This is both sad and confirming

[Dunamite]

False Statements Before War, Study Sayshttp://news.aol.com/story/_a/false-stateme...123065109990001By DOUGLASS K. DANIEL,Posted: 2008-01-23 07:07:24WASHINGTON (Jan. 23) - A study by two nonprofit journalism organizations found that President Bush and top administration officials issued hundreds of false statements about the national security threat from Iraq in the two years following the 2001 terrorist attacks.The study concluded that the statements "were part of an orchestrated campaign that effectively galvanized public opinion and, in the process, led the nation to war under decidedly false pretenses."The study was posted Tuesday on the Web site of the Center for Public Integrity, which worked with the Fund for Independence in Journalism.White House spokesman Scott Stanzel did not comment on the merits of the study Tuesday night but reiterated the administration's position that the world community viewed Iraq's leader, Saddam Hussein, as a threat."The actions taken in 2003 were based on the collective judgment of intelligence agencies around the world," Stanzel said.The study counted 935 false statements in the two-year period. It found that in speeches, briefings, interviews and other venues, Bush and administration officials stated unequivocally on at least 532 occasions that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction or was trying to produce or obtain them or had links to al-Qaida or both."It is now beyond dispute that Iraq did not possess any weapons of mass destruction or have meaningful ties to al-Qaida," according to Charles Lewis and Mark Reading-Smith of the Fund for Independence in Journalism staff members, writing an overview of the study. "In short, the Bush administration led the nation to war on the basis of erroneous information that it methodically propagated and that culminated in military action against Iraq on March 19, 2003."Named in the study along with Bush were top officials of the administration during the period studied: Vice President Dick Cheney, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and White House press secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan.Bush led with 259 false statements, 231 about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and 28 about Iraq's links to al-Qaida, the study found. That was second only to Powell's 244 false statements about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and 10 about Iraq and al-Qaida.The center said the study was based on a database created with public statements over the two years beginning on Sept. 11, 2001, and information from more than 25 government reports, books, articles, speeches and interviews."The cumulative effect of these false statements - amplified by thousands of news stories and broadcasts - was massive, with the media coverage creating an almost impenetrable din for several critical months in the run-up to war," the study concluded."Some journalists - indeed, even some entire news organizations - have since acknowledged that their coverage during those prewar months was far too deferential and uncritical. These mea culpas notwithstanding, much of the wall-to-wall media coverage provided additional, 'independent' validation of the Bush administration's false statements about Iraq," it said.END OF ARTICLEThere is no sight like hindsight. There is a poll at the aol link. It shows clearly that I am not alone. 78 % think that we were deliberately misled. I use a stronger word. Lied to. 80 % believe that the bad intelligence was either due to deliberate lies or a combination of lie and mistakes. This is also very telling. The poll sample is large 58,000+. If you knew then what you know now, how much different might things be?Blessings,Dunamite

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Personally, no matter how we really got to today, feel better with Hussein out of the picture than if he were still in it. So am going to say, even thinking we are knowing now what we did not know then, would want to see the same thing done - war or the threat of it (which did not work - twice) used to remove Hussein. If anything in hindsight wish they had a better what now afterwards plan, oh and followed through the first time so just one war. Just my opinion.

 

[BernieEOD]

(DrBubbaLove;32290)
Personally, no matter how we really got to today, feel better with Hussein out of the picture than if he were still in it. So am going to say, even thinking we are knowing now what we did not know then, would want to see the same thing done - war or the threat of it (which did not work - twice) used to remove Hussein. If anything in hindsight wish they had a better what now afterwards plan, oh and followed through the first time so just one war. Just my opinion.
I guess the anarchy we now have is better? HUssoen was only evil; in your eyes because he punished criminals rather than allow them top run free and kill again and again like we do here. The only thing you know about Saddam is what that 21" peephole tells you about him.

 

[Lunar]

I agree with Bernie. I do believe Hussein was evil and committed terrible acts, but Iraq simply isn't ready for a democracy, and no amount of military force can repair the damage that we've done there, or stop the inevitable sectarian violence that will emerge without a strong central government. There's far too much deep-seated, violent ideology in that region for a democracy to work out, and troops are not going to make these ideas go away.

