The "watch rapture view"

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
4,675
443
83
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Actually it's one of many keys to understand Rev. The seals only show events that will happen in the trumps.
Well, that would be impossible as the 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of God wrath

All the seals were opened when Christ ascended in the first century.
None of the seals are opened

If they were opened, you would know who the rider on the white horse is as He is the 7th king.



The seals are knowledge of future events only.
Here's some knowledge.

The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows of Mathew 24
The fifth seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24
The 7th seal is the trumpets and vials of wrath which are not shown in Matthew 24.

John has a vision of the seals being opened in order, one by one. When each seal is actually opened the event will occur.
Trumps are events that actually happen when a trump sounds.
The trumpets can't happen until the 7th seal is opened.

Seals always protected information, while trumps always were used to tell others to take immediate action.
Right. The seals will not be opened until the Church is raptured before the great tribulation. This is the first fold.
The seed of the woman Israel, the twelve tribes across the earth are raptured at the 6th seal.
The 7th seal is the wrath of God. Two witnesses, the woman Israel who is in her place of protection, and unbelievers are the only ones on the earth when the 7th seal is opened.

The two folds become one fold and are the great multitude that are in heaven for the marriage supper during the one year wrath of God.
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
7,773
3,438
113
75
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Sure, the Jews tore down their own city and their own Temple. You can't possibly believe this. Well maybe you can.

Covenantee............Is the 7 year covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27 the covenant you are under?
"While the Romans would have won the war in any case, the Jewish civil war both hastened their victory and immensely increased the casualties. One horrendous example: In expectation of a Roman siege, Jerusalem's Jews had stockpiled a supply of dry food that could have fed the city for many years. But one of the warring Zealot factions burned the entire supply, apparently hoping that destroying this "security blanket" would compel everyone to participate in the revolt. The starvation resulting from this mad act caused suffering as great as any the Romans inflicted."

Sure, the Zealots' mad act was all peace and love, and not one Jew perished. Of course you believe that.

Daniel 9:27 is the Covenant that every True Believer is under. It was first confirmed "with many" Israelite believers: by Christ for 3 1/2 years leading up to Calvary, then for 3 1/2 years after Calvary by His disciples; then with all believers when the Gentiles were included in the Gospel.

Scripture doesn't lie.
History doesn't lie.
Pre-1800 orthodox Christianity doesn't lie.
Grammar doesn't lie.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

Spiritual Israelite

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2022
16,902
6,856
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Sure, the Jews tore down their own city and their own Temple. You can't possibly believe this. Well maybe you can.

Covenantee............Is the 7 year covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27 the covenant you are under?
Regardless of who did the actual destroying of the city and the temple, the Jews were responsible for the destruction of their own city and temple, so there is a sense in which they destroyed their own city and temple.

Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: covenantee

ewq1938

Mod
Staff member
Jul 11, 2015
8,494
1,698
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Well, that would be impossible as the 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of God wrath

They aren't part of the 7th seal. They just are introduced in the same chapter.


None of the seals are opened

If they were opened, you would know who the rider on the white horse is as He is the 7th king.

No, they are all opened so that knowledge is "unlocked" for us.


Here's some knowledge.

The first four seals are the beginning of sorrows of Mathew 24
The fifth seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24
The 7th seal is the trumpets and vials of wrath which are not shown in Matthew 24.

John has a vision of the seals being opened in order, one by one. When each seal is actually opened the event will occur.


The events don't occur when opened and they are not opened in chronological order of the events either.



Right. The seals will not be opened until the Church is raptured before the great tribulation.

The rapture does not happen then but the false christ might produce a false rapture which will really be the Apostasy.
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
4,675
443
83
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
I'm missed the part where the Jews destroyed the city of Jerusalem and their own Temple. Could you highlight that for me?

Daniel 9:27 is the Covenant that every True Believer is under. It was first confirmed "with many" Israelite believers: by Christ for 3 1/2 years leading up to Calvary, then for 3 1/2 years after Calvary by His disciples; then with all believers when the Gentiles were included in the Gospel.
Could you post the chapter and verse that show the 3 1/2 years after Calvary? I can't find anything to support this.
Scripture doesn't lie.
Your interpretation of scripture seems skewed. Maybe when you show me what chapter and verse shows the 3.5 years after Calvary, I will get a better understanding.
History doesn't lie.
I guess you have never heard "History is written by the victors"
Pre-1800 orthodox Christianity doesn't lie.
Men lie.
Grammar doesn't lie.
Well then I guess you can produce the 7 year covenant that Jesus confirmed.

