Total Depravity: Is it biblical?

[Wormwood]

Hey justaname,

Thanks for your response. Yes, I have many Scriptures that support my claim. First, let me address your passages:

I want to quote the entire context of 1 Cor. 2 and the beginning of 1 Cor. 3. I will color code the pronouns so you can follow the flow of what Paul is saying. I will comment directly after to try to explain how I understand this text...



“And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?” (1 Corinthians 2:1–3:4, ESV)

So, the first personal pronouns (I, we, our) are referring to the messengers of the Gospel (Paul, Apollos, Peter, etc.). These are the teachers who received revelation from the Holy Spirit and were sharing it with these people in Corinth.

The second person pronouns (you) are referring to the people in Corinth.

So, you see, this is a contrast. Paul is contrasting the heavenly message given by God's spokesmen to these Corinthians that have carnally turned it into a reason for division and factions. So, the contrast looks like this...

I came to you.
I preached Christ.
My message was not of worldly wisdom.
We impart spiritual wisdom.
God revealed this message to us through the Spirit.
We have the Spirit of God, not of this world.
We understand what has been given to us.
We impart what has been given to us with spiritual words taught by the Spirit.

Your faith should not rest in man's wisdom but God's
I cannot address you as spiritual.
I fed you milk
You aren't ready for milk
You are mere infants in Christ
There is still strife among you
You are of the flesh.
You are acting merely human.

So, whats the point? The point here is that this passage is not talking about believers vs non believers. This isn't about needing the Spirit to quicken them before they can understand the Gospel. No, it is saying that the messengers of God are men of the Spirit and they proclaim spiritual wisdom taught by the Spirit. They are not men seeking a following or their own glory. Yet, these Corinthians are infants in Christ (not non believers) who are unspiritual and worldly and therefore they have twisted the message to make it a reason for creating factions and fights (i.e. "I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow Cephas"). That is a worldly way of thinking and is not the mentality of these spiritual men who have proclaimed the Gospel.

As you can see, this passage has nothing to do with Total Depravity. It has to do with the messengers of the Gospel being very unlike the teachers of the ancient world who were carnal and only interested in debates and creating a bigger following than the other guy. Paul says, "NO! We are all servants of the Spirit and we are not preaching worldly wisdom that seeks our own following or glory! Yet because you are thinking carnally, you are missing the basics of the message we are sharing!"

I hope that clarifies things. Now, let me share a few passages (not an exhaustive list by any means) that I believe teaches that all people can see the light when it shines on them and are held accountable for rejecting what they knew to be good.

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.”” (John 3:18–21, ESV)

“If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father.” (John 15:24, ESV)

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.” (Romans 1:18, ESV)

“because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.” (Romans 1:25, ESV)

“For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members.” (Romans 7:22–23, ESV)

“And when they opposed and reviled him, he shook out his garments and said to them, “Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.”” (Acts 18:6, ESV)

“They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them” (Romans 2:15, ESV)

Anyway, that's just a few verses off the top of my head. Yet, beyond that, I think the overall context of Scripture assumes that people are responsible when they hear and reject the Gospel. I think the point of both the OT Law and the NT Gospel presupposes that they are good and holy...and God's wrath falls, not because people are incapable of understanding or accepting God's truth and holy standard, but because in their wickedness they reject it and desire to follow their own evil desires rather than what they know to be true. In fact Paul writes concerning the wicked...

“Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” (Romans 1:32, ESV)

So the picture here is not one of human ignorance due to being dead in sin, but human obstinance...knowing God's decrees and what is good and bowing their backs against Him.

 

[justaname]

Hey justaname,

Thanks for your response. Yes, I have many Scriptures that support my claim. First, let me address your passages:

I want to quote the entire context of 1 Cor. 2 and the beginning of 1 Cor. 3. I will color code the pronouns so you can follow the flow of what Paul is saying. I will comment directly after to try to explain how I understand this text...



“And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?” (1 Corinthians 2:1–3:4, ESV)

So, the first personal pronouns (I, we, our) are referring to the messengers of the Gospel (Paul, Apollos, Peter, etc.). These are the teachers who received revelation from the Holy Spirit and were sharing it with these people in Corinth.

The second person pronouns (you) are referring to the people in Corinth.

So, you see, this is a contrast. Paul is contrasting the heavenly message given by God's spokesmen to these Corinthians that have carnally turned it into a reason for division and factions. So, the contrast looks like this...

I came to you.
I preached Christ.
My message was not of worldly wisdom.
We impart spiritual wisdom.
God revealed this message to us through the Spirit.
We have the Spirit of God, not of this world.
We understand what has been given to us.
We impart what has been given to us with spiritual words taught by the Spirit.

Your faith should not rest in man's wisdom but God's
I cannot address you as spiritual.
I fed you milk
You aren't ready for milk
You are mere infants in Christ
There is still strife among you
You are of the flesh.
You are acting merely human.

So, whats the point? The point here is that this passage is not talking about believers vs non believers. This isn't about needing the Spirit to quicken them before they can understand the Gospel. No, it is saying that the messengers of God are men of the Spirit and they proclaim spiritual wisdom taught by the Spirit. They are not men seeking a following or their own glory. Yet, these Corinthians are infants in Christ (not non believers) who are unspiritual and worldly and therefore they have twisted the message to make it a reason for creating factions and fights (i.e. "I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow Cephas"). That is a worldly way of thinking and is not the mentality of these spiritual men who have proclaimed the Gospel.