 

[crooner]

DunomiteYour article is partly true. Dont blame Bush though. Everyone knows the whole world had the same misleading information on Iraq weapons of mass construction.So lots of thing looked lies but were true based on what they knew. This is common knowlege of both left and right. Just ahk Hillary!

 

[BernieEOD]

(BernieEOD;32310)
I guess the anarchy we now have is better? HUssoen was only evil; in your eyes because he punished criminals rather than allow them top run free and kill again and again like we do here. The only thing you know about Saddam is what that 21" peephole tells you about him.
Not true. In my auto mechanics class, we had a group of Iraqis who were here to learn a trade at the expense of the Iraqi Government. Their attitude towads Saddam was "Sure he can be mean! Just don't try to overthrow him, commit any major crimes, or incite others to hate him and you pretty much have it made". Sorry, but there is no Biblucal mandate to invade other nations and "Liberate them". We ourselves have our own problems and our permissive ways are not the answser to what you consider abnormally cruel.

 

[BernieEOD]

(crooner;32381)
DunomiteYour article is partly true. Dont blame Bush though. Everyone knows the whole world had the same misleading information on Iraq weapons of mass construction.So lots of thing looked lies but were true based on what they knew. This is common knowlege of both left and right. Just ahk Hillary!
While I would never be a Catholic, I'm going to have to go with the Pope on this one. We are in no poition to dictate to tohers what weapons they can or cannot have while we ourselves have the worlds largest stockpile. For those of you who believe we are some rightious nation who is better than others, there is no room in God's word for such arrogance.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Seems people said similar things about Adolf in trying to keep us out of the war. Saddam was given plenty of warnings by most of the world, yet still defiant. He even invaded his neighbor. No, am still glad he is out of the picture.

 

[TenderTrue]

This is such a difficult topic to discuss. One one hand, we, humanity, are so much better with Hussein out of this world. On the same hand, we have kept the terrorists from attacking the USA further, and from attacking Israel in greater force, because we have demonstrated a show of force with our actions. On the other hand, many innocent people, including children, have died due to either our actions or the actions of terror groups, who have retaliated against the people of Iraq, because of our presence. On that same bad hand, we have tremendous loss within our own country. We have lost so many freedoms, and we don't even recognize it, we have lost so many lives, but they're not being discussed. We have lost our ability to communicate with many people of other nations, because they see us as evil. There are many of them who actually believe that we are the antichrist, here in the USA. That's horrible. It really is. Still, Iraq is better off without Hussein, and we are better off knowing that the terrorists, wherever they are, whoever they are, have a good understanding of our ability to fight back, even to the death. Americans are tough, a lot tougher than we seem to be, and the reason for that toughness is that we bond together like a huge family, when we're attacked. At those times it doesn't matter if we're black, white, hispanic, asian, arabic, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, even Atheist. We act like a scattered hillbilly family that's defending it's land from thieves. "We may not all like each other, but we'll darn tootin' come together to fight off the likes of you!" This is America. This is who we are. It becomes hard to see that, when we're all bickering about our differences, but anybody comes against us, and we're a family again, just like any other family.In looking at all of this, there is no way to tell who to trust. Do we trust our government. Do we trust statements from those who claim superior knowledge. All we, as Christians, know for sure is that we can always trust God. We must put our eyes on Him, and ask Him to help us. We must ask Him to move through the people in our country to help us better protect Israel, because His word says that any who come against her, will fall. So we must be part of those who will protect Israel, and who will stand with her. We must also get the people of our own nations to see the truth that is in Jesus Christ. We must also reach out to the needy, whether they are homeless, hungry, sick, in our country or other countries. These are things that we, as Christians, must do. All the rest, we can only pray for, because we cannot keep those in government from making the decisions they make. We vote them in, but unless there are millions upon millions of us, screaming to stop an action, we just have to pray for God's intervention. It doesn't matter if the president is liberal, moderate, or conservative. They all have their own agenda. We must stick to ours, which is keeping a personal relationship with Christ, first on our list, and leading others to Him.That's my opinion, fwiw.

