There is no rapture

[WhiteKnuckle]

I can see how some say that those that believe in rapture are in danger of following the AC. But, now that I think about it... Who are the ones that will follow him? Are they genuine followers of Jesus Christ? No. Are there genuine followers of Jesus Christ that believe in Rapture? Yes. Is everyone that is not a follower of Jesus Christ going to follow the AC? No. Is God going to send a strong delusion to genuine followers of Jesus Christ even if they believe in a rapture? No. Is God going to send strong delusions to those who don't want to follow Jesus Christ? Yes. Are there genuine followers of Jesus Christ that will fall away simply because there isn't a rapture? No. Is there any trust in the sanctification of our souls through the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ? Apparently not much. So, in the bible we get those that don't want to believe, those are the ones turned over to a depraved mind, who traded the truth of God for a lie. They're the ones that chose their own desires over God. Not just a momentary weakness or giving in to temptation. These are the ones that decided, no, that's not what they want. God will send them strong delusions, that they will believe a lie. It's not going to come to those who believe in rapture if they are genuine followers of Jesus Christ.

 

[gumby]

Ok you have proven your point and i respect that but let me prove mine. If jesus were to return this very day and he gave you the option of A. follow me and help defeat antichrist with me or B. Accept this fraud that comes down to earth and performs miricles just like jesus.......theres only one catch though satan will use any and evry man made lie he can work in our churches. I ask you whiteknuckle would you choose A or B. Keep in mind though the bible tells us there are many many antichrists into this world already. But theres only one that evryone will follow after standing in the light claiming to be christ. Matthew 24:5, Matthew 24:23, Matthew 24:24, Matthew 24:26, Mark 13:6, Mark 13:21, Mark 13:22, Luke 21:8, 2nd Thessalonians 2:3. Antichrist will come preaching the same false message, rapture out of here with me you dont have to fight you can fly away with me. God despises fly away theories and the whole rapture myth was developed in 1831 by some sick woman.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Selfishly if there were a choice, to be raptured out and have it all done. Yes, I would chose the rapture. Personaly It's not a great thought to have to face so much evil. I'm not so sure that's selfish either though. Jesus prayed, "Father if there be another way.." As it stands, there is nothing in the bible that says rapture to me. I've a similar conversation about the "elect". Matthew 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 2 Thessalonians 2And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Now, if we look at just these two verses we can see. A genuine follower and believer will not be lead astray. At least not permanantly. And most certainly the Lord will reveal the AC to them. My biggest concern with the whole rapture idea is not peoples motives, or that they might believe that the AC is Jesus. I'm afraid of the hurt and disapointment they will feel. Another deep concern is for new believers. Some who might not see rapture written in the word of God, but are told there is one. It just creates confusion and makes their baby steps harder and it's not needed. It will hurt them when looking for answers later on. I have no doubt that the same Spirit that is in those who don't agree with rapture is in those who do believe in rapture. Why they're allowed to believe it is beyond me. But, there's a good reason. Someone mentioned the idea of it being a comforting deal because they can't face the true word of God concerning things of this nature,, that makes sense. Face it,, being raptured out to be with the Lord for ever and not having to face any hardship is a beautiful wonderful dream. No doubt there will be several things going for rapture believers during the tribulations. The Lord will lead them into all truths as He promised He would. Either by His Spirit, or by other believers that have known there is no rapture. I am afraid they may think they're damned when they're still around, but mostly I think they'll just sit back and remember all the scriptures and say,, "OOOHHHH

 

[Jordan]

...Is everyone that is not a follower of Jesus Christ going to follow the AC? No. ...

Oh brother, you can't be serious when you say this... this must be a joke... That is not what my bible says!