Any covenant that God makes is everlasting and not 7 years long.

You seem to value a colon over common sense and truth.
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
4,675
443
83
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Regardless of who did the actual destroying of the city and the temple, the Jews were responsible for the destruction of their own city and temple, so there is a sense in which they destroyed their own city and temple.
The Word says that the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. As far as I know it is the Romans that destroyed the city and sanctuary, so word games don't cut it.

Additionally, this is talking about the 3rd Temple that is not built yet.


Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
There is still one stone upon another in the buildings of the Temple.
Matthew 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, 2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. 7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Wow this is stretch. I think you are going to come up with more proof than this that the Jews destroyed their own city and Temple.

The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
7,773
3,438
113
75
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
I'm missed the part where the Jews destroyed the city of Jerusalem and their own Temple. Could you highlight that for me?
So your definition of the destruction of Jerusalem excludes the destruction of its inhabitants.

Could you explain that for us?
Could you post the chapter and verse that show the 3 1/2 years after Calvary? I can't find anything to support this.
Jesus was crucified in 30 AD/CE.

Paul was converted about 3 years later, marking the beginning of the end of the last 3 1/2 years, and the beginning of Gospel ministry to the Gentiles.

He was converted to faith in Jesus Christ about 33 ce

Up to that point, Gospel ministry by the disciples was still primarily confined to Israel.
I guess you have never heard "History is written by the victors"
I guess you are unaware that Daniel, Christ, Matthew, Mark, and Luke were and are victors.
So never believe yourself or any other man.
Any covenant that God makes is everlasting and not 7 years long.

You seem to value a colon over common sense and truth.
Jesus' Everlasting Covenant was first confirmed with Israel for 7 years.

You seem incapable of understanding that.

But attempting to contort Christ into antichrist explains that incapability. :laughing:

I value Scripture, history, and grammar over Scofield dispensational futurized gibberish.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Here's a riddle for you. :laughing:

Q: Why did the Judaean Christians flee?
 
Last edited:

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
4,675
443
83
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
They aren't part of the 7th seal. They just are introduced in the same chapter.
How can you possibly think that the 7th seal is silence in heaven for 30 minutes. Look out the seventh seal is about to be opened and there will be silence in heaven. How is that affecting the earth? You've got everything where you want it instead just reading what the Word says and believing it.

It would be like claiming that the first seal is behold a white horse. Wait a minute, what about the rider with a bow going forth conquering and to conquer. Oh no, skip that, the first seal is just beholding a white horse. Do you see how much sense that makes?

No, they are all opened so that knowledge is "unlocked" for us.
No seals are opened. John has a vision of what will happen when the seals are opened. Why is that so difficult to understand. If the seals were opened, you would know who the 7th king is.
The events don't occur when opened and they are not opened in chronological order of the events either.
Of course, the events occur when the seals are opened. Do you not see how illogical it is for the seals to not happen in order. The trumpets happen in order. The vials happen in order, and the seals happen in order.

The rapture does not happen then but the false christ might produce a false rapture which will really be the Apostasy.
Well, if he was going to produce a false rapture then I guess millions of people will disappear. Where are the going?

Satan has put a plan in effect to explain away the rapture. It started in the 1950's with cigar shaped objects flying around. In the 60's and 70's it was "beam me up Scotty". Countless movies and shows with people disappearing and aliens being responsible. Look at the Avengers movies. All designed to explain away the coming rapture.
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
4,675
443
83
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
So your definition of the destruction of Jerusalem excludes the destruction of its inhabitants.

Could you explain that for us?
Sure, I can explain that. First off, the food in your example was destroyed so the people would revolt against the Romans. They were not acting with the Romans. The Jews were trying to save their Temple and city.

Caligula threatened to destroy the Temple, so a delegation of Jews was sent to pacify him. To no avail. Caligula raged at them, "So you are the enemies of the gods, the only people who refuse to recognize my divinity." Only the emperor's sudden, violent death saved the Jews from wholesale massacre.