As you can see, this passage has nothing to do with Total Depravity. It has to do with the messengers of the Gospel being very unlike the teachers of the ancient world who were carnal and only interested in debates and creating a bigger following than the other guy. Paul says, "NO! We are all servants of the Spirit and we are not preaching worldly wisdom that seeks our own following or glory! Yet because you are thinking carnally, you are missing the basics of the message we are sharing!"

I hope that clarifies things. Now, let me share a few passages (not an exhaustive list by any means) that I believe teaches that all people can see the light when it shines on them and are held accountable for rejecting what they knew to be good.















Anyway, that's just a few verses off the top of my head. Yet, beyond that, I think the overall context of Scripture assumes that people are responsible when they hear and reject the Gospel. I think the point of both the OT Law and the NT Gospel presupposes that they are good and holy...and God's wrath falls, not because people are incapable of understanding or accepting God's truth and holy standard, but because in their wickedness they reject it and desire to follow their own evil desires rather than what they know to be true. In fact Paul writes concerning the wicked...

“Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.” (Romans 1:32, ESV)

So the picture here is not one of human ignorance due to being dead in sin, but human obstinance...knowing God's decrees and what is good and bowing their backs against Him.

Justa quickly...you never spoke a word to verse 8. What is Paul talking about there? You say everyone faced with the gospel recognizes the truth. How does this verse fit within your theology?

Also I do not see any verse you presented stating that when faced with the gospel the unbeliever recognizes the truth therein. Do you have anything in plain language like I have presented in 1Cor 2:8?

 

[Wormwood]

Hey justaname, Thanks for responding.

Let me focus on those specific verses so you can see how I understand them...

But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, “What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him”— these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit.

Paul is saying that the Apostles/messengers of God impart a secret/hidden wisdom that worldly thinking doesn't grasp. In fact, this kind of carnal thinking led to the crucifixion of Christ. Yet, Paul says, God has now made known this secret wisdom that was previously beyond human, carnal comprehension. God has prepared something for human beings that they could never even begin to fathom or conceive...and this is what Paul and these messengers are revealing.

​So, the point here is not that carnal people are completely incapable of recognizing the Gospel. Rather, the point is that God is now revealing to the world something that was so hidden/secret and wonderful....something altogether foreign to carnal ways of thought, that it has to be revealed through the Spirit. Carnal minds could never imagine such a beautiful thing God has done.

So, the point is, stop thinking carnally! That kind of thinking is what led to the killing of Jesus. That kind of thinking never made sense of the things of God. Rather, now you need to think Spiritually and understand what has been revealed to us and what God is doing for us. If you keep thinking like worldly, carnal people, the beauty and wisdom of the Gospel will always be out of reach. Remember, the carnal people here are the Corinthians! This isn't comparing the believer..who knows the things of the Spirit vs. the unbeliever who cannot possibly know them. No, its comparing worldly wisdom (which is what caused the death of Jesus and is causing factions in Corinth) vs Spiritual wisdom, which is being proclaimed by these messengers (Paul, Cephas, Apollos, etc). Make sense?

As for your second point...

The verses I quoted shows that even carnal and sinful people can recognize what is good and are held accountable for their rejection of it. The wicked KNOW Gods righteous decree and understand what they are doing DESERVES death. Yet they persist. The wicked SUPRESS the truth in their wickedness. Its not that they don't know it, but they choose to suppress it. The Gentiles conscience bears witness to the truth, Paul says. The Law is written on their hearts. Paul says he "delighted" in the law of God, but simply was unable to follow it in his flesh. Jesus said those Pharisees would have been innocent had they not seen him. Yet because they saw him and his signs, and chose to hate him, they had become guilty.

So, the point I am trying to make is that these are not the images of people who are dead in sin and incapable of recognizing good when it smacks them in the face. No, these are descriptions of people who understand very well what is good. They saw the signs. They heard the message. They understood what was right and some even "delighted" in what was good. The problem is that they chose to do evil. They chose to suppress what they knew was right. They rejected the light when it appeared because they loved darkness...and not because they were blind to the light in the first place. No, they saw it and many turned their back to it...but not all. Some both recognized the light and chose to stay in it so that God could do a work in their lives that they could not do on their own.

So again, the point here is that humans are partially depraved. It is not that they are incapable of recognizing what is good. Even our own basic civil laws show we know truth is good and lying is evil. Kindness and love is good and murder and abuse are evil. We know these things. The problem is that our flesh is depraved and we don't DO them. So its clear that humans can recognize the what is right and good (including the truth of the Gospel) without some special divine interaction spiritually raises them from the dead in order to recognize it..and then mandates they accept it by virtue of them being spiritually raised. So let me conclude by a simple visual of the differences...

TOTAL DEPRAVITY TEACHES

-Man is incapable of recognizing what is good.
-Man is depraved and cannot keep the good law of God.

PARTIAL DEPRAVITY TEACHES

-Man is capable of recognizing what is good
-Man is depraved and cannot keep the good law of God

Both teach man is not good. I just believe that Scripture teaches that man can recognize what is good and can recognize their need for grace...because they are incapable of living righteously in the flesh. I think Paul clearly teaches this was the case with him. He knew he needed to be rescued from his body of death. And wicked people know the righteous decree and that they deserve death. Its not lack of knowing, its lack of doing that plagues us.

 

[justaname]

Wormwood,

Personally I have never argued men cannot recognize good, rather that they do not recognize the truth of the gospel message. Men are able to make moral choices as I know agnostics that are very moral people yet they do not recognize the truth of the gospel one bit. Some people even believe in God (Jews) yet have refused the gospel message. This is not a matter of choosing between good and bad rather it is a matter of believing the testimony of God concerning His Son. Perhaps this is the disconnect we are having in this conversation.