 

[Christina]

Matthew 24[/B]For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 2 Thessalonians 2And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Now, if we look at just these two verses we can see. A genuine follower and believer will not be lead astray. At least not permanantly. And most certainly the Lord will reveal the AC to them. My biggest concern with the whole rapture idea is not peoples motives, or that they might believe that the AC is Jesus. I'm afraid of the hurt and disapointment they will feel. Another deep concern is for new believers. Some who might not see rapture written in the word of God, but are told there is one. It just creates confusion and makes their baby steps harder and it's not needed. It will hurt them when looking for answers later on. I have no doubt that the same Spirit that is in those who don't agree with rapture is in those who do believe in rapture. Why they're allowed to believe it is beyond me. But, there's a good reason. Someone mentioned the idea of it being a comforting deal because they can't face the true word of God concerning things of this nature,, that makes sense. Face it,, being raptured out to be with the Lord for ever and not having to face any hardship is a beautiful wonderful dream. No doubt there will be several things going for rapture believers during the tribulations. The Lord will lead them into all truths as He promised He would. Either by His Spirit, or by other believers that have known there is no rapture. I am afraid they may think they're damned when they're still around, but mostly I think they'll just sit back and remember all the scriptures and say,, "OOOHHHH

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I see what you're saying. I agree there will be a falling away. The Lord said, none of this will happen until there is a falling away. What we don't seem to be taking into account here about some of this is, that there are people who claim to believe. They go to church, they wear the right clothes, say the right things. They think they're perfect, and for the most part, don't repent because they don't think they do anything wrong. A good example of that would be the likes of Benny Hinn and his false ministry. That's where we get,, "Lord Lord, didn't we do many great works in your name" But, in other scriptures it's said that people preach out of jealousy or just for money,, "puffed up in vain imaginations" All that are given to the Lord will not fall away. I'm not talking about the OSAS doctrine on this. But, the ones who don't recieve the love for the truth and the Word will be sent strong delusions. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here. To me it almost seems defeatist. That there's realy only gonna be 144,000 that last through the tribulations. By my calculations,, Everyone on this forum is gonna be lost if the tribulations start tomorrow. No doubt that it's going to be a "time of peace and safety" But, that's the guise. Christians will be put to death, and in droves. That's not saying we're getting wrath or that we're unrepentant. I still don't see that the Lord will send strong delusions to His genuine followers and believers. To me that just doesn't make sense. I don't see it in the Word either. I

 

[Christina]

[quote name='WhiteKnuckle;73137]I see what you're saying. I agree there will be a falling away. The Lord said' date=' none of this will happen until there is a falling away. What we don't seem to be taking into account here about some of this is, that there are people who claim to believe. They go to church, they wear the right clothes, say the right things. They think they're perfect, and for the most part, don't repent because they don't think they do anything wrong. A good example of that would be the likes of Benny Hinn and his false ministry. That's where we get,, "Lord Lord, didn't we do many great works in your name" But, in other scriptures it's said that people preach out of jealousy or just for money,, "puffed up in vain imaginations" All that are given to the Lord will not fall away. I'm not talking about the OSAS doctrine on this. But, the ones who don't recieve the love for the truth and the Word will be sent strong delusions. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here. To me it almost seems defeatist. That there's realy only gonna be 144,000 that last through the tribulations. By my calculations,, Everyone on this forum is gonna be lost if the tribulations start tomorrow. No doubt that it's going to be a "time of peace and safety" But, that's the guise. Christians will be put to death, and in droves. That's not saying we're getting wrath or that we're unrepentant. I still don't see that the Lord will send strong delusions to His genuine followers and believers. To me that just doesn't make sense. I don't see it in the Word either. I[/QUOTE'] Where does it say Christians are going to be put to death in droves?? Stop and think about how many Christains today believe they are going to be Rapture away What % do you think it is ?How many understand the tribulation is going to be for a lot of time a time of peace and prosperity ?? What % How many are as you say pretend/or mislead/misguided Christains like the Benny hill group type ?what %

 

[gumby]

