justaname
Disciple of Jesus Christ
- Mar 14, 2011
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Being this is away from the 1 John 3:9 subject I want to comment.Wormwood said:I agree that humans are helplessly wicked and are condemned in their sinful state. I believe that all humans are born with the marring of sin. I think these verses all testify to this and I agree with them.
What I do not agree with is that human beings are incapable of understanding good or accepting grace of their own volition. These verses do not teach this. In fact, the context makes it very clear that Paul (and God) expect that those who are lost and condemned in their sin to understand and accept God's grace in Christ. Consider how those verses continue:
The point Paul is making is that our sinful state does not allow us to find righteousness through legalistic observance. That ship has sailed and we all fail that test. Yet in our failing to uphold the law we become "conscious of sin." Moreover, righteousness can be found to all those who trust in Jesus Christ.
Notice it doesn't say that we cannot be conscious of our sin because we are dead in sin. Nor does it say that we obtain righteousness only through God's quickening initiative that permits us to put our trust in Jesus Christ. Rather, the law makes us "all" conscious of our sin and just as "all have sinned and fallen short" so too "(all) are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that game by Christ Jesus." The clear implication is that just as all are condemned in sin, so all can find righteousness through faith. This is not the case if most of humanity cannot find righteousness through faith because God will not allow them to see, hear or understand His grace in Jesus.
In sum, yes, all humans are hopelessly and helplessly lost in their sin. Their lives are full of wickedness and corruption and they cannot, by any means save themselves. Yet they CAN recognize what is good and they can understand the Gospel message and cry out for God's mercy in their lost state. To say they are so "dead" that they cannot even respond to the Gospel is to take that metaphor far beyond Paul's intent. This has nothing to do with "arrogance." It has to do with believing what the Bible says when it teaches that God desires all to be saved, that Jesus died for the entire world or that "anyone" could come to Jesus and find freedom and rest.
The OP concedes that both major streams of the Protestant movement held to the concept. So then it is the culmination of Scriptural evidence, the working of the Holy Spirit in the development of the reformation, along with my personal prayer and study that directs my position. Yet you do make valid arguments:
1. God desires all to be saved.
2. Jesus died not only for the sins of those being saved but for the sins of the world.
3. Jesus died so anyone could come to Him.
4. People can recognize what is good and understand the Gospel message and cry out for mercy.
Let me first agree with both points one and two. God does desire all to be saved. I think we both agree man with his desire to remain in sin and darkness is the hinderance. Jesus' atonement is applied to all of humanity, yet His justification is applied only to those who believe. I find these two concepts to be Scriptural.
Point #1 has a deeper element though that you did not explicitly express that if God allows some to receive the Gospel the He cannot desire all to be saved rather just some. Ultimately God is pictured as being unfair if He selects some for salvation. I see Romans 9 speaking to this argument, although I know you disagree. Similar to our other discussion in this thread you look to the broader argument where I see other theological implications within that argument. The doctrine of the Trinity is similar that there is not explicit scriptural teaching. No NT or OT author set out to make that exact argument.
Yet does that really make God unfair? Does that truly cancel God's desire for all to be saved if He only selects some? Are we to discard or seek theological go arounds for the plain reading of so much other Scripture to make a fair God? If God selects all for salvation where is justice? How does your view of God creating the world knowing some would perish due to their own volition differ; why not just create a world where all do come to Him? Why is God's desire for all to be saved the controlling factor for so much Scriptural interpretation? Why do you accept a plain reading for that verse and not for the mountain of other verses that speak to men being dead, men being slaves, men being blind and deaf from the Devil, God not opening the ears and eyes of men, men being unwilling to come to God, men not being able to understand spiritual things, men not being able to come to Him unless granted, God granting faith, God granting repentance, God granting belief, and so on?
(This volume of questions are not meant to be specifically and individually answered.)
Points 3 and 4 I simply disagree with. There is a vast amount of Scriptural evidence that contextually speak against these arguments.
There is another argument I have witnessed. {If God says believe it must be assumed people can come to belief.} I argue people have the ability just not the desire nor the will. They have the potential but their sinful nature is the hinderance. Their desires are wicked and reprobate and their minds are depraved. In a word they are in rebellion. Those who are rebelling against God are in league with Satan and have no inclination to obey any message from God let alone the Gospel. This does not mean men are not capable of moral actions, just that they are not driven from a desire to obey God. This then brings about judgement and condemnation.
Romans 1
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.