To deny that Christ has come in the flesh

[Prentis]

Hi all! :) I was looking at this today, and what it meant, and thought I post my thoughts.


1Jn 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Now, what I was looking at is what does it mean that Christ came in the flesh.
1. For in Christ the fullness of God dwells... (Colossians 2:9).
2. For in Christ the fullness of God dwells bodily... (Colossians 2:9).
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, (Hebrews 2:14)

So it means that Christ is fully God, and is in a body that is fully human, sharing the same weaknesses as us.

Now, the fullness of God dwelt in Christ. Paul tells his followers:
Ephesians 3:19
to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

If we, then, are fully man, and can be filled with the fullness of God, we can be like Christ! A reflection of his image!

To deny that in our human flesh, God can dwell fully and make us like Christ by the new creation that is in us, is to deny that Christ was fully human, and came in the flesh. He was fully God, and became fully human, we, being fully human, can be filled with the fullness of God, therefore being like us.

Do not misunderstand me; it is nothing to our glory, but it is the power of Christ in us. When people look, they say 'Here, what Christ can do in a man who is dead to himself'. All glory goes to him. But that is indeed how we glorify him, by being conformed to his image.

May God bless you all, and may he give us strength to persevere to the salvation of the soul! :)

 

[Insight]

How is God (Yahweh) who dwells in light unapproachable which no man can see nor has seen dwell in Human Flesh which Paul called "sin's flesh"? 1 Tim 6:16 & Rom 8:3

Maybe you need to ask a few more questions Prentis?

Can God be tempted James 1:13

Compare

Can Jesus be tempted Heb 4:15

Can God die? 1 Tim 6:15,16

Compare

Can Jesus die? Acts 2:31

You have a couple of issues with your theory to address.

Insight

 

[Duckybill]

Jesus/God in the OT:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

 

[Prentis]

How is God (Yahweh) who dwells in light unapproachable which no man can see nor has seen dwell in Human Flesh which Paul called "sin's flesh"? 1 Tim 6:16 & Rom 8:3

Maybe you need to ask a few more questions Prentis?

Can God be tempted James 1:13

Compare

Can Jesus be tempted Heb 4:15

Can God die? 1 Tim 6:15,16

Compare

Can Jesus die? Acts 2:31

You have a couple of issues with your theory to address.

Insight

Jesus could die and be tempted because he took on the flesh, and yet neither sin nor death had power over him.

If a man is filled with the fullness of God, as Jesus was, sin and death can have no power over him.

To deny that God has made a way through his son for us to be like him requires to deny either that the fulness of God can dwell in the flesh, and therefore making Christ an impossibility, denying that he came in the flesh.

It's very simple and straightforward :)

Jesus/God in the OT:

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)
10 I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.

Amen! Indeed, God rewards every man according to his works. :)

And if a man would do as Christ; crucify his flesh letting the will of the Father be done in him, then he will share in the glory of Christ!

 

[Insight]

death can have no power over him

Like I said and will say once again.

Rather than forcing your doctrine upon the Word andor defending Church dogma try listening to the Word and allow it to take you places you are yet to discover.

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:9

Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Rom 6:9KJV

knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship; Rom 6:9YLT

I really like YLT as it reveals the great battle Jesus fought within his life...a fight we must undertake also.

So one verse begs to differ with your understanding of Jesus Christ...and where there in one there are always more!

So what did you learn from this verse Prentis?

Death "had" dominion over Jesus Christ and for this reason Jesus could not ever possibly be God.

but if you said he was His son you would be correct.

Insight

 

[Prentis]

Jesus was not God?

1 Peter 1:1 To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
Either Jesus was God, or Peter is an idolater, take your pick ;)

John 20:[sup]28[/sup] Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

Thomas too! ;)

 

[Duckybill]

There's just no debating the fact that Jn 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

 

[Prentis]

There's just no debating the fact that Jn 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Yes. You'd think that's the MOST basic of Christianity. After all, if Jesus wasn't God, it would be idolatry to call our religion after his name, instead of God's.

