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Featured Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by atpollard, Sep 1, 2019.

  1. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    Earburer wrote:
    Every man is called unto the Gift of the Lord's salvation. It is evident that Judas did not "open the door". Rev. 3:20.

    Atpollard replied:
    1. Revelation 3 is written to the churches. If Judas was not called to salvation then he was never part of the church and Rev 3 applies to him no more than the promise in John 10:28.

    2. Judas was the “son of damnation”, does this sound like the Apostles chose to accept God or like God chose to claim the Apostles:

    3. [John 17:6-12 NASB] 6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

    Earburner's reply:
    1. Judas was most certainly "callled"!!!
    He just did not HEAR His voice, and therefore never " opened the door", that he should be "chosen".
    Only until one receives the Holy Spirit, is anyone confirmed of being "chosen".

    The Holy Spirit was not yet Given until the Day of Pentecost. Unfortunately for Judas, due to his early death in unbelief, he was not there on that Day, therefore he never received the Gift of the Holy Spirit. As a result, he never became one of his, and thus REMAINED to be "none of His" Romans 8:9.
    All of such are "the son of perdition (destruction)".

    2. Judas REMAINED to be the "son of perdition" (condemned already), because he did not "hear God's voice and open the door". John 3:18; Rev. 3:20.

    3. "and they have kept Your word."
    For anyone to KEEP God's word, means that they HEARD His Voice!!
     
  2. GISMYS_7

    GISMYS_7 Well-Known Member

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    Adam and Eve could have chosen to obey God they were not forced to choose sin!!
     
  3. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

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    I thought your post interesting although I can not agree with the above statement. I believe those who have embraced Jesus and his forgiveness do so on a daily basis. We choose to whom we will pay allegiance. Our free will for this has not been removed.

    Judas is a case in point. At an earlier stage he choose to throw his lot in with Jesus. He was even given the gift of healing and preaching when Jesus sent out the twelve yet at some stage his allegiance shifted to the point of betrayal.

    We are instructed not to be deceived; not to think and act as if there is impunity; to stay on the narrow path; to fight the good fight; to choose kindness and patience and forgiveness and long-suffering etc etc. In all these things our free will is alive and active.
     
  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    In fact they had ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to disobey God. They had everything perfect in Eden. And then they messed it up. No one compelled them to disobey God. That was their choice.
     
  5. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  6. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Amazing job of ignoring the context to misapply verses.
    I have nothing to say that you will hear, so enjoy your scriptural fantasy.
     
  7. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    I thought the serpent compelled Eve
     
  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    There's a huge difference between deceived and compelled.
     
  9. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Of course all of the above is true.
    This is the problem as I see it.
    To arrive at your belief system, one has to take scripture and change it to mean things it is not even speaking to.
    There are many verses that explain HOW one comes to be a sheep,,,,and very palinly.

    There is NO VERSE that says that Jesus died for only a select few,,,but that He died for anyone who wishes to BELIEVE IN HIM.

    So HOW does one get to be a sheep? Where in the bible does it state that GOD ONLY chooses who will become saved? No where.

    THIS is HOW one becomes a sheep of Jesus and His death was to forgive their sins...

    1. REPENT

    Luke 13:3 Jesus said:
    3“I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."


    Matthew 4:17 Jesus said:
    17From that time Jesus began to preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

    Mark 1:15 Jesus said.
    15and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”

    Mark 6:12
    12They went out and preached that men should repent.


    Acts 2:38
    38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    As you can see, we are exhorted to REPENT.
    We are not told to wait around and wait till GOD MAKES US REPENT.
    It is an ACTION WE TAKE.
    No where in scripture does it state that GOD CAUSES this repentance except in the sense that it is the Holy Spirit that convicts the world...
    But is the whole world saved? No. Because the Holy Spirit can SHOW MAN HIS SIN...but He will NOT force upon any man to accept God.
    We choose to accept or reject God.
    Hebrews 11:25 We CHOOSE to serve God.


    2. RECEIVE GOD

    Mark 4:20 Jesus said:
    20“And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”

    James 1:21
    21Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.

    1 John 2:14
    14I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one.


    Again, the above state that WE HEAR THE WORD AND ACCEPT IT.
    WE put aside wickedness and RECEIVE THE WORD.
    The word abides and WE HAVE OVERCOME the evil one.


    3. REGENERATION

    John 1:12-13
    12But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

    Titus 3:5
    5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit

    John 3:5 Jesus said:
    5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


    14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,
    • Jesus repeats that he is the shepherd.
    • Jesus repeats that he knows his sheep (God’s Chosen).
    • Jesus repeats that God’s Chosen know Him.
    15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
    • The relationship between God the Father and God the Son is the same as the relationship between Jesus and His sheep (God’s Chosen).
    16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock [with] one shepherd. ...
    • Jesus speaks of bringing the Gentiles into the Jewish Christian fold of God’s Chosen.
    • Jesus must BRING THEM (not their free will decision to come).
    • These sheep (God’s Chosen) WILL hear (no maybe).
    • These sheep (God’s Chosen) WILL become one flock (no maybe).
    26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
    • THE PEOPLE THAT JESUS WAS SPEAKING TO, THAT HEARD HIS WORDS, WERE NOT HIS SHEEP ( God’s Chosen).
    • So not everyone is one of Jesus’ sheep.
    27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    • The characteristics if Jesus’ sheep (God’s Chosen) are
      • They hear Jesus
      • Jesus knows them
      • They follow Jesus
    28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
    • The promises for Jesus’ sheep (God’s Chosen):
      • Eternal life
      • Never perish
      • Security in Jesus’ hand
    29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand.
    • God’s Chosen: Jesus’ sheep belong to Jesus because God the Father GAVE those particular sheep to Jesus. Those that are not Jesus’ sheep must not have been given to Jesus by the Father or else they would be Jesus’ sheep.
    • Jesus sheep are all God’s Chosen and God’s Chosen are
    30 "I and the Father are one."
    • Complete unity with this plan.