[quote name='WhiteKnuckle;73137]I see what you're saying. I agree there will be a falling away. The Lord said' date=' none of this will happen until there is a falling away. What we don't seem to be taking into account here about some of this is, that there are people who claim to believe. They go to church, they wear the right clothes, say the right things. They think they're perfect, and for the most part, don't repent because they don't think they do anything wrong. A good example of that would be the likes of Benny Hinn and his false ministry. That's where we get,, "Lord Lord, didn't we do many great works in your name" But, in other scriptures it's said that people preach out of jealousy or just for money,, "puffed up in vain imaginations" All that are given to the Lord will not fall away. I'm not talking about the OSAS doctrine on this. But, the ones who don't recieve the love for the truth and the Word will be sent strong delusions. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here. To me it almost seems defeatist. That there's realy only gonna be 144,000 that last through the tribulations. By my calculations,, Everyone on this forum is gonna be lost if the tribulations start tomorrow. No doubt that it's going to be a "time of peace and safety" But, that's the guise. Christians will be put to death, and in droves. That's not saying we're getting wrath or that we're unrepentant. I still don't see that the Lord will send strong delusions to His genuine followers and believers. To me that just doesn't make sense. I don't see it in the Word either. I[/QUOTE'] Its very simle dear whiteknuckle, god sends delusion because he wants to see and test who has the seal of god in there forhead. Ephesians 1:13 and Revelation 9:4 Antichrist wont be able to touch those who have the seal of god in there forhead because god gave antichrist orders not to. And the seal of god is basically how one retains and how one knows the bible. Thats why i teach so feirce is because i see a lot of lost people and i want to help level them up to gods truth. God bless :)

 

[Christina]

very true gumby I wish more would understand this is a test for all mankind ..... To be raptured away would mean one fails the test by default If one team doesnt show up for the scheduled game they lose by default so it with God there but one harvest ..and the first taken are the Tares ..we are to stay working in the field (world)

 

[gumby]

very true gumby I wish more would understand this is a test for all mankind ..... To be raptured away would mean one fails the test by default If one team doesnt show up for the scheduled game they lose by default so it with God there but one harvest ..and the first taken are the Tares ..we are to stay working in the field (world)

Well what can i say i try to do my part to spread gods truth. God bless you :)

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Bear with me here,, I can't figure out how to post the links to the Bible quotes so, I'm just posting the book and chapter. Revelation 7, shows people that came out of the tribulation. Revelation 20:4, shows those who were beheaded. Now, seems to me that's a bunch of headless people. According to the Word, it's not believers that are getting the strong delusions that they would believe a lie. That ain't no test. That goes against the rest of the Scriptures. Why would God send a delusion to His own people? Actually, the AC will be given power to overcome and to kill the Believers. Revelation 13:7, shows that the Beast is given power to overcome and kill the saints. I think we may be getting mixed up between Gods wrath on the earth, and martyrdom of the saints. Some people think that cause God let's someone get murdered that it's judgement for their sins, or that it's Gods wrath. If it's murdered for the Gospel the exact opposite is true. They're counted worthy and great is their reward in heaven. Luke 6:23 is one verse that explains that, and there's another that I can't seem to find. Look again at 2 Thessalonians 2because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. That doesn't describe believers by any means. It certainly doesn't describe God sending delusions to believers as a test. No doubt believers will be tested by watching people fall away. And, believers will be tempted to go that route too. And, some might fall away. But, it will be by their choice, not because of the delusion. As far as the 144,000 I'm not even going to discuss that at this point. So far I ain't seen one single solitary reasonable explaination of who these people are. At this point it's all specualtion.

 

[Jordan]

because they received not the love of the truth[/B], that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. That doesn't describe believers by any means. It certainly doesn't describe God sending delusions to believers as a test. No doubt believers will be tested by watching people fall away. And, believers will be tempted to go that route too. And, some might fall away. But, it will be by their choice, not because of the delusion. As far as the 144,000 I'm not even going to discuss that at this point. So far I ain't seen one single solitary reasonable explaination of who these people are. At this point it's all specualtion.

With all due respect, The AC is not given power to kill believers. And Revelation 13:7 does not say what you think it is.Revelation 9:4 - And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.Revelation 9:5 - And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.Revelation 9:6 - And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.As far as 144,000 people... These are the people who has the Seal of God in their forehead.Each tribe will be sealed 12,000. All those twelve tribes...Revelation 7:4 - And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.Revelation 7:5 - Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.Revelation 7:6 - Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.Revelation 7:7 - Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.Revelation 7:8 - Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.These are the people who has the seal of God in their forehead...Blessings

 

[Christina]

because they received not the love of the truth[/B], that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. That doesn't describe believers by any means. It certainly doesn't describe God sending delusions to believers as a test. No doubt believers will be tested by watching people fall away. And, believers will be tempted to go that route too. And, some might fall away. But, it will be by their choice, not because of the delusion. As far as the 144,000 I'm not even going to discuss that at this point. So far I ain't seen one single solitary reasonable explaination of who these people are. At this point it's all specualtion.