You'd think anyone calling themselves on a christian forum would be in on that... Surprise :lol:

 

[Duckybill]

Yes. You'd think that's the MOST basic of Christianity. After all, if Jesus wasn't God, it would be idolatry to call our religion after his name, instead of God's.

You'd think anyone calling themselves on a christian forum would be in on that... Surprise :lol:

Interesting point.

 

[Insight]

There's just no debating the fact that Jn 1 The Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Yes emphasis on the word "became".

 

[Prentis]

Yeah. He was God, the word, and he became flesh. He went from up to down. What's your point? That very thing says he was already God! :)

Philippians 2 [sup]6[/sup] who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, [sup]7[/sup] but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Jesus is God, but he was willing to come down and be Immanuel, God with us, the people. He was God, dwelling fully in a man.

 

[Insight]

Jesus was not God? 1 Peter 1:1 To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: Either Jesus was God, or Peter is an idolater, take your pick ;) John 20:[sup]28[/sup] Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Thomas too! ;)

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself" through His very own Son (2 Cor 5:19)

I think you will find this answers your concerns.

Have you thought why Thomas called him Lord and God and why Jesus did not correct him?

2 Peter 1:1 many of the mss have "our Lord (kyrios) and Saviour". You are doing a little shifty here with 2 Peter 1:1???

Simeon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who did obtain a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1YLT

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ:

Nice twist there Prentis...The righteousness is found in both Father and Son no ruting this fellow believer.

Maybe you should see how the other Epistle are introduced? I can cite them for you if required.

Insight

 

[Duckybill]

Have you thought why Thomas called him Lord and God and why Jesus did not correct him?

Yeah, because it was true. Jesus taught Thomas for years. Thomas knew.

Peter knew also:

John 21:17 (NKJV)
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You."

 

[Prentis]

If he is just a servant, and not God, why does he not stop men from worshiping him? That would make him like the devil if he was ONLY a servant.

It's quite obvious, he is the Lord of Lords, and King of kings, and all things were made in him. It is God and none else.

But hey, you make a good subject example for the OP! :lol:

 

[Duckybill]

If he is just a servant, and not God, why does he not stop men from worshiping him? That would make him like the devil if he was ONLY a servant.

Another good point. A man of God would rebuke anyone who worshiped him, unless He really was God. Jesus received worship several times.

 

[veteran]

Hi all! :) I was looking at this today, and what it meant, and thought I post my thoughts.


1Jn 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Now, what I was looking at is what does it mean that Christ came in the flesh.
1. For in Christ the fullness of God dwells... (Colossians 2:9).
2. For in Christ the fullness of God dwells bodily... (Colossians 2:9).
Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, (Hebrews 2:14)

So it means that Christ is fully God, and is in a body that is fully human, sharing the same weaknesses as us.

Now, the fullness of God dwelt in Christ. Paul tells his followers:
Ephesians 3:19
to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

If we, then, are fully man, and can be filled with the fullness of God, we can be like Christ! A reflection of his image!

To deny that in our human flesh, God can dwell fully and make us like Christ by the new creation that is in us, is to deny that Christ was fully human, and came in the flesh. He was fully God, and became fully human, we, being fully human, can be filled with the fullness of God, therefore being like us.

Do not misunderstand me; it is nothing to our glory, but it is the power of Christ in us. When people look, they say 'Here, what Christ can do in a man who is dead to himself'. All glory goes to him. But that is indeed how we glorify him, by being conformed to his image.

May God bless you all, and may he give us strength to persevere to the salvation of the soul! :)

As long as you're not trying to say we can become our 'own' Christs, I'd then agree. The Gnostics sought to become 'like' Christ in the sense of being able to attain His status, for they did not see Him as God The Son, but only as a prophet with highly developed spiritual powers, as an ascetic mystic.

