Total Inability: Genesis 1-4

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GodsGrace

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It did not come as a surprise to God ...

[Mat 2:13-18 NIV] 13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." 14 So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15 where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son." 16 When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi. 17 Then what was said through the prophet Jeremiah was fulfilled: 18 "A voice is heard in Ramah, weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because they are no more."

God prophesied about it long before it happened and God warned Joseph just before it happened, so God knew it was going to happen.

Scripture also says that "God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose" [Romans 8:28], so do you believe that "all things" really means "ALL things"?
Did I say God didn't know?

Does God KNOWING SOMETHING
mean that HE CAUSED it to happen?

Romans 8:28
Whatever happens to us,,, even bad things,,, God can use for our benefit.

This does not mean that God caused the bad thing to happen.
GOD DOES NOT CAUSE EVIL....

If He did, He couldn't be all-good. All love.

You seem to do what you tell me I do.
Projection.
 

GodsGrace

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Explain the difference and use your post below as an example so I can understand how YOU have "answered to scripture" and not "made comments about it" ...
I explained my understanding of Romans 1:19-20
 

atpollard

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I explained my understanding of Romans 1:19-20
What about THIS:
GENESIS 3:


[Genesis 3:1 NASB] 1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Indeed, has God said, 'You shall not eat from any tree of the garden'?"


Observation: Wherever you go, temptation will find you … even in paradise.

Speculation: Since temptation is unavoidable, the key must be how we deal with it.


[Genesis 3:2-3 NASB] 2 The woman said to the serpent, "From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'"


Observation: “or touch it” … Even people that were created “very good” and “blessed” and had never ‘sinned’ still felt it worthwhile to add to the word of God with a “thou shall not” that God did not say.

Speculation: It is innate in all people to “miss the mark” when it comes to understanding the commands of God and we all want to add what makes sense to what scripture actually says. Thus the benefit of an honest challenge to our assumptions and a hard “second” look at scripture.


[Genesis 3:4-5 NASB] 4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."


Observation: Temptation calls into question the truthfulness of what God said and promises people what they most desire … to be like God.

Speculation: All men want what the serpent tempted Eve with. We all question the truth of the word of God and we all want to be god of our own lives (or to choose a god of our liking). That is what pre-fall Eve wanted and that is what all post-fall mankind wants in its natural (pre-salvation) state.


[Genesis 3:6 NASB] 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make [one] wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.


Observation: Here we have the very first recorded exercise of moral free will. Eve knows what God wants, so her conscience is intact, and she is able to reason. Using her 100% untainted free will, Eve chooses to believe God lied to her, directly disobey the command of God, and to rebel against the authority of God by trying to become like God. Adam, who is just as much morally untainted, uses his 100% untainted free will to believe that God personally lied to him (face to face), to disobey the command that God gave him personally, and to join in the rebellion to become gods. We have a 100% record of free will, unfallen human beings choosing to embrace rebellion and reject God.

Speculation: “The apple doesn’t fall far from the tree”. What Adam and Eve were, we are (only more so). It is innate in human nature to want to be a god and to reject the authority of God Almighty.


[Genesis 3:7 NASB] 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.


Observation: Adam and Eve gained experiential knowledge of sin … they knew what it was to be in rebellion against God. As a result, they lost the freedom to be naked and unashamed (Gen 2:25) and felt the shame that they wanted to hide. They made covering of leaves to attempt to hide their nakedness (guilt and sin), but their covering was inadequate.

Speculation: We are born with an innate urge to sin (to be a god and rebel against God), but something still changes when we sin for ourselves. We are “spiritually dead” in our sins and we have lost that original communion and communication with God that Adam and Eve were born with and is our forfeited birthright as beings created in the image of God. Even in our ignorance, we instinctively attempt to clothe our spiritual nakedness in some sort of man made “religion” that is inadequate to the task. This is part of our natural spiritual “Total Inability”.


[Genesis 3:8 NASB] 8 They heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.


Observation: The often repeated “free will” mantra is that people choose to come to God for forgiveness. Here are two people that have no experiential reason to fear God (God has never harmed them) and the very first opportunity they have to exercise their free will and run to God, they exercise their free will and run and hide instead.

Speculation: How much more reason do we, living today, have to run and hide from the presence of God to hide our far greater sins? This is “Total Inability” of people to choose to come to God for forgiveness because of our human nature.


[Genesis 3:9 NASB] 9 Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"


Observation: God initiated contact with the people that were trying to hide from Him. God called to a specific person, not a general call to whomever might be listening.

Speculation: God always initiates contact because God must initiate contact; fallen people only want to hide from God. God always calls specific individuals because nobody would respond if they had a choice in the matter.


[Genesis 3:10-12 NASB] 10 He said, "I heard the sound of You in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid myself." 11 And He said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you not to eat?" 12 The man said, "The woman whom You gave [to be] with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate."


Observation: Adam was confronted by God and showed no intention of revealing what he had done, but just made empty excuses rather than confess and repent. God knows what happened (omniscience) and invites Adam to confess his sin. Adam responds in typical fallen human fashion by first blaming others (Eve) and then blaming God (“whom you gave me”) for the sin, but never accepting responsibility for his actions. This is human nature without any “special curse”.

Speculation: What Adam was, we still are. We have no intention of coming out of hiding to face God if we have a choice. God must draw us out individually and confront us with the reality of our sin. We will and do respond just like Adam, by first blaming everyone else and then blaming God for our sins. Adam was “Totally Unable” to do what was right and face God, confess his sin and repent of that sin all under the power of his free will … and we have the exact same “Total Inability” as children of Adam.