Well fIrst of all lets rightly divide the word here to get our bearings Rev. 20 takes place after Christ has returned and the millieum has begun 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. These are all those through out time who were wittness for God How many are there we do not know how many have died for Christ/God in the last 6000 years? This does not prove Christains die by the masses in the tribulation. Only that some may be among them Lets look at Rev. chapter 13 Revelation 131And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. This is the first beast and its a One World system /New World Order the ten horns are powers /kings(leaders ) 3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. One of these Heads/ kings/ countires receives a deadly wound ans Antichrist(Satan heals the dealy wound and makes all things better and and all the world wondered after the beast. The second beast is Antichrist(Satan) Now he has the worship of the world because he healed the deadly wound Daniel 8:22-24 tells us that Satan comes in peacefully, and prosperous, and those within his system will have the same prosperity. 4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Now the world thinks he is christ because he perfoms miaracles and lying wonders 5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (this is 3 1/2 years)He is claiming to be christ this is blasphemies 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. This is a spiritual war against the two wittness's and the saints and all people and languages and nations rememember he was order he could not hurt kill the saints with the seal of God The only war that exists now will be a spiritual war, a war of words, ideas, concepts, and doctrine. This is why we must have our full armor of God on, as recorded in Ephesians 6:10-20. It spells out the type of warfare and the armor necessary. Satan has power over all other peoples of the earth, because he rules the over his one world system. he was ordered he could not hurt kill the saints with the seal of God 4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. So again this is not about killing its about a delusion because the world believes a lie ....WHAT LIE ????? THAT THIS FAKE IS CHRIST 　The scriptures do not say masses of Christains will die ...This is part of the Rapture lie of men and hollywood in fact God tells you exactly what will happen to some in fact he makes a promise here to believers 10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. Now some will suffer tribulation 10 days some may even die but this is not masses as you said the others will be put on trial and they are told God will speak through them Mar 13:11 But when they shall lead [you], and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Because of what will be said through these believers many will be saved I do not believe that its just 144,000 but many many but the fact remains that there is no Rapture /there is no mass killings / the tribulation is a flood of lies but if we do not learn these things we will not be prepared for whats about to befall mankind 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; This is antichrist himself he must be revealed first before our gathering to the Lord this is the subject of this chapter 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Only one has ever dared set himself above God that is Satan himself I can support this with scripture after scripture put it all in context but to understand what God says one must forget all the lies of men and hollywood its never going to happen as they say I did a study with scripture on this tribulation if you want to read http://biblestudy.madmooseforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=260

 

[Adstar]

I do not believe God will send strong delusions to ones who are true Christians. The scripture says that to those whom He does send strong delusions to they will all be condemned. Anyone who is placed in that situation will believe the lie and be condemned. So it cannot be seen as some kind of test that one may pass or fail. Once God sends you strong delusion, your doomed.2 Thessalonians 29 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.While this delusion will come upon false Christians who have rejected the Love of the Truth, No such delusions will be put upon True Christians who believe Jesus.As for the 144000 and the ones told not to bring harm to them.This is happening during the time of the wrath. It is not satan delivering these woes to earth but Angels of God. Revelation 7 1 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: 5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed; 6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed; 7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed; 8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.These 144000 are the remnant of the Jews. I don't believe they are Christians at all.I believe the scriptures show clearly that true followers of Jesus will be killed during these times and that the method of killing will be beheading. Revelation 13 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.Who will be refusing to worship the beast? True Christians that’s who.next verse states:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Who will not receive the Mark of the Beast? True Christians that’s who.So who is going to be beheaded for refusing to worship the beast and refusing to take the mark of the beast? Read on:Revelation 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands.It is clear to me that during the tribulation true Christians will face death for their witness to Jesus. All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

2 Thessalonians 2[/B]9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. While this delusion will come upon false Christians who have rejected the Love of the Truth, No such delusions will be put upon True Christians who believe Jesus. As for the 144000 and the ones told not to bring harm to them. This is happening during the time of the wrath. It is not satan delivering these woes to earth but Angels of God. Revelation 71 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed. These 144000 are the remnant of the Jews. I don't believe they are Christians at all. I believe the scriptures show clearly that true followers of Jesus will be killed during these times and that the method of killing will be beheading. Revelation 13 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. Who will be refusing to worship the beast? True Christians that’s who. next verse states:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Who will not receive the Mark of the Beast? True Christians that’s who. So who is going to be beheaded for refusing to worship the beast and refusing to take the mark of the beast? Read on: Revelation 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. It is clear to me that during the tribulation true Christians will face death for their witness to Jesus. All Praise The Ancient of Days