So then back to my 1 Corinthians passage. As I appreciate your interpretive approach of taking the body as a whole to understand the author's overall argument, it is also prudent to look at the author's individual supporting arguments and discern what is being conveyed. Such is the case in 1 Cor 2:8. Your blanket statement is everyone recognizes the truth of the gospel. Yet this verse does not fit your theology.

None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. - 1 Corinthians 2:8

Then what about:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Truly we know Paul is not set out to teach the particular doctrine of total depravity as most doctrine is dirived from inferring from the Scripture. Yet these two Scriptures use rather plain language directly against your statement.

(Added Edit). So then I did read what you posted yet I need you to explain a bit further. What I gather is you are arguing Paul is speaking to believers (where I agree), yet clearly Paul is describing the condition of the carnal minded (where I think we agree). Without question the rulers were not believers nor were they Corinthians. So then the rulers of the age did not understand God's testimony concerning His Son and carnal minded individuals do not understand. When do/did non-believers become spiritually minded so they understand? When did they receive the Spirit of God and dispel the spirit of the world? (2:12). Without question there is much more going on in this section than what you are conveying.

Let's then go to one more supporting context drawn from the OT.

2 And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land,
3 the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders.
4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear. - Deuteronomy 29:2-4

Now this OT section describes the need for the Lord to grant understanding of this miraculous dilevery out of Egypt that Israel experienced. These people were directed by the hand of God and they did not understand the gravity of this dileverance. Truly there is a correlation here dealing with man's ability to recognize spiritual truths!

To the second point. This is not a discussion of recognizing good, rather about recognizing the truth concerning God's only begotten Son.

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. - 2 Corinthians 4:3-4

 

[Wormwood]

justaname,

Thanks for responding. Im tired tonight so Ill try to make this brief and hopefully coherent.

Well, as I understand it, Total Depravity goes beyond just recognizing the Gospel or not. I believe it has to do wether or not there is any shred of goodness in man such that they can even recognize it when they see it...and obviously the Gospel is good....it is Good News! We may need to explore this more, but I don think the traditional view of TD is limited to recognizing the Gospel. I may be wrong.

Such is the case in 1 Cor 2:8. Your blanket statement is everyone recognizes the truth of the gospel. Yet this verse does not fit your theology.
None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. - 1 Corinthians 2:8

Im a bit confused here...may be because Im sleepy. But how can this verse be referring to not recognizing the Gospel when the Gospel didn't even exist before Jesus was crucified? The crucifixion and resurrection are central to the Gospel. And again, Paul makes it pretty clear that the "carnal" folk who aren't getting it are the "babes in Christ" in Corinth. He's not referring to unbelievers here as the carnal ones, but the Corinthian church!

Then what about:
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. - 1 Corinthians 2:14

Again, I think the point here is that these Corinthians are acting like natural, carnal people. They are thinking and behaving like "mere men." Paul's point is that they are not understanding the Gospel properly because they see it as an occasion to argue and split up about which teacher they like best...Paul, Apollos, Cephas, etc. This context has nothing to do with divine quickening...if anything, its the opposite. These baby Christians aren't getting it...they are not discerning the things of the Spirit but are thinking like carnal men.

(Added Edit). So then I did read what you posted yet I need you to explain a bit further. What I gather is you are arguing Paul is speaking to believers (where I agree), yet clearly Paul is describing the condition of the carnal minded (where I think we agree). Without question the rulers were not believers nor were they Corinthians. So then the rulers of the age did not understand God's testimony concerning His Son and carnal minded individuals do not understand. When do/did non-believers become spiritually minded so they understand? When did they receive the Spirit of God and dispel the spirit of the world? (2:12). Without question there is much more going on in this section than what you are conveying.

This is precisely my point. Paul is not proclaiming a silver bullet here. He's not saying, "Yep, the Spirit quickens a person and then they understand all things spiritual." No, even saved people can think carnally. There is such a thing as "carnal Christians." A person does not become a Christian and suddenly discard the flesh and have only spiritual thoughts...right? I mean, that isn't your experience, is it? Paul's point is simply this... When we think like the world and follow the rudiments of this world, we act and behave like foolish, carnal people who ended up killing the Son of God. We are called to think spiritually and follow a wisdom that is not of this world. That is what Paul is calling these believers (and us) to. We will never live out the beauty of the Gospel and understand it in its fullness if we live and think as the world does. If we remain babes in Christ, barely choking down milk, we will never be able to handle the real meat of the things of the Spirit. That is what this ENTIRE letter is about. Christians who are sexually immoral rather than seeing t heir bodies as Temples of the Holy Spirit. Believers who use Spiritual gifts as a means of vain self glory rather than love, etc. People can have the Spirit and walk in the flesh....I refer you to Galatians 4-5 for even more detailed discussion on such possibilities. This is one of the things I so dislike about TD and the Calvinistic theological framework. It pictures salvation as this silver bullet where God chooses you and suddenly you are saved and the sinful man is gone and now you are all Spirit (if you are "truly" saved, that is....they say). Thats not how I see the Bible referring to process of either justification or sanctification.

We recognize the Gospel (with the assistance of the Spirit...which is not forced), we accept the Gospel, God justifies us and frees us from the penalty of our sin, God begins a work of sanctification in our life through the indwelling Spirit...who is empowered by our faith (or quenched by the lack thereof). Our salvation is fully relalized when we finish the race, it is not a one and done thing. There is the possibility of falling away.

Ok, way too much writing..Im losing even myself now...haha .sorry. Gotta get to bed.