Paul is simply pointing to the gift of eternal Life through Christ Jesus, and all that it contains. But what Apostle John is speaking of is a different idea.

The idea John was speaking is about those who deny that God literally came in the flesh, because per the OT, the idea of The Christ is about God. That's why the name Immanuel (God with us) is given to Christ per Isaiah 7 and He is defined in Isaiah 9:6 as God. Thus God literally came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. Those who deny that are antichrists per John.

 

[Insight]

If he is just a servant, and not God, why does he not stop men from worshiping him? That would make him like the devil if he was ONLY a servant.

It's quite obvious, he is the Lord of Lords, and King of kings, and all things were made in him. It is God and none else.

But hey, you make a good subject example for the OP! :lol:

Good Question!

What did his Father give him? Heb 1:4

Do you believe Jesus already had this inheritance? if so, how could it be an inheritance?

Best we ask some more questions!

Insight

 

[Insight]

If he is just a servant, and not God,

Imagine that for a moment Prentis.

That God though the prophet Isaiah, dedicated Chapters 40 - 66 in focusing our thoughts on the suffering and final triumphant Servant of Yahweh.

One might not say "just" a servant.

Can I draw your attention to Isa 43:1 where we find God called his servant by name. Who named the Son? And who redeemed "gaal" him from the grave?

Isa 43:10 is speaking of Jesus Christ?

Isa 53:13 is speaking of Jesus Christ?

You see throughout these prophecies God has revealed how the many servants of Israel failed in the honorable position they were given. It is here that He compares them to His single servant, the Messiah, only of course to humble them before His presence.

If you hold the Trinity these teachings in Isaiah are lost on you. Yes you acknowledge the national servant of Israel, but the individual one you endeavour to deify. The first failed miserably See Isa 41:8; 42:19; 43:10; 44:1,21; 43:4; 43:20). And in doing so they were rebuked heavily in Isa 42:17-20.

But when God asks you Prentis to "behold My Servant" in Isa 42:1 you don’t see a servant, but a God. You cannot see that through His Son the works of the Father are manifest.

So where you state "just a servant"...Yahweh the God of all asks you to behold His suffering servant.

From your thoughts thus far you are yet to see him or see God's purpose of redemption in him.

You cannot fathom an obedient servant because you believe God was obedient to Himself.

Isa 52:13 I wonder if you can see that Jesus acted wisely and was raised lifted up and highly exalted.

Before posting meditate on the Servant passages of Isaiah 40-66 and see he was the lowliest of servants but given an inheritance because he suffered unto death. Heb 1:4

Insight

 

[Duckybill]

Guess you missed this:

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV)
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever.

 

[Prentis]

Guess you missed this:

Isaiah 9:6-7 (NKJV)
6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever.

Good catch, Ducky :) Truth, the Bible is full of it, Insight ;)

As long as you're not trying to say we can become our 'own' Christs, I'd then agree. The Gnostics sought to become 'like' Christ in the sense of being able to attain His status, for they did not see Him as God The Son, but only as a prophet with highly developed spiritual powers, as an ascetic mystic.

Paul is simply pointing to the gift of eternal Life through Christ Jesus, and all that it contains. But what Apostle John is speaking of is a different idea.

The idea John was speaking is about those who deny that God literally came in the flesh, because per the OT, the idea of The Christ is about God. That's why the name Immanuel (God with us) is given to Christ per Isaiah 7 and He is defined in Isaiah 9:6 as God. Thus God literally came in the flesh as Jesus Christ. Those who deny that are antichrists per John.

I absolutely agree; we should never become our own Christ! To declare a salvation of our own and the strength to be our own would be devilish.

But what we can declare, if we walk in it, is that it is no longer I who lives, but Christ lives in me. We must be conformed to Him, giving HIM the glory, because it is his work that has made us like Him. But obviously, we have a part to play. We must run the race, if we wish to attain the prize, Christ!