 

[BernieEOD]

(DrBubbaLove;32421)
Seems people said similar things about Adolf in trying to keep us out of the war. Saddam was given plenty of warnings by most of the world, yet still defiant. He even invaded his neighbor. No, am still glad he is out of the picture.
Saddam is out, anarchy, sectarian violence with Islamofacist areas of control coupled with westerners trying to impose godlessness upon all of this.Hitler was a directr product of the Treaty of Versales. Europe created Hitler, Europe deserved Hitler.

 

[BernieEOD]

(TenderTrue;32442)
This is such a difficult topic to discuss. One one hand, we, humanity, are so much better with Hussein out of this world. On the same hand, we have kept the terrorists from attacking the USA further, and from attacking Israel in greater force, because we have demonstrated a show of force with our actions. On the other hand, many innocent people, including children, have died due to either our actions or the actions of terror groups, who have retaliated against the people of Iraq, because of our presence. On that same bad hand, we have tremendous loss within our own country. We have lost so many freedoms, and we don't even recognize it, we have lost so many lives, but they're not being discussed. We have lost our ability to communicate with many people of other nations, because they see us as evil. There are many of them who actually believe that we are the antichrist, here in the USA. That's horrible. It really is. Still, Iraq is better off without Hussein, and we are better off knowing that the terrorists, wherever they are, whoever they are, have a good understanding of our ability to fight back, even to the death. Americans are tough, a lot tougher than we seem to be, and the reason for that toughness is that we bond together like a huge family, when we're attacked. At those times it doesn't matter if we're black, white, hispanic, asian, arabic, Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, even Atheist. We act like a scattered hillbilly family that's defending it's land from thieves. "We may not all like each other, but we'll darn tootin' come together to fight off the likes of you!" This is America. This is who we are. It becomes hard to see that, when we're all bickering about our differences, but anybody comes against us, and we're a family again, just like any other family.In looking at all of this, there is no way to tell who to trust. Do we trust our government. Do we trust statements from those who claim superior knowledge. All we, as Christians, know for sure is that we can always trust God. We must put our eyes on Him, and ask Him to help us. We must ask Him to move through the people in our country to help us better protect Israel, because His word says that any who come against her, will fall. So we must be part of those who will protect Israel, and who will stand with her. We must also get the people of our own nations to see the truth that is in Jesus Christ. We must also reach out to the needy, whether they are homeless, hungry, sick, in our country or other countries. These are things that we, as Christians, must do. All the rest, we can only pray for, because we cannot keep those in government from making the decisions they make. We vote them in, but unless there are millions upon millions of us, screaming to stop an action, we just have to pray for God's intervention. It doesn't matter if the president is liberal, moderate, or conservative. They all have their own agenda. We must stick to ours, which is keeping a personal relationship with Christ, first on our list, and leading others to Him.That's my opinion, fwiw.
Noit true. we have not kept terrorists from attacking us. They can attack again if they want but they have us right where they want us. Playing the part of an evil invader imposing godlessness upon the Ilsamic world. You are puttin a linear spin on a non linear form or warefare. Allowing kids to form gangs, use drugs, rape, rob, and murder while teens are allowed to have sex and abort thier unwanted babies is not humane.When it comes to killing innocent civilians, the USAF wins hands down. Only when we atomic bomb entire cites, fore bomb cites and then spray the fleeing people with diesel fuel, or cluster bomb people, somehoiw thats ok.A nation opg godless perverts is in no position to judge Saddam or any other leader. Moses was just as cruel and I suppose if we were around back then, you would want him bombed out of this world too.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If this great satan is such a bad place, have you ever considered moving?

 

[BernieEOD]

(DrBubbaLove;32604)
If this great satan is such a bad place, have you ever considered moving?
First, there is no law requireing one to leave the country if one refusesd to join the ranks of cjeering chickenhawks.Second. Since there is no legal means for you to call upon me to be thrown out, who is going to enforce it? You? Someone whop talks tough while sending others to war is hardly a threat.I prefer to work on the plank in our own eye rather than join you and your kind in pointing to the spec in the eye of others.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