 

[justaname]

Wormwood,

This is why I find it productive to discuss these issues. I think continually at times Christians talk past each other through terms. Allow me to affirm once again. I am not a Calvinist. I may not hold to a traditional view of Total Depravity. In fact I cannot positively affirm I completely understand the doctrine as I have never been officially taught it, though I believe I have a working view of it.

1. I agree Christians can think carnally.
2. The rulers that crucified Christ had the testimony He had given concerning Himself coupled with the work of the Spirit (signs and miracles). We agree the crucifixion and resurrection are crucial to the gospel message this side of the cross, but the rulers were doubly guilty because they should have recognized the time of His coming.
3. This then is the core of our discussion. Please describe to me how you view unbelievers. Are all unbelievers "natural men"? Are all unbelievers "in the flesh"? Are all unbelievers "carnal thinkers"? Are all unbelievers "blinded by the god of this world"?
4. Number 3 I believe will begin to bridge our communication, yet can you speak to the role of the Holy Spirit in regards to belief. Due to time I must be brief yet it is my contention that the Holy Spirit only works on the hearts of those He knows will accept the gospel. Why would God waste His time opening the hearts of those He knows will still refuse the gospel message?

 

[Wormwood]

justaname,

Yes, I agree these discussions are helpful and is hopefully also edifying for you as I know it is for me. I think Total Depravity as a foundational element of the Calvinistic system often gets lumped into Calvinism....although I know there are many shades of such a view. Here is one of my favorite theological works. The author gives a brief description of Total Depravity and its connection with Calvinism. Maybe we can use this as a baseline for our discussion on the topic.

According to Augustinians (including Calvinists), total depravity does not mean that a sinner is 100% corrupt, or as depraved as he can possibly be. Nor does it mean that every act of the sinner is both internally and externally evil. Even a totally depraved person can do things that are outwardly good.
What total depravity does mean is that the total person is corrupted by sin; every aspect of human nature is depraved, including the intellect and the will. Because the intellect has been corrupted, a sinner cannot truly under­stand the things of God, including the Bible. Because the will is sinful, a sinner cannot do anything that is inward­ly good and acceptable to God. The latter is the key element of total depravity. It is called the bondage of the will.
The most significant implication of this bondage is that sinners are totally unable to respond to the gospel and turn to God in faith and repentance. As Berkhof says, the sinner “cannot change his fundamental preference for sin and self to love for God, nor even make an approach to such a change” (247). This total inability is thus the heart of total depravity. Because the sinner is unable to believe the gospel by his own choice, regeneration must precede faith, with both regeneration and faith being the unilateral and unconditional gifts of God, and with God himself unconditionally choosing those to whom he will give them.
In other words, the doctrine of total depravity is the foundation for the “five points” of Calvinism, designated as TULIP. The T in TULIP is total depravity, with the entire human race being totally depraved as a result of Adam’s sin. This means that God must decide whom he will save, and he does this prior to the creation itself. This is the U in TULIP, unconditional election or unconditional predestination. Then, knowing the exact number of those who would be saved, God determined to limit the suffering of the Savior to the exact amount needed by the chosen ones. This is the L in TULIP, limited atonement. The I in TULIP is irresistible grace. It follows logically from the T and the U. If sinners are totally unable to believe on their own, then God must bestow the gift of faith upon those prechosen to receive it, in an act that cannot be resisted. The P in TULIP is perseverance (or preservation) of the saints, in which God guarantees that those who receive the gift of faith will never lose it. This “once saved, always saved” status is thus the final necessary result of total depravity.
It is obvious, then, that total depravity is a pivotal doctrine. If it is true, it necessitates the entire Calvinist system. If it is false, it negates the entire system. In my judgment it is false. The Bible does not teach that sinners are totally depraved, either at birth or by their own sin. In particular, it does not teach that a sinner is totally unable to believe the gospel and turn to God for salvation.

Jack Cottrell, The Faith Once for All: Bible Doctrine for Today (Joplin, MO: College Press Pub., 2002), 198.

 

[justaname]

Wormwood,

I appreciate the Cottrell excerpt. Where I disagree is where he describes a total inability to respond to the gospel and turn in faith to God. This is not to say Cottrell is wrong in his assessment of the doctrine, rather that I disagree with the statement. Wether or not he is correct in his assessment would take ample research on my behalf that I am not at liberty to pursue at this juncture.

My personal biblical assessment concerning the condition (not the doctrine) is men have the potential for belief but are devoid of the desire. Sin did not remove the intellect and/or will nor hinder it so that it does not function. Yet as I understand the will, men make decisions based upon their greatest desires. (Johanathon Edwards). Men in their depraived state are self-serving, in rebellion with and even hostile to God. Men are better described as being "totally" unwilling rather than being unable.

Then we have the issue of understanding. This is a completely different condition where Scripture shuts all people up in futility.

Please though if you could go back to my previous post and reflect on points 3 and 4 and kindly speak to those.

 

[Wormwood]

Hey justaname,

I would say Dr. Cottrell is correct in his assessment. I know he has read and written a great deal on the topic. So, I would say you would likely disagree with the traditional view of Total Depravity if you don't like the description of it. A great book to read in which Dr. Cottrell is a contributing author is...

Perspectives on Election

Id highly recommend to you this book, as it deals specifically with the concepts we are discussion. It will give you a better feel of the different views and how proponents of those views present and defend them.

Ok, so I'll try to address your comments...

3. This then is the core of our discussion. Please describe to me how you view unbelievers. Are all unbelievers "natural men"? Are all unbelievers "in the flesh"? Are all unbelievers "carnal thinkers"? Are all unbelievers "blinded by the god of this world"?

