned by then, that the same is still true, that He can't return that same day nor the next day, either. It all depends on what has been fulfilled by the next 5 or 10 years.

But we are speaking of now. As of now there are still numerous things that need to be fulfilled before He can return. IOW, it's the same logic when Christ left the planet. It was impossible that He could return the same day He left or even the next day. There were still numerous things that have to be fulfilled before He can return. The same logic with what Paul wrote/said in 2 Thessalonians 2. It was impossible that Christ could return that same day or even the next day, in regards to when he wrote/said those words.

We are to watch for one return, not multiple returns happening at different times. Therefore, based on that alone, the chance for Pretrib being true is zero.

Jesus sitting on a cloud I. Rev 14 is not Jesus on a white horse in Rev 19.

Hard to wiggle out of that.

"One coming" debunked solidly

 

[Davidpt]

Well you can believe what you wish, but I see no other biblical answer.

No, the tribulation starts at the end of the sixth seal! In the OT the term "The Day of the Lord" refers to the 70th week of Daniel over and over and over again!

Look what the people say after the sixth seal is opened:

Why would you or anyone think great tribulation starts at the end of the 6th seal when the 5th seal already involves great tribulation? How can anyone, or why would anyone, disagree that the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 = great tribulation = the 42 month reign of the beast?

Apparently, the 7th seal is tripping you up? The 7th seal, IMO, is the beginning of the 6 seals not at the end of the 6 seals. The same way the 7th trumpet is the beginning of the 7 vials of wrath, not the end of them. Which then means the 7th seal leads to the beginning of the trumpets, and that the trumpets are also involving the first 6 seals, and that the 6th seal then leads to the beginning of the 7th trumpet, where the 7th trumpet then leads to the beginning of the last 7 vials of wrath(Revelation 16. Matthew 24:29).

Even if I'm not entirely correct about these things, which I might not be, I'm still more correct than you are since it is not reasonable that the 7th seal leads to the beginning of great tribulation when the 5th seal already involves great tribulation, thus tribulation is in the past when the 6th seal begins. Compare the 6th seal with Matthew 24:29. It's that simple. That verse clearly, undeniably shows, that as of the 6th seal, great tribulation is in the past.

The book of Revelation is not chronological from start to finish. A person attempting to interpret the chronology in Revelation correctly is at least going to be using Matthew 24 and the Discourse to do so. For example. Matthew 24:29 fits the 6th seal events. Which then means Matthew 24:15-26 fit the 5th seal events, thus great tribulation, thus the 42 month reign of the beast. Except you clearly contradict Matthew 24:29 if you insist that tribulation starts at the end of the 6th seal. If that is true then why doesn't Matthew 24:29 agree with you? Are you going to deny that Matthew 24:29 is involving the 6th seal?

Are you going to twist Matthew 24:29 and have it meaning great tribulation follows the fulfilling of that verse rather than already precedes the fulfilling of that verse? IOW, one can't have at the end of the 6th seal leading to one thing in Revelation then leading to something entirely different in Matthew 24. That is called a contradiction. Contradictions lead to incorrect interpretations not correct interpretations.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Watch for Jesus coming for the rapture.

What do you mean by that exactly? Watch the sky for Him to come? The watching is directly related to being ready, so how do we make sure we are ready for the rapture? Read passages like Matthew 24:42-51, Revelation 16:15, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:2-11 to find out.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus sitting on a cloud I. Rev 14 is not Jesus on a white horse in Rev 19.

Hard to wiggle out of that.

"One coming" debunked solidly

LOL. You've never debunked anything in your life. Jesus will neither be literally sitting on a cloud nor riding on a white horse when He comes, so your method of interpretation is utterly ridiculous. Both Revelation 14:14-20 and Revelation 19:11-21 refer to the one future coming of Christ from heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well you can believe what you wish, but I see no other biblical answer.

No, the tribulation starts at the end of the sixth seal! In the OT the term "The Day of the Lord" refers to the 70th week of Daniel over and over and over again!

Look what the people say after the sixth seal is opened:

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Jesus taught that what is described there will occur immediately AFTER the tribulation ends and you have that as the start of the tribulation ends. You can't possibly be more off base if you tried.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would you or anyone think great tribulation starts at the end of the 6th seal when the 5th seal already involves great tribulation? How can anyone, or why would anyone, disagree that the little season meant in Revelation 6:11 = great tribulation = the 42 month reign of the beast?

Apparently, the 7th seal is tripping you up? The 7th seal, IMO, is the beginning of the 6 seals not at the end of the 6 seals.