Thank you! I should learn to be more articulate. Cristina I will give a concession to some of what you say though. You're right about this whole deal about peace and prosperity. I agree. It will seem peaceful to everyone but the believers. It's not going to be some mad max type of world, and it's not going to be chaos like we would see in a movie. It's all very subtle. And, just like with Hitler,, his followers didn't know anything about the camps, and everything with them was peace and tranquility. Even before the war, the Jews were in Chaos. So, as I see it,, The world will be at peace, but those of us who follow Christ will be in turmoil. It'll be very disturbing to us to see people following the AC and how sin runs rampant. The type of disturbance we'll have aside from persecution, is much like what Paul had in Greece. When he was walking around looking at all the statues to the gods. It bothered him, but the Greeks thought they were being good in honoring all the gods so they didn't leave any out or their believers out. But, to Paul, it was troubling to his sould and his mind.

 

[Christina]

2 Thessalonians 2[/B]9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. While this delusion will come upon false Christians who have rejected the Love of the Truth, No such delusions will be put upon True Christians who believe Jesus. As for the 144000 and the ones told not to bring harm to them. This is happening during the time of the wrath. It is not satan delivering these woes to earth but Angels of God. Revelation 71 After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed. These 144000 are the remnant of the Jews. I don't believe they are Christians at all. I believe the scriptures show clearly that true followers of Jesus will be killed during these times and that the method of killing will be beheading. Revelation 13 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. Who will be refusing to worship the beast? True Christians that’s who. next verse states:16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Who will not receive the Mark of the Beast? True Christians that’s who. So who is going to be beheaded for refusing to worship the beast and refusing to take the mark of the beast? Read on: Revelation 20 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. It is clear to me that during the tribulation true Christians will face death for their witness to Jesus. All Praise The Ancient of Days

Rev. 7:1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land [or earth] or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. Later reference is made to a differentiation between those who have been sealed and those who have not been sealed. Rev. 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. You can not have a condratiction of killing and not killing ? Therefore its us that has misunderstood a thing Gods word has no contradictions. The delusion and the tribulation is upon the entire World its a One World government and a one World religion ... And I agree Christains who do not follow antichrist may not always have an easy time ...But this is exactly where faith come in God has promised to protect us ... Not with a Rapture ..but the way he has protected all his children throughout all history of this age. This is the test so to speak do you trust your father to keep you safe? or do you trust men who have so little faith they make up lies of Rapture and tell you not to bother learning Gods Word ???....If its father you trust to protect you then we had better learn what He says about these times not what men say .... This is my concern many are so convinced that we will have Choas and that Mad Max world that men and hollywood push upon us they will not see the truth of Gods word on this subject ... We may not all entirely agree of exactly how things will come down ... But lets discuss what God says .. Not fairy tells of men and Mad Max and Pre trib Rapture. To hear God Word We must learn to get the whole truth of a subject to put it in proper context not just base our conclusions and understanding on a verse here and there .... P.S. Whiteknuckle and Adstar this will not be suttle nor does the opinon many believers wont be taken in by the delusion hold water thats the point it will be so amazing that were it possiable even the very Elect of God would be fooled had not God shortened the time .... If the very Elect had to be resecued by God by this shortening the time what chance do the regular Christains who believe their Rapture lie and never bothered to learn what Gods Says have ?????? Mat 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mar 13:20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. So how do we battle this war for our souls .... Learn Gods Words and put on our spiritual armour .... Great faith will be required. There is no need for fear God has told us this. We are to trust him There is great need for truth and understanding so that one is prepared. So their faith does not waver. God has foretold us all things are we listening?As Philip was traveling , the Holy Spirit led him to a man who was reading a portion of Isaiah. Philip approached the man, saw what he was reading, and asked this very important question: “Do you understand what you are reading?” (Acts 8:30). Philip knew that understanding was the starting point for faith. Without understanding the Bible, we cannot apply it, obey it, or believe it.However neither should we delude ourselves this is no big thing ...It is what the Entire Bible has lead up too its the very culmination of Gods plan the divideing of the sheep and the goats .. seperating the Wheat from the chaff Mat 24:21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[Adstar]