I would say all believers are sinful and corrupt in both body and mind. Sin has stained the human soul and has created in men a longing for what is perverse and wicked. Human beings have evil hearts. Jesus uses the analogy of a tree....a bad tree produces bad fruit. Human beings are corrupt in their hearts and minds which leads to the fruit of their lives being filled with greed, selfishness, envy, strife, etc. Yes, I would say humans are blinded both by their own sin AND by the god of this world. Moreover, our bodies are corrupted by sin which leads to all kinds of disease and death. Yes, all unbelievers are natural and "in the flesh" (although some believers are also walking in this way).

So when I say "partial depravity" it does not mean that humans aren't entirely sin-stained and wicked. No, they are completely guilty and wicked. They do not seek God and they produce only rotten fruit.

4. Number 3 I believe will begin to bridge our communication, yet can you speak to the role of the Holy Spirit in regards to belief. Due to time I must be brief yet it is my contention that the Holy Spirit only works on the hearts of those He knows will accept the gospel. Why would God waste His time opening the hearts of those He knows will still refuse the gospel message?

I believe the Holy Spirit does work on people's hearts. I think He especially works through prayer and the preaching and proclamation of the Gospel. The message of the Gospel is Spirit and life. The Spirit uses the power of the preached Word to bring conviction and a recognition of the truth. I think they Holy Spirit can also remind us of the truth and bring about circumstances in our lives that make us thirsty for truth and life. Maybe a good way to say it is the Holy Spirit, through his work on our hearts and our circumstances, is like salt on the popcorn that makes us thirsty for the life God longs to give us in Christ.

I do believe the Spirit works on the hearts of people who ultimately reject him. I mean, Jesus forgave those who were crucifying him...and certainly not all of them repented or put faith in him. Why would he forgive people who would never repent? I think that speaks to the amazing love of God. God still loves and pursues a people who, for the most part, only hate and despise Him in return. I think the OT is a running history of this. How many times did God send prophets to plead with the people to repent (even through he knew they would not)? He still loved and called out to them even though they were stiff-necked and obstinate. God's love is unconditional. It is not based on how we respond. Of course, if we do not respond, we will not be covered by the grace that only comes through faith. Yet that does not mean that God is not grieved for the lost or that Jesus didn't die for those who would never accept his sacrifice.

I think Hebrews 3-5 paints a perfect illustration of this. The author uses the Exodus as an example for Christians today. God freed all those Israelites from Egypt, yet almost all of them died in the desert. Why would God free people from slavery that he knew would rebel against Moses or create calves of gold and worship them? Because he loved them. And so it is with the world and with Christians. Jesus died for the whole world, but that does not mean all of the world will enter the promised land. I also believe that not all who put faith in Christ will end up in the promised land. Many shrink back and turn away from the faith, even though they had started a good race...they did not finish. That is the story of much of Israel and that should teach us today about the importance of walking faithfully through the desert of this life all the way to the end.

I hope I didn't ramble too much. Let me know if this does or does not clarify things regarding my position.

 

[justaname]

Wormwood,

In the above quote you say all "believers are sinful...", I assume a typo in this since my question was about unbelievers?

Where I am at an impass in understanding your argument is where I see explicit language in Scripture describing the total unwillingness of man to seek God coupled with the total darkening of the understanding and futility of the mind. How do individuals overcome this on their own? Please re

Then if it is the Holy Spirit helps some to overcome this condition by working on people's hearts are you stating God is unable or ineffective in the cases of those who remain in unbelief? Truly we know not all hear the message, is God desiring yet unable in these also? I wonder if you comprehend the god of free-will you are arguing for that is sovereign over and more powerful than the biblical God in your theology.

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. - 2 Corinthians 4:4

Your argument is God works on the heart of every unbeliever that hears the gospel so they recognize it as truth in turn placeing God at the heart of their desires, and God enlightens the mind so unbelievers are not blinded and fully understand the gospel including a future demise without Him contrasted to the greater reality of God's eternal love through faith. God gives man a clean state unhindered by sin from which to make a choice. But some reject this quickening and awakening thus overcoming God's work in their hearts and minds. Here God wants all to come to Him but in the case of most He is doing everything He can but He is unable to overcome the sinful desire of man's heart. This is irrational and unbelievable and describes a weak god.

Here we must concede man views the treasure of God he receives through faith and understands the foulness of sin and then chooses dung over treasure. Man understands the eternal torment awaiting him and weighs that more valuable than the eternal love God has in store. What enlightened man would choose such an outcome? What man that has his heart set on God would seek to desire something else? No it must be conceded that God was unsuccessful in bringing this type of man to rationality because no rational man would decide in such a way. This type of man is still irrational and futile in their thinking. God must have been unsuccessful in clearing this man's heart of sin and instilling the fear of Him in it not able to fulfill the promise given through His prophet Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 32:40) This type of man never was fully clear from the veil Satan has over their eyes and God is unable to bring true clarity. Here God has failed in fulfilling His desire and purpose, His word has gone out in vain, and Satan is the victor.

Then I do not see how Jesus' forgiveness of others applies to total depravity. By forgiving others we release ourselves from the spiritual bondage of unforgiveness and pride. Certainly this is true in the case of Jesus also.

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood,

In the above quote you say all "believers are sinful...", I assume a typo in this since my question was about unbelievers?