Now let's get to the truth. Your definition of the destruction of Jerusalem excludes the destruction of the city and the sanctuary, while the Word of God says that the people of the prince that shall come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.

So can you explain how you eliminate those that destroy the city and sanctuary, and then claim the destruction was from the Jews?



Jesus was crucified in 30 AD/CE.
Yep
Paul was converted about 3 years later, marking the beginning of the end of the last 3 1/2 years, and the beginning of Gospel ministry to the Gentiles.
So what year was the Gentile Cornelius converted? This blows a hole in your above statement.

The final 3.5 years of the 70th week of Daniel has not occurred. We can see the final 3.5 years right here.

Daniel 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
He was converted to faith in Jesus Christ about 33 ce

Up to that point, Gospel ministry by the disciples was still primarily confined to Israel.

I guess you are unaware that Daniel, Christ, Matthew, Mark, and Luke were and are victors.
And when was Cornelius converted?
So never believe yourself or any other man.

Jesus' Everlasting Covenant was first confirmed with Israel for 7 years.
You are grasping at straws with terms like ABOUT 3 YEARS with no specifics for the last 3.5 years. Here are the specifics

Daniel 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

You seem incapable of understanding that.
I am capable of understanding that you spend your time defending a fallen doctrine that was birthed by unbelieving men that did not believe that God would keep His promise to Israel. But Israel was reborn just as the Word of God said it would be.

But attempting to contort Christ into antichrist explains that incapability. :laughing:
Truth is you are attempting to claim that the Jews destroyed their own city and their sanctuary when it is obvious to anyone that the Romans were responsible for this destruction.
I value Scripture, history, and grammar over Scofield dispensational futurized gibberish.
If you want to lie to yourself and stick to your guns that the Jews destroyed their own city and their sanctuary, that's up to you. As for me, I am unable to lie to myself.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Here's a riddle for you. :laughing:

Q: Why did the Judaean Christians flee?
A: The abomination of desolation has not been set up yet and the great tribulation has not occurred yet.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
5,490
439
83
77
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
The seals will not be opened until the Church is raptured before the great tribulation.
The seals on the book of the end times were already opened by Jesus back when John was taken to heaven. John recorded everything. So we know what events the opening of the seals revealed.

But none of the events of the seals have begun yet.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a summary of the events to take place of the first six seals....

The rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, begins the 7 years. Initially a time of peace and safety, false messianic age. The first seal.

When he commits the transgression of desolation act, the peace and safety ends, and war breaks out, the rider on the red horse. The great tribulation begins during the time of the rider on the red horse. The second seal.

During the great tribulation, there will be rampant inflation, and 666 implemented to buy or sell. The rider on the black horse. The third seal.

As the great tribulation continues, there be wide spread dying, due to war, starvation, animal predation. The rider called Death on the pale horse. The fourth seal.

In heaven, the martyred great tribulation saints request Jesus to avenge their deaths. The fifth seal.

Near the end of the great tribulation the shaking of the powers of heaven and the appearance of of the Son of man in heaven. The sixth seal.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


As you noted, the events of the seventh seal are about the trumpet plagues of the great tribualtion.



the seven seals g.jpg
 

The Light

Well-Known Member
Mar 11, 2022
4,675
443
83
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
The seals on the book of the end times were already opened by Jesus back when John was taken to heaven. John recorded everything. So we know what events the opening of the seals revealed.

But none of the events of the seals have begun yet.
Douggg, this is just incorrect.

And when He had opened the second seal, the event happens. No seals are opened or these events will happen. If the first seal was opened we would know who the rider on the white horse. We don't know............the seals are not opened.

Revelation 6

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a summary of the events to take place of the first six seals....

The rider on the white horse, the Antichrist, begins the 7 years. Initially a time of peace and safety, false messianic age. The first seal.

When he commits the transgression of desolation act, the peace and safety ends, and war breaks out, the rider on the red horse. The great tribulation begins during the time of the rider on the red horse. The second seal.

During the great tribulation, there will be rampant inflation, and 666 implemented to buy or sell. The rider on the black horse. The third seal.