From what scriptures say to me i believe that the principle persecuters of true Christians will be false christians who believe that the anti-christ is Jesus and think they will be doing Gods work in killing us.John 162 They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service.I believe the time of peace and prosperity for the followers of the Anti-christ will be short however. All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Hi Christina :)

[or earth] [/I]or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel. Later reference is made to a differentiation between those who have been sealed and those who have not been sealed. Rev. 9:1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. You can not have a condratiction of killing and not killing ? Therefore its us that has misunderstood a thing Gods word has no contradictions.

When i look at the scriptures you have quoted i cannot see any contradiction. The time that they will not be causing the deaths of the followers of the anti-christ will be 5 months as quoted. This is only stating that they will not be killing them for a limited time period. This scripture does not contradict other scripture that states that many followers of the anti-christ will be killed. On the day of the Messiah's return He will confrount an army of 200million followers of the anti-christ massed on the plains of Meggedo and he will destroy them all.

The delusion and the tribulation is upon the entire World its a One World government and a one World religion ... And I agree Christains who do not follow antichrist may not always have an easy time ...But this is exactly where faith come in God has promised to protect us ... Not with a Rapture ..but the way he has protected all his children throughout all history of this age.

I agree with you in that i do not believe in the pre-tribulation rapture, scripture tells me that there will be Christians on earth right up to the day of the Messiahs return. I believe God will perserve His true followers, but not from persection of death of the flesh. He will preserve our faith and trust Him Him. He will preserve our place in eternity with Him. When you think of it thats the only thing of true eternal value. :) Jesus tells us about the end times:Matthew 244 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[a]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.Once again the real protection, the real preserving we need is our belief and trust in the atonment that Jesus has gained for us unto death.

This is the test so to speak do you trust your father to keep you safe? If its father you trust to protect you then we had better learn what He says about these times not what men say ....

Yes i do trust in God to keep me secure, Securty that is eternal. But Jesus said about our lives in this world:John 1520 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. So for me the Gods protection and preservation is not about protection of life in the flesh or protection from the hatred of others or protection from the loss of pysical possessions. it is about the guarding of my mind against deception and the giving me of streght and peace of mind to face whatever may come from those who have rejected the Love of the truth.

P.S. Whiteknuckle and Adstar this will not be suttle nor does the opinon many believers wont be taken in by the delusion hold water thats the point it will be so amazing that were it possiable even the very Elect of God would be fooled had not God shortened the time .... If the very Elect had to be resecued by God by this shortening the time what chance do the regular Christains who believe their Rapture lie and never bothered to learn what Gods Says have ??????

Here Christina i see that you have used words from the scriptures linking referances to the shortening of time of the wrath of God and the elect of God being guarded from deception. I cannot see that the shortening of time of the wrath of God is related to God preventing true Christians form being decived by the great deception of the anti-christ. Mat 24:22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The elect will rule on earth with Jesus during the 1000 years after the Messiah's return. They will be ruling flesh human beings. While the saints will no longer die and shall live through all the 1000 years, there will be others who will live and die as before decendants of those who have survived the wrath of God. They shall live and die as before.

So how do we battle this war for our souls .... Learn Gods Words and put on our spiritual armour .... Great faith will be required. There is no need for fear God has told us this. We are to trust him

Yes fear is the enamy, But Jesus revealed to us:Matthew 1028 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.As Redeemed people who have eternity with God we should fear death at the hands of anti-christs or persecution.

There is great need for truth and understanding so that one is prepared. So their faith does not waver. God has foretold us all things are we listening?

And the concern i have is if people's faith is in being kept from persecution and execution then what will happen to their faith in God when they face such things? All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[mjrhealth]

If you need to convice yourself that rapture is real, then its a lie, for its the truth that brings offense, when you believe a lie, and he truth needs no defense,in His Love

 

[Im4GOD]

I have to disagree with the lot of you although the actual term Rapture is not mentioned in the Bible there is a verse that may help to explain the blessed event please check out http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:50-55&version=KJV