Where I am at an impass in understanding your argument is where I see explicit language in Scripture describing the total unwillingness of man to seek God coupled with the total darkening of the understanding and futility of the mind. How do individuals overcome this on their own? Please re

Then if it is the Holy Spirit helps some to overcome this condition by working on people's hearts are you stating God is unable or ineffective in the cases of those who remain in unbelief? Truly we know not all hear the message, is God desiring yet unable in these also? I wonder if you comprehend the god of free-will you are arguing for that is sovereign over and more powerful than the biblical God in your theology.

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. - 2 Corinthians 4:4

Your argument is God works on the heart of every unbeliever that hears the gospel so they accept it as truth and place God at the heart of their desires, and enlightens the mind so they are not blinded and so they fully understand the gospel with their future demise without Him and the greater reality of God's eternal love through faith. But some reject this quickening and awakening thus overcoming God's work in their hearts and minds. Here God wants all to come to Him but in the case of most He is doing everything He can but He is unable to overcome the sinful desire of man's heart. This is irrational and unbelievable and describes a weak god.

Here we must concede man views the treasure of God he receives through faith and understands the foulness of sin and then chooses dung over treasure. Man understands the eternal torment awaiting him and weighs that more valuable than the eternal love God has in store. What enlightened man would choose such an outcome? What man that has his heart set on God would seek to desire something else? No it must be conceded that God was unsuccessful in bringing this type of man to rationality because no rational man would decide in such a way. This type of man is still irrational and futile in their thinking. God must have been unsuccessful in clearing this man's heart of sin and instilling the fear of Him in it not able to fulfill the promise given through His prophet Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 32:40) This type of man never was fully clear from the veil Satan has over their eyes and God is unable to bring true clarity. Here God has failed in fulfilling His desire and purpose, His word has gone out in vain, and Satan is the victor.

Then I do not see how Jesus' forgiveness of others applies to total depravity. By forgiving others we release ourselves from the spiritual bondage of unforgiveness and pride. Certainly this is true in the case of Jesus also.

Hey Justaname,

Thanks for responding. I appreciate the discussion and the effort on your part to understand better my position prior to sharing the ways in which you disagree. I think sometimes people disagree without really taking the time to really understand the other person's views. So, I know my comments may not change your mind, but I thank you for trying to understand my position a little better.

1. Yes, I apologize. That was a typo.

2. Yes, man is totally unwilling to seek God on their own. I agree with you here. I think Paul makes this point very clear as well in the book of Romans. The difference is, I believe, that in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, God is seeking man. Jesus came to "seek and save." The "Good News" of the Gospel is that God came for us and that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. So, I dont think responding to the Gospel can be compared to man's pursuit of God. I believe the preaching of the Gospel is God's pursuit of man and our response to the Gospel is simply that....a response. When we believe the Gospel, we are simply reacting to the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf. The initiative is all God's in the incarnation, revelation, death & resurrection, and the Spirit-inspired message that brings conviction and a knowledge of the truth.

Just to clarify the point even more (because I believe it is a significant one), allow me to use an illustration. A boy gets lost in a shopping mall. The parents are frantic and are crying out in the mall, searching store to store, but cannot find the boy. The boy, on the other hand, is happily sitting in a toy store, playing with toys for hours. He is completely oblivious to his parents search and he is in no way seeking his parents. The parents, in their search, call security and give out pictures of the boy. The mall security officers split up with pictures and call on the intercoms for the boy. Finally, one of the officers walks into the toy store and finds the boy happily playing with a toy in the back of the store. He calls to the boy an tells the boy to follow him because his parents are worried to death and have been looking for him for hours. The boy believes the officer and follows him to be reunited with the parents.

Now, dont take this illustration to say anything about Total Depravity...it is just to make a point about how I understand the concept of initiative in God's search for man. No one would say the boy initiated the search. The boy, in no way, was looking for the parents or even aware that he was lost. However, when he was confronted with the news about his parents and their concern, the boy was made aware of the situation and was able to respond. I hope that helps.

3. I dont want to make this too long. I will comment on 2 Cor. 4:4 a little later in a different post.

4. I also want to spend a little time on the idea of thwarting God's desires by rejecting a message that God wants them to accept. Does such an idea suggest that man is sovereign over God? Absolutely not. You see, I agree that God is completely sovereign. However, God, in his sovereignty, has chosen to make free will creatures. God desires and has determined to make creatures with the capacity to choose. Thus, while God may desire people to accept the Gospel, he also desires people to make their own choices by virtue of his sovereign choice to make free-will beings. So, if God supersedes our free will to cause us to accept the Gospel (which he desires) he is also negating his sovereign decision (and desire) to make human beings free-will creatures who can choose love him and live by faith.

Perhaps another crude example would be training a dog to sit. Now, you are the dog's master. You want the dog to sit, so you give the dog treats and try to train the dog to sit when you ask. You could, if you wanted, jam the dog's hind-end to the ground with your hand and make the dog sit. This would fulfill your will to make the dog sit in that moment, but would not accomplish your overarching desire for the dog to trust you and happily obey you. The joy of having a good dog is that they happily respond to your commands without having to force them to do what you want...even though you could. In the same way, God desires his people to accept the Gospel, but he also desires for them to make their own choices. Thus, our freedom is a sovereign act of God and does not undermine his sovereignty...but fulfills it. Consider the following verses from Isaiah 5:

“What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad? Now I will tell you what I am going to do to my vineyard: I will take away its hedge, and it will be destroyed; I will break down its wall, and it will be trampled. I will make it a wasteland, neither pruned nor cultivated, and briers and thorns will grow there. I will command the clouds not to rain on it.” The vineyard of the Lord Almighty is the nation of Israel, and the people of Judah are the vines he delighted in. And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed; for righteousness, but heard cries of distress.” (Isaiah 5:4–7, NIV)