As the great tribulation continues, there be wide spread dying, due to war, starvation, animal predation. The rider called Death on the pale horse. The fourth seal.
These are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.
In heaven, the martyred great tribulation saints request Jesus to avenge their deaths. The fifth seal.

This is the great tribulation in Matthew 24

Near the end of the great tribulation the shaking of the powers of heaven and the appearance of of the Son of man in heaven. The sixth seal.

This is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal for the second harvest............seen here.

Revelation 14

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As you noted, the events of the seventh seal are about the trumpet plagues of the great tribualtion.
Douggg. The great tribulation is when the dragon goes after the seed of the woman Israel which is the 12 tribes across the earth. He can't get to the woman, so he goes after her seed which are the Jews around the world. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. The wrath of God is when God punishes an unbelieving and evil world. The 7th seal contains the trumpets and vials of wrath.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
5,490
439
83
77
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
No seals are opened or these events will happen.
Jesus opened to the seals to reveal what was in the book.

Opening of the seals did not initiate the actual beginning of the events back at John's time. It is the events of what the opened seven seals revealed that are still future.

Phrase your sentences using "the events of" of the first seal, second seal, third seal, etc. We are talking about "events of" to take place.
 

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
5,490
439
83
77
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
The trumpets do not happen in the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The trumpets and vials will not begin until the 7th seal is opened.
The great tribulation will be almost over when the sixth seal events take place. But not quite over. There will still be 45 days left of the great tribulation.

Revelation 6 - seals one, two, three, four, five, six. Those span the seven years to the day when the sign of the Son of man appears in heaven. Which then, there will be 45 days left in the seven years.

Revelation 8 - seal seven. The trumpets plagues to take place during the great tribulation time period.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Not, Revelation 6 - seals one, two, three, four, five, six, seven.

The trumpets plagues and vials of God's wrath are all during the great tribulation, that will begin in seal two, the rider on the red horse.

the seven seals g.jpg
 
Last edited:

Douggg

Well-Known Member
Nov 26, 2020
5,490
439
83
77
Memphis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
@The Light

Here is a timeline chart of events that show the riders on the white horse, the red horse, the black horse, the pale horse. The great tribulation of 1335 days ends the day that Jesus returns.

The 7 years 2.jpg
 

TribulationSigns

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2023
2,708
951
113
56
Somewhere west of Mississippi River
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is the same recycled premillennial chart-driven speculation Douggg keeps pushing—again and again. It’s built on timelines and diagrams, not on sound biblical exegesis. Nothing could be further from the truth of Scripture. Dressing up assumptions in colorful charts does not make them biblical.

200w.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: Spiritual Israelite

ewq1938

Mod
Staff member
Jul 11, 2015
8,494
1,698
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
How can you possibly think that the 7th seal is silence in heaven for 30 minutes.


That's literally what it says.


Look out the seventh seal is about to be opened and there will be silence in heaven. How is that affecting the earth? You've got everything where you want it instead just reading what the Word says and believing it.

It would be like claiming that the first seal is behold a white horse. Wait a minute, what about the rider with a bow going forth conquering and to conquer. Oh no, skip that, the first seal is just beholding a white horse. Do you see how much sense that makes?


Not a good example since the second seal means all before it was the first seal. We don't have an 8th seal to show what is and is not in the 7th.


No seals are opened. John has a vision of what will happen when the seals are opened. Why is that so difficult to understand. If the seals were opened, you would know who the 7th king is.


You are not understanding that the seals show things that will happen when the rtrumps sound. Nothing happens when a seal is opened except a vision of the future.


Of course, the events occur when the seals are opened. Do you not see how illogical it is for the seals to not happen in order. The trumpets happen in order. The vials happen in order, and the seals happen in order.


Not the seals. They are opened in a dif order. The AC does not come first showing Christ did not open seal number 1 first.


Well, if he was going to produce a false rapture then I guess millions of people will disappear. Where are the going?

To the clouds likely to imitate the real rapture.



Satan has put a plan in effect to explain away the rapture. It started in the 1950's with cigar shaped objects flying around. In the 60's and 70's it was "beam me up Scotty". Countless movies and shows with people disappearing and aliens being responsible. Look at the Avengers movies. All designed to explain away the coming rapture.

Or that's how a false rapture happens.