You can't refute nonsense with nonsense. You should have just stuck with pointing out how tribulation has already started before the 6th seal is opened to show that the 6th seal can't be the start of tribulation. To claim that the 7th seal is the beginning of the 6 seals makes as much sense as Douggg claiming that the 7th trumpet starts sounding even before the 5th trumpet does, which means it makes no sense at all.

The same way the 7th trumpet is the beginning of the 7 vials of wrath, not the end of them.

You are saying the 7th seal is the beginning of the first 6 seals. To be consistent, the equivalent of that would be saying the 7th trumpet is the beginning of the first 6 trumpets, not the 7 vials. Regardless, I believe you can't make any sense of the text unless you see the seals, trumpets and vials as all being parallel to each other.

Which then means the 7th seal leads to the beginning of the trumpets, and that the trumpets are also involving the first 6 seals, and that the 6th seal then leads to the beginning of the 7th trumpet, where the 7th trumpet then leads to the beginning of the last 7 vials of wrath(Revelation 16. Matthew 24:29).

Even if I'm not entirely correct about these things, which I might not be, I'm still more correct than you are since it is not reasonable that the 7th seal leads to the beginning of great tribulation when the 5th seal already involves great tribulation, thus tribulation is in the past when the 6th seal begins. Compare the 6th seal with Matthew 24:29. It's that simple. That verse clearly, undeniably shows, that as of the 6th seal, great tribulation is in the past.

Just stick to arguments like this that clearly refute his view instead of resorting to 100% nonsense like saying the 7th seal is the beginning of the first 6 seals.

The book of Revelation is not chronological from start to finish.

Right, but resorting to saying the 7th seal comes before the 1st seal is not the way to make sense of the chronology. I believe seeing the seals, trumpets and vials as all being parallel to each other is the only way to make sense of it. Jesus will return at the 7th and last trumpet. That is when the kingdom(s) of the world become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and the Son and when those who destroy the earth are destroyed and are judged, etc. And it's when our bodies will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-52). The seventh trumpet signals the end of the age when Jesus returns. You can't have a bunch of stuff happening after that. The 7th vial occurs at that time, not all 7 vials. The reason there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal is because no one is there. Jesus, His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ will have descended from there at that point which is parallel to the 7th trumpet and vial.

 

[Davidpt]

Jesus sitting on a cloud I. Rev 14 is not Jesus on a white horse in Rev 19.

Hard to wiggle out of that.

"One coming" debunked solidly

Unlike some of the rest of you I am not even convinced that that is meaning Jesus. For one, it contradicts Matthew 13:39 if it is supposed to be meaning Jesus. Does this mean JWs have been correct all along, that Jesus is not an uncreated God, that He is a created angel? After all, the verse below plainly says that the reapers are the angels, and that the one you think is meaning Jesus in Revelation 14, this one is clearly reaping. Therefore, this one is clearly an angel except Christ is not an angel, and that Christ sends His angels to do the reaping, not does the reaping with them. IOW, Christ sends His angels to do the reaping does not include Christ Himself also doing the reaping. Because if it does that means Christ is a created angel and that Christ, instead of giving orders to angels, angels are giving orders to Him. After all, the one you take to be meaning Christ in Revelation 14, another angel is giving orders to that angel telling him it's time to reap.



Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Nowhere in this verse does it ever, even remotely, include Christ being among the reapers.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


And verse 41 also undeniably proves it. Christ is the one sending angels to do this, which does not equal Christ doing this with the angels.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The seed of the woman is the twelve tribes across the earth.

Those that get victory sing the song Moses, they are Jews.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

The woman is described in Revelation 12. You ignore that Revelation 12 itself shows the seed of the woman as being Jesus Christ (verse 5) and those who belong to Him (verse 17). That is the church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Unlike some of the rest of you I am not even convinced that that is meaning Jesus. For one, it contradicts Matthew 13:39 if it is supposed to be meaning Jesus. Does this mean JWs have been correct all along, that Jesus is not an uncreated God, that He is a created angel? After all, the verse below plainly says that the reapers are the angels, and that the one you think is meaning Jesus in Revelation 14, this one is clearly reaping. Therefore, this one is clearly an angel except Christ is not an angel, and that Christ sends His angels to do the reaping, not does the reaping with them. IOW, Christ sends His angels to do the reaping does not include Christ Himself also doing the reaping. Because if it does that means Christ is a created angel and that Christ, instead of giving orders to angels, angels are giving orders to Him. After all, the one you take to be meaning Christ in Revelation 14, another angel is giving orders to that angel telling him it's time to reap.



Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Nowhere in this verse does it ever, even remotely, include Christ being among the reapers.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


And verse 41 also undeniably proves it. Christ is the one sending angels to do this, which does not equal Christ doing this with the angels.

Do you understand that Revelation contains a lot of symbolic text? Why do you take the text so literally?

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Who else but Jesus would be described as "the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown"? It's clearly referring to Jesus there. It just doesn't spell out that He uses His angels to do the reaping because this is symbolic text. We know from other scripture that He has His angels do the actual reaping. This particular text just doesn't spell that out for us. But, it's clearly referring to Jesus here since only Jesus is "the Son of man".

 

[Davidpt]

You can't refute nonsense with nonsense. You should have just stuck with pointing out how tribulation has already started before the 6th seal is opened to show that the 6th seal can't be the start of tribulation. To claim that the 7th seal is the beginning of the 6 seals makes as much sense as Douggg claiming that the 7th trumpet starts sounding even before the 5th trumpet does, which means it makes no sense at all.


You are saying the 7th seal is the beginning of the first 6 seals. To be consistent, the equivalent of that would be saying the 7th trumpet is the beginning of the first 6 trumpets, not the 7 vials. Regardless, I believe you can't make any sense of the text unless you see the seals, trumpets and vials as all being parallel to each other.


Just stick to arguments like this that clearly refute his view instead of resorting to 100% nonsense like saying the 7th seal is the beginning of the first 6 seals.


Right, but resorting to saying the 7th seal comes before the 1st seal is not the way to make sense of the chronology. I believe seeing the seals, trumpets and vials as all being parallel to each other is the only way to make sense of it. Jesus will return at the 7th and last trumpet. That is when the kingdom(s) of the world become the kingdom(s) of God the Father and the Son and when those who destroy the earth are destroyed and are judged, etc. And it's when our bodies will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-52). The seventh trumpet signals the end of the age when Jesus returns. You can't have a bunch of stuff happening after that. The 7th vial occurs at that time, not all 7 vials. The reason there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal is because no one is there. Jesus, His angels and the souls of the dead in Christ will have descended from there at that point which is parallel to the 7th trumpet and vial.

Are you serious? Do you not see that as of the 7th seal it then leads to the 7 trumpets? For example, do you seriously think Revelation 11 and the 6th trumpet pertaining to the 2Ws prophesying, then being made war against after they finish their testimony, is meaning after the 6th seal has already been fulfilled? If it instead is meaning before the 6th seal is fulfilled, it is then not remotely nonsense to propose what I proposed.

It is nonsense to propose that all 7 trumpets follow the fulfilling of the 6th seal, which would then mean everything recorded in Revelation pertaining to the trumpets fit between Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:30, which is complete nonsense. Not only is that complete nonsense, it is also complete nonsense to argue that Revelation is not chronological from start to finish then argue that all 7 trumpets follow the 6 seals but that none of the 7 trumpets involve any of the 6 seals. Are you going to then argue that the 6th seal does not involve the 7th trumpet? lol Where that alone proves what I am proposing.

What follows the 6th seal? The 7th seal. What follows the 7th seal? The 7th trumpet? No, the first trumpet followed by the other 6 trumpets. If anyone is speaking nonsense in this case, it is not me if you still disagree. It is you speaking nonsense in this case if you are still insisting that what I am proposing is nonsense.

 

[Davidpt]

Do you understand that Revelation contains a lot of symbolic text? Why do you take the text so literally?

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Who else but Jesus would be described as "the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown"? It's clearly referring to Jesus there. It just doesn't spell out that He uses His angels to do the reaping because this is symbolic text. We know from other scripture that He has His angels do the actual reaping. This particular text just doesn't spell that out for us. But, it's clearly referring to Jesus here since only Jesus is "the Son of man".

IOW, 'one sat like unto' is not a simile, or that it is a simile, except in this case it contradicts what a simile means?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Unlike some of the rest of you I am not even convinced that that is meaning Jesus. For one, it contradicts Matthew 13:39 if it is supposed to be meaning Jesus. Does this mean JWs have been correct all along, that Jesus is not an uncreated God, that He is a created angel? After all, the verse below plainly says that the reapers are the angels, and that the one you think is meaning Jesus in Revelation 14, this one is clearly reaping. Therefore, this one is clearly an angel except Christ is not an angel, and that Christ sends His angels to do the reaping, not does the reaping with them. IOW, Christ sends His angels to do the reaping does not include Christ Himself also doing the reaping. Because if it does that means Christ is a created angel and that Christ, instead of giving orders to angels, angels are giving orders to Him. After all, the one you take to be meaning Christ in Revelation 14, another angel is giving orders to that angel telling him it's time to reap.



Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Nowhere in this verse does it ever, even remotely, include Christ being among the reapers.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;


And verse 41 also undeniably proves it. Christ is the one sending angels to do this, which does not equal Christ doing this with the angels.

1) it says it is Jesus.
2) you are comparing Apples to oranges.

Your verse and Matthew is talking about after the millennium at the great white throne judgment, there is a separation of the inhabitants of Earth and the tares are bound up and thrown into the Lake of fire. So you kinda don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Davidpt]

1) it says it is Jesus.
2) you are comparing Apples to oranges.

Your verse and Matthew is talking about after the millennium at the great white throne judgment, there is a separation of the inhabitants of Earth and the tares are bound up and thrown into the Lake of fire. So you kinda don't know what you're talking about.

If you were an Amil rather than a Premil it would at least make sense to apply what I brought up per Matthew 13 to be meaning after the millennium. After all, that would not remotely contradict an Amil view. But it does contradict a Premil view since what I brought up per Matthew 13 is clearly involving the end of this present age and is not even remotely meaning a thousand years after Christ initially returned.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you serious?

The guy trying to claim that the 7th seal comes before the 1st seal is asking me this question? LOL!

Of course I'm being serious. Are you? I have a hard time believing that anyone can possibly be serious by claiming that the 7th seal comes before the 1st seal.

Do you not see that as of the 7th seal it then leads to the 7 trumpets?

Of course not. Hello? How many times have I told you that I believe the seals, trumpets and vials are parallel to each other? Many times, including again in that post. And you still ask me this question?

I told you why I believe there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal. Why do you think there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal?

For example, do you seriously think Revelation 11 and the 6th trumpet pertaining to the 2Ws prophesying, then being made war against after they finish their testimony, is meaning after the 6th seal has already been fulfilled?

The 6th trumpet doesn't pertain to the two witnesses prophesying. Where do you get that idea from? The 6th trumpet is described in Revelation 9:13-21. Revelation 10 is then a parenthetical section, as is Revelation 11:1-13, which symbolically describes the preaching of the gospel during the NT time period by the church. Then it picks up from where it left off after the description of the 6th trumpet at the end of Revelation 9 by describing the 7th trumpet in the rest of Revelation 11. You are not recognizing how the book is formatted, so that is why you constantly get thrown off with the timing of things. You also make a mistake by interpreting all of the time periods literally.

If it instead is meaning before the 6th seal is fulfilled, it is then not remotely nonsense to propose what I proposed.

There is no possible way that claiming that the 7th seal occurs before the first 6 seals can make any sense whatsoever.

It is nonsense to propose that all 7 trumpets follow the fulfilling of the 6th seal, which would then mean everything recorded in Revelation pertaining to the trumpets fit between Matthew 24:29 and Matthew 24:30, which is complete nonsense.

Who is proposing that? Certainly not me. What straw man are you talking to this time?

Not only is that complete nonsense, it is also complete nonsense to argue that Revelation is not chronological from start to finish then argue that all 7 trumpets follow the 6 seals but that none of the 7 trumpets involve any of the 6 seals.

LOL! What in the world are you talking about? I never said any of this nonsense that you're saying here. I didn't come anywhere close to saying this foolishness that you're describing here.

Are you going to then argue that the 6th seal does not involve the 7th trumpet? lol Where that alone proves what I am proposing.

The 6th seal indicates that His coming is near and at hand, but He hasn't come quite yet at that point because it describes people wanting to hide from His wrath. He then delivers His wrath upon them with the 7th seal/trumpet/vial.

What follows the 6th seal? The 7th seal.

LOL. Have you changed your mind again? You were saying before that the 7th seal leads to the first 6 seals.

What follows the 7th seal? The 7th trumpet?

No, they happen at the same time. Do you not know what the word "parallel" means?

No, the first trumpet followed by the other 6 trumpets. If anyone is speaking nonsense in this case, it is not me if you still disagree.

You were saying that the 7th seal comes before the first 6 seals. That is what I am saying is nonsense. Are you now changing your mind or did you misspeak or what?

It is you speaking nonsense in this case if you are still insisting that what I am proposing is nonsense.