To me, these verses (and read all of chap 5 if you like for the fuller context) clearly show that God truly desired Israel to do what was right. He wanted them to live righteously. He wanted them to be just in their dealings with one another. In fact, the passage suggests that God had done everything to set the stage for them to do the right thing and produce good fruit. However, in spite of all God's desires and efforts, the people were stubborn and wicked and filled the land with blood and distress. God permitted his people to express their free will even though he desired, and set the stage for them to behave differently than they did. In the same way, we see a number of texts in the NT where people resist the Holy Spirit and spurn the Spirit of grace (cf. Acts 5:3; 7:51; Eph. 4:30; Heb. 10:29)

In sum, I dont think it suggests that God is weak. I think it shows that God is sovereign and he has made a sovereign choice to make human beings free-will creatures and honors that choice he made, even when human beings do the things which grieve him and are opposed to his desires and nature. Of course, mankind's rebellion is only temporary and God will extinguish all wickedness and endures it for our sake so that we have time to repent and escape the judgment to come.

5. "Then I do not see how Jesus' forgiveness of others applies to total depravity. By forgiving others we release ourselves from the spiritual bondage of unforgiveness and pride. Certainly this is true in the case of Jesus also."

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. Can you clarify this comment for me?

Have a blessed evening, brother.

 

[justaname]

Wormwood,

Here I see a great discussion being had amongst brothers attempting to discern a great mystery of God held within the Church for quite some time. This is not a contest to change minds, rather a sharing of personal understandings and convictions. If at times my words seem harsh, please excuse my lack of eleqonce because I mean no disrespect. Truly I am seeking your understanding of the Scripture as I disclose my critique, not in spite of but because of a desire to sharpen each other. If I misrepresent your position it is only out of my error and ignorance so please correct me.

1. Do men on their own understand the gospel or does God give them understanding? Do men break their rebellion and hatred for God on their own or through God's softening of their hearts? Are these acts synergistic?

2. Once man does recognize the truth of the gospel do you see it is irrational for a man to reject the gospel he recognizes as truth? Why would a man choose anything irrational or against the truth knowing it ends in his own demise from his own free-will? The answer must include sin, thereby the will is truly still in bondage to sin and is not free by any means.

3. I understand God's dilemma with Israel and His continual calling out to them. My argument concerning the weakening of the view of God rests more in His action concerning the hearts and minds of men and His inability to give them a true free-will choice with your view. Who can freely choose anything when their minds and hearts are darkened with sin? Yet if it is somehow a "clean slate" so to speak from which the choice is made, you have the problem of irrationality in rejection.

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood,

Here I see a great discussion being had amongst brothers attempting to discern a great mystery of God held within the Church for quite some time. This is not a contest to change minds, rather a sharing of personal understandings and convictions. If at times my words seem harsh, please excuse my lack of eleqonce because I mean no disrespect. Truly I am seeking your understanding of the Scripture as I disclose my critique, not in spite of but because of a desire to sharpen each other. If I misrepresent your position it is only out of my error and ignorance so please correct me.

1. Do men on their own understand the gospel or does God give them understanding? Do men break their rebellion and hatred for God on their own or through God's softening of their hearts? Are these acts synergistic?

2. Once man does recognize the truth of the gospel do you see it is irrational for a man to reject the gospel he recognizes as truth? Why would a man choose anything irrational or against the truth knowing it ends in his own demise from his own free-will? The answer must include sin, thereby the will is truly still in bondage to sin and is not free by any means.

3. I understand God's dilemma with Israel and His continual calling out to them. My argument concerning the weakening of the view of God rests more in His action concerning the hearts and minds of men and His inability to give them a true free-will choice with your view. Who can freely choose anything when their minds and hearts are darkened with sin? Yet if it is somehow a "clean slate" so to speak from which the choice is made, you have the problem of irrationality in rejection.

Thanks brother. I have not been offended at all. I would offer the same disclosure to you that my critiques of Calvinism may not always line up with your exact views, so I apologize if any of my critiques do not fit your personal views.

1. I think this is a key point that I want to take a second to flush out. First, I think it is important to emphasize that the Gospel is the inspired, Spirit-empowered Word of God. As Paul says in Romans 1 that the Gospel is "the power of God for the salvation of all who believe..." So, in my mind, it makes no sense for the Spirit to have to empower us to understand the powerful saving message of the Gospel. I believe that if the Gospel is the truth of God given by the Spirit, then the words themselves contain the power to bring about an understanding of the truth. If this is not the case, inspiration is meaningless. Why would the Spirit inspire a text if the message was still rendered meaningless and incomprehensible to its audience apart from a secondary work of illumination? Therefore, I believe that we see in Scripture that Paul teaches that the power of his ministry came from the message of the cross. It didn't come from some preceding Spiritual illumination that was needed to decode his message. Rather, the message itself was the "wisdom of God and the power of God." That is why it is important that we proclaim the message of Christ because that message is powerful. Jesus said that his words were "spirit and life." God's power and salvation is not strained out from the Gospel. Rather, the word of Christ IS the seed that is planted in people which then has the potential to spout and turn into a great yield. God's command, "Let there be light" WAS the power to create light from darkness. The power to create and the Word are not separate entities.