    To recap:
    God gave some sheep (people), but not all, to Jesus. Jesus is the Good Shepherd that died for His sheep (people) and gives eternal life to His sheep (people) and protects His sheep (people). Those people that are not His sheep (people) do not believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep.[/QUOTE]

    No disagreement on the above.

    To recap:

    HOW does one BECOME a sheep of Jesus?
    Here is where we disagree.

    The jailer in Acts was told:
    BELIEVE and you will be saved.

    NOT...
    Be saved and you will believe.

    You have it backwards....
     
  10. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    How could the serpent compel Eve?
    She had free will to make a moral choice.
    God gave them a choice...
    choice requires free will.
     
  11. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    What does this have to do with anything?
    Some people WANT to set themselves on fire
    and HAVE set themselves on fire.

    What you're saying is that we are NOT ABLE to make a FREE WILL DECISION.
    You have NOT shown me where, when or how free will was taken away from us.

    God gave us free will in the Garden.
    He gave Adam a choice.
    A choice requires free will.
    When, where, or how was this free will taken away?
     
  12. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    This is what you're replying to above:
    I said:
    And IF IT IS GOD who determines if I am to do GOOD OR EVIL....

    vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

    Word games A.
    YOU believe in compatible free will.
    That means that God makes you desire what HE desires...
    He cahnges YOUR will to be in compliance with HIS WILL.
    Of course, this is not free will and it's even insulting to God to say that it is.

    YOU believe God predestinates, predetermines, everything.
    YOU believe in determinism.

    So,,,
    Since you believe in predestination of everything that happens and you believe in determinism,,,you must accept the fact that you believe that GOD MAKES US SIN because He has predestined this sinning. Including rape, murder, the whole list.
    Charles Manson was only doing what God predestined him to do.
    Great thinking of Calvin's part. (and Luther and all the rest).

    As you've stated in Romans 1:28
    THEY DID NOT SEE FIT TO ACKNOWLEDGE GO ANY LONGER...

    Once again we have libertarian free will at work.
    THEY did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer...
    SO
    God gave them over to their lusts.

    IOW,,,this is how you want it...go!

    So easy to understand under my faith system.
    It requires twisting of scripture for yours,,,
    as usual.
     
  13. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    BTW, Calvinism gives NO GLORY TO GOD.
    Since it is God who is made responsible for all sin in the world since it is God that predestinated everything...including sin.

    WE are not responsible for sin under your theology...
    GOD IS.
     
  14. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    How was Paul drawn to Christ? Acts 9:1-9
    And lets talk about who it was that spoke to Ananias about Paul. Acts 9:10-19.
    Are you saying that the Holy Spirit of God, through Christ, does not now approach every man since Pentecost?
     
  15. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Wow, you are quite an expert on MY beliefs.
    Why do you bother asking me anything if you ignore what I say and then refute it by telling me what I believe.
    I don't think that I need to be here for this discussion except to give you someone to berate.
    Why don't you just go ahead and post your questions AND my answers ... it will be more efficient.
     
  16. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    Like Ananias and Paul?
    No, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ do not approach every person without exception like they did Ananias and Paul.

    (If they did, there would be no need for Missionaries ... everyone would have already heard.)
     
  17. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Excuse me ,,,, but YOU are che one who explained free will as compatibile free will.

    Please see your post no. 178 where you state that libertarian free will NEVER existed.

    I respond to what you post...
    I don t know whats in your mind.

    Can't reply to my post to you about Jesus dying for His sheep?
    Jesus dies for His sheep.
    IF we become His sheep is a decision we make freely, of our own free will.
    Real free will NOT compatible free will which is no free will at all.
    HOW we become His sheep is in debate here and I showed you many verses that teach us HOW to be saved.

    Can you show me one which says that GOD saves Us as a personal action, not of our choice? We must choose to be saved....
    We BELIEVE
    then
    We are saved.

    Jesus' death was SUFFICIENT for everyone...
    He died for All sins EVER committed..
    But the sacrifice is only efficacious for believers.

    I've told you that, in a sense, i can understand limited atonement.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  18. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    No! You are forgetting that we are talking about the UNsaved and not the saved!
    The unsaved are those who reject or neglect to have faith in Jesus for the free Gift of eternal life. They choose to not relinquish their self will for His.
    "They are gods" unto themselves, sitting in the temple of God.
     
  19. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    The Lord of the harvest is not at work in the fields? God is not hard at work at his own promise?
    Are you saying that after Pentecost, Paul and Ananias, He has been fast asleep under some shade tree? Not so!
    Acts 2[14] But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
    [15] For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
    [16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
    [17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
    [18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
    [38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    [39] For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
     
    GodsGrace likes this.
  20. atpollard

    atpollard Active Member

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    In the parable, he wasn't. We were told to ask Him to send more workers. However, I never said anything one way or another about this so it is a non-sequitur.

    I never made such a claim ... another non-sequitur.

    No.

    My turn to ask a question of YOU:
    What does this verse mean?

    How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" [Romans 10:14-15]
     
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