(BernieEOD;32780)
First, there is no law requireing one to leave the country if one refusesd to join the ranks of cjeering chickenhawks.Second. Since there is no legal means for you to call upon me to be thrown out, who is going to enforce it? You? Someone whop talks tough while sending others to war is hardly a threat.I prefer to work on the plank in our own eye rather than join you and your kind in pointing to the spec in the eye of others.
Interesting. I ask if you have ever considered moving as you see it as so bad and you assume I want you thrown out, that I think it legal to do so, that I think you should join me in cheering and that I cannot see any need for change. Am not sure how any of these are supported from my simply asking that question.Neither these soldiers now or the many who have died before them did so in order to throw you out or enforce a particular ideology at home. In fact we did it to help protect your right to do just what you are doing. Will say that it has been my experience that most people claiming to show us how bad this nation is by the global actions of our miltary/government are not interested in either changing things in this country or really in anything at all except malcontent. They are merely objecting to the decision and maybe unhappy no one asked them or that most of us agreed with the people making these decisions. The same people are usually the loudest, first in line and sorriest asking for the very thing they object to when the problem directly touches their lives. Amazing how many gun control advocates pack after being mugged/robbed. How many doves become hawks after having a family member crushed in a tower 9-11. Conversely such events seldom make doves out of hawks. But then that has been my experience, doesn't mean it is yours.

 

[BernieEOD]

You are assuming that we are under the threat of losing our freedoms if we don.t bomb other nations into our godless ways...Not true. We have never been under the threat of an outside nation ever taking us over so to claim that the military is over there defending our freedom is a blatant lie.Most liberals who get mugged do not start packing, they merly call for the government to disarm more people. Easy to be a hawk when you send others to die and cheer from the sidelines. The point is that we calim to be such a great nation that it somehow our God given duty to invade others and force them to live our way. Our way is provong to be a godless slouch towards Gomorra. We believe it is cruel to execute rapists, robbers, and murderers. Cruel to have fathers kill thier imoral children. We want them to do things our way. Allow thier kids to run wild, give them condoms and clean needles and allow them to run in gangs. So when you want to alk about how great we are and how evil thay re and that we need to bomb them into submission, I will counter it.What am I doing about it? The best I can can starting with my own family. Only when I have a son in Law I am not ashamed of, grand children who have a mother and father, and other fruits of my own can I show others how to do it. Speaking of my family, as I look to see what threatens them, a bunch of guys dressed like lawrence of Arabia 8,000 miles away is not even on the radar scope. My three daughters are far more likly to be threatened by a punk rapist, drug dealer, or just some kid who wants to lead her astray than anything from another country. my weapons are more for use against a domestic threat than anything from abraod.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Obviously you have never been mugged or robbed. Calling the government would not be your first reaction or thoughts. Blaiming govt for not protecting you might come later, but that would not be first either.People that volunteer to serve are not sitting on the sideline, neither do they have to agree with the decisions of the people that send them. They do however have to believe in the country that sends them or they would not make good soldiers for that country.The 21" peephole you first refered to, if I and my fellow vetrans listened to it (unless one only listens to portions of FOXNEWS), it would have us believe as you do, that this country is not worth fighting for it, in fact it would be wrong to fight for it. Almost all the media is agreed that the US sucks, is wrong and not worth fight for. Believing that would make me and all these other volunteers insane to do what we have done. So am not sure who hear is listening to the peephole and who here has done anything about it. Could it be better? Sure. Could this world be better? Certainly. Would it be a better place if the only country in a position to force a change decided they did not have a moral responsiblity to use that power? (see Spidey I)

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Men that are secure in their masculinity and military service do not respond this way or even feel the need to. Not sure yet what your problem is.When do you imagine the US attacked a country because that country was evil? Desert Shield? Desert Storm? Fox? Thunder? Northern Watch? Joint Guard? Just Cause?

 

[Christina]

I deleted his rude post DrBubbalove sorry he spoke to you that way it was uncalled for

 

[BernieEOD]

(DrBubbaLove;32957)
Men that are secure in their masculinity and military service do not respond this way or even feel the need to. Not sure yet what your problem is.When do you imagine the US attacked a country because that country was evil? Desert Shield? Desert Storm? Fox? Thunder? Northern Watch? Joint Guard? Just Cause?
The problem is that the loudest voices for war copme from those who do not fight it. Real men don't talk tough while hiding behind others, they present their own bodies to fight.

 

[Christina]

The Bible says we are to follow civil Laws and that includes having a Military that we are to support thats Gods rule you dont like take it up with God all anceint civilizations including Israel had a military.