Second, I would say that there certainly is synergism involved in accepting the Gospel message. I like a term the John Wesley used: Responsible Grace. God's grace is free and is a gift to us, yet we have a responsibility to respond to it. The more we respond to grace, the more grace we receive. The more we reject grace the more calloused and hardened we become...until at some point we become completely blind and deaf to the truth (as we see happening throughout the OT as well as in the NT amongst some of the Pharisees.. In fact, I think that is why Jesus spoke in parables because God no longer would allow them to see or hear because they has rejected the grace God had already given them. Therefore, God blinded their eyes and closed their ears. In my mind, hearing the Gospel is a great responsibility. A person either draws closer to God or is pushed farther away. There is no such thing as being unaffected by the message of Christ or the grace of God. As Paul put it, it is either the aroma of life or the smell of death to those who hear (of course the difference is in what we do with it).

Third, no, men do not break out of rebellion on their own. In my mind, accepting the Gospel is merely an acceptance of truth and a cry to God for grace. Our response to the message of Jesus does not constitute our own breaking out of anything. That's like saying that someone bursts into a prison, knocks out all the guards and hands you a key...Who would dare suggest that your decision to use to key to unlock your cell constitutes you breaking out of jail "on your own?" No, God is the one who provided the means (the blood of Jesus), the call (the messenger and message), and the power (the resurrection and the indwelling Spirit) that brings about the redemption and subsequent sanctification process. I dont believe that being a disciple is simply a momentary decision that is either something God does or something we do. I believe discipleship begins and continues as an act of trust in God. Becoming a Christian is a significant event, dont get me wrong, but its just the first step in the race. I think the American church has become infatuated with a microwave-style form of Christianity that focuses on momentary decisions that bring about once-saved-always-saved results. Our response to God's love and grace and willingness to cleanse us and give us new lives empower by the Spirit isn't us doing anything on our own. If a person sitting in their own filth is given the aroma of soap and is told they can be washed clean....if they say, "Yes, I want to be washed" which results in their being hosed and soaped down and given a haircut and fine clothes to wear...did they cleanse themselves on their own by virtue of their cooperating and saying, "Yes, I want to be washed?" Responding is merely responding. God makes all the provision, provides the power and transforms the life. Our job is simply to be clay that is responsive and workable in the potter's hand.

2. Well, yes I see it as irrational. But since when is humanity rational? I mean, even in my own life, I do things all the time I know I shouldn't do. I should spend hours in prayer every day, but rarely do I commit this kind of time to something so important. I know I shouldn't eat donuts and should eat a salad instead. Can I get an "Amen?" Lol. I think Romans 7-8 is very instructive in this regard. Sometimes we know what the right thing to do is, but we are slaves to our fleshly desires. Some people ultimately decide that they do not want to be set free from their fleshly desires, even though they know their behaviors are wrong. As a result, they "suppress" the truth and they surround themselves with others who make them feel better about doing things they know they ought not do. Haven't you ever been to a party with friends in your younger years and underage kids are getting drunk and having premarital sex and so on and so forth? If you were to have a "rational" discussion with them and say, "You know underage drinking is wrong....correct?" "Yes." "You know its dangerous to drink so much alcohol you black out, correct?" "Yes." "You know its dangerous to have unprotected sex with people you hardly know, correct?" "Yes." "So why did you go to the party." "Um, because its fun." I believe the power of the Christian life is not simply to be saved from the consequences of our sin by accepting the Gospel, but to have the power of the Spirit unleashed in our lives...who, through faith, can begin to empower us to overcome the misdeeds of the flesh. As Christians, we have the power to put our fleshly desires in check, but many Christians still live carnally and in sin. Why? Because they do not empower the Spirit of God in their lives by walking in and growing in faith. The same power that brought Jesus out of the tomb lives in Christians so they can live new, resurrected lives. But the problem is not our rationality...its our faith and hunger and thirst for righteousness above our hunger and thirst to feed the misdeeds of the flesh. At least that is how I see it.

3. Well, I agree that none of us have a "clean slate." I am not a Pelagian. I believe we are partially depraved so certainly there is no tabula rasa. Yet one does not have to have a completely unbiased and all encompassing perspective on things to make a valid choice. As I said, I think the Spirit-inspired Gospel is powerful enough to shine the light such that a person can recognize it for what it is. No doubt their decision making may be hampered by sin, but then again, that sin was their choice as well. Again, I dont want to make this too long, but I think this goes back tot he 2 Cor. 4 text that shows that the god of this age blinds the minds of unbelievers. The evil one is at work too and he is trying to create a culture and world that thrives off of the lusts of the flesh and spurns and is ignorant of the things of God. He wants to squelch the spread of the Gospel and he wants to conditions cultures (via false religions and cultural biases) to despise or misunderstand the truth...and certainly human beings cooperate in this deception through their own suppression of the truth. I think this is why Paul refers to this as a battle that requires armor and the sword of the Spirit....and prayers. I believe this is why it is so important that Christians pray, pray, pray and pray...and boldly share the message of Christ which is the power of God to save sinners. Greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world. Thus, the reason many are deceived and live in darkness...and perhaps never hear the truth of Jesus....is not because God is unwilling to shine a light on them, but because we are not praying for more workers in the harvest fields or seeking the power, wisdom, conviction and opportunities provided by the Holy Spirit to make disciples through the preaching of the Gospel. The Spirit is willing...but our faith is often lacking. As EM Bounds put it, "Men are looking for better machinery. God is looking for better men. Men of prayer."

The exciting and alarming truth, from my perspective on "responsible grace" is that God has given us an incredible role and responsibility in the redemption of human beings around us. God desires his kingdom to come and his will to be done, but do we? Our faith...our prayers...our choices make a real difference. So we have to decide to live by faith and grow in the grace and knowledge of God so we can impact others, or not. God has made his will known, it is for us to respond to it and walk in it.