Only if you are still trying to say that the 7th seal comes before the first 6 seals. Is that what you believe or not?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

IOW, 'one sat like unto' is not a simile, or that it is a simile, except in this case it contradicts what a simile means?

What in the world are you talking about? Who is is like the Son of man except for Jesus? Try actually addressing what I said instead of asking ridiculous questions.

 

[Davidpt]

Do you understand that Revelation contains a lot of symbolic text? Why do you take the text so literally?

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Who else but Jesus would be described as "the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown"? It's clearly referring to Jesus there. It just doesn't spell out that He uses His angels to do the reaping because this is symbolic text. We know from other scripture that He has His angels do the actual reaping. This particular text just doesn't spell that out for us. But, it's clearly referring to Jesus here since only Jesus is "the Son of man".

The following is one veiew of Revelation 14:14. Personally, I favor it, which means the angel in question is not literally Christ Himself. Now there are no contradtions with anything in Matthew 13 when viewing it like that. When viewing it like this it does not contradict what a simile means. I can't speak for anyone else, but since the idea is to interpret things in such a manner where it leads to no contradictions, this is what I strive to do in ths case. If everyone else is fine with interpretations that are contradictory, that's on them not me in this case.

-----------------------
Symbolic Participation in Judgment
It’s possible the vision in Revelation 14 is symbolic of Christ’s authority over the harvest, even if angels carry out the actual process.

The “reaping” in Revelation may symbolize the command being executed under Christ’s authority, represented as if He Himself performs it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The following is one veiew of Revelation 14:14. Personally, I favor it, which means the angel in question is not literally Christ Himself. Now there are no contradtions with anything in Matthew 13 when viewing it like that.

You are not understanding that Matthew 13:36-43 involves what happens at the judgment and the separation of the wheat and tares should be compared to Matthew 25:31-46 where there is a separation of the sheep and goats for judgment.

That is a different context from Revelation 14:14-20. That passage can be compared to 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 where those who belong to Christ are caught up to Him in the air after which He then brings "sudden destruction" upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape".

So, Revelation 14:14-17 is describing the rapture while Matthew 13:36-43 describes people being separated for judgment. In each case it is Christ's angels who are doing the gathering by Jesus's command.

When viewing it like this it does not contradict what a simile means. I can't speak for anyone else, but since the idea is to interpret things in such a manner where it leads to no contradictions, this is what I strive to do in ths case. If everyone else is fine with interpretations that are contradictory, that's on them not me in this case.

It's contradictory to try to relate Revelation 14:14-17 directly to Matthew 13:36-43 because the former passage relates to the gathering and catching up of the church when Jesus returns while the latter passage relates to separating the righteous from the wicked to Jesus's right and left hands at the judgment that occurs just after that, as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.

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Symbolic Participation in Judgment
It’s possible the vision in Revelation 14 is symbolic of Christ’s authority over the harvest, even if angels carry out the actual process.

The “reaping” in Revelation may symbolize the command being executed under Christ’s authority, represented as if He Himself performs it.

What is your understanding of Revelation 14:18-20? If you think that Revelation 14:14-17 is related to judgment rather than to the rapture of the church, then that would mean you should relate Revelation 14:18-20 to the judgment rather than to the physical destruction of Christ's enemies that will occur at His second coming. Is that how you interpret Revelation 14:18-20?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Can you see in BLUE the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven. Can you see in BOLD BLACK the tribulation is over when the 6th seal is opened. The signs of the sun, moon and stars show us that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

The tribulation is not the wrath of God no matter how many preachers on TV tell you it is. The great tribulation is when Christians are killed for not taking the mark of the beast. The wrath of God is when God takes vengeance on an unbelieving world.

Can you not see the difference between the great tribulation and the wrath of God?

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Wow straining at gnats to swallow camels. If the nearest star (our sun) fell from heaven by one million miles closer- all life on eatth would cook!

And as is written all these things will happen before teh great and terrible time of the Lord! as said in Joel and Revelation

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The day of the Lord occurs at Armageddon.

The day of wrath last one year and begins when the 7th seal is opened. The day of the Lord occurs at the end of that year.

Nope. Look at teh OT prophets and learn the Day of the Lord- Day means a time period in this case. Yom has many meanings and context determines which meaning. Like in Genesis 1 we know YOM means a 24 hour day.

You have the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls happening in one year? wow! we know that in the midst of the trumpets Israel flees the land and is provided for 1260 days! that is a lot longer than a year.