[Genesis 3:13 NASB] 13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" And the woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."


Observation: Eve only confronts her sin when forced to confront it by God, and she uses her free will to choose to blame someone else rather than acknowledge, confess, repent and ask forgiveness.

Speculation: Eve is no less “Totally Unable” to do what is right than Adam was. This is the “Total Inability” of the human free will to do what God requires without some external compulsion by God.


[Genesis 3:21 NASB] 21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.


Observation: God clothed Adam and Eve to cover their nakedness. Human attempts to cover nakedness are always inadequate. Something had to die to cover their nakedness … sin has a blood cost.

Speculation: Only God can cover the shame of our sin and guilt. All human efforts to cover our sin and guilt are “Totally Ineffective”. Only the shedding of blood, from the sacrifice chosen by God, by the hand of God, will cover our sin and guilt … anything and everything we do to “help” God is “Totally Ineffective”.
 

Earburner

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Just so I understand (since you are so light on explanation) ...
  • The need for messengers in Romans 10:14-15 are negated in Romans 10:16-18.
  • Every person in the world, without exception, has been informed of Jesus by the Holy Spirit starting in the First Century and continuing to this day.
  • There is really no need for missionaries because God has already spread the word.
If I have misunderstood any part of your position, then please just correct me.
The "gospel" (good news) message is, that the Messiah/Jesus was TO come, DID come, IS still coming, and SHALL return in the fulness of His Glory.
The world wasn't just notified of the gospel by church missionaries after Pentecost. Its been going on for a very long time.
 

GodsGrace

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There comes a time when Christians need to simply walk away from spiritual nonsense. This thread (and similar threads) are pointless and do not edify.
Not only do they NOT EDIFY...which most don't anyway...
but it shows how calvinism makes no logical sense at all...


Would God want His people to be split...
one part having one paradigm...
and one part having a different, and opposite, paradigm.
I don't believe so...thus calvinism cannot be correct.
 

Mjh29

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Oh, but you do have the power to choose to walk in your fallen free will. You do so, by neglecting to walk in the Spirit.
So, I don't assume anything of what you'll say next, but I do know what scripture says about how we must CHOOSE to "walk in the Spirit". But if we don't choose, then we will fulfill the lust of the flesh, as shown in verse 20-21. And by that, we pursue it with our own permission.
Gal. 5[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

You can tell a blind man that he needs to see. That doesn't mean he CAN. He needs a transformation of the heart before he is able to do anything. Again, just because God requires it does not mean that we can live up to it... in fact, the point is to show that we CAN'T

Who is the "we" here? Christians. Not reprobates, not fallen unregenerate sinners. Christians are the target audience here. They can only please God and walk in the flesh because they are changed of heart. Read the context; buffet theology doesn't get us very far.
 
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Enoch111

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...buffet theology doesn't get us very far.
And this coming from a committed Calvinist who cherry picks verses to support his false gospel.

Yes, the New Birth is meant to transform the sinner into an actual saint, but the New Birth comes AFTER the Holy Spirit is given as a gift, and the Holy Spirit is given AFTER the sinner repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. But you would prefer to put the cart before the horse.
 

Mjh29

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Since you say God determines EVERYTHING,,,He must surely be a God of confusion...
and yet the bible teaches me that He is NOT a God of confusion.

How does God controlling everything make Him a god of confusion? This makes no sense and is not backed by logic or Scriptures.

And yet, here we are:
YOU believe God predestinates everything..
I believe in Free Will...
Surely this is CONFUSION.
Why would God make us believe differently IF HE ORDERS EVERYTHING??

Because God allows autonomy. He allows for there to be differences in opinions and for us to act according to our natures. But He is in control of the course of everything; nothing happens without Him allowing it to happen.

You see confusion, but I say again; YOU CANNOT SEE THINGS FROM GOD'S POINT OF VIEW! You and I are creatures; we can't possibly comprehend the wonders of God's plan and providence, or of His sovereignty. The problem here is you demanding of God "EXPLAIN YOURSELF!!!"

So then I guess God predetermined the killing of all the children in Bethlehem when Jesus was born?
Matthew 2:16

Yep. God allowed it to happen. It happened, didn't it? This isn't a question of free will. Let's pretend for a moment that there is free will. So, what you are saying is God didn't want it to happen, but man's will was just too strong for God to stop this from happening? Is man's will more powerful than God's? What you are doing here is questioning the goodness of God, not free will.

God is a murderer?
And yet one of the commandments is
YOU WILL NOT MURDER.
Exodus 20:13

So, God, THE MORAL BEING, does not follow His own commandments?

God allows for murder. He allows men to act upon their fallen and sinful natures and to do wicked and despicable things; but all these things are ordained by God and, regardless of the intent of the criminal, will be used to bring God maximum glory.

Please post the scripture that you're speaking of.

1.) I don't do "A Scripture." One verse can and so often is pulled out of context to defend a heretical position. I do Scriptures, as in taking what the whole of Scriptures says about a topic, not cherry picking.

Verses about Man's Depravity:

1.) Spiritual Deadness
~ Ephesians 2:1-3 -- Christians were once DEAD in trespasses and sins, and walked according to the will of SATAN
~ Colossians 2:13 -- DEAD in trespasses

2.) Darkened Minds and Corrupted Hearts
~ Genesis 6:5 -- Our hearts are ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY
~ Genesis 8:21 -- The intentions of our hearts are EVIL
~ Ecclesiastes 9:3 -- Out hearts are FULL OF EVIL
~ Jeremiah 17:9 -- The heart is DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL and DESPERATELY WICKED
~ John 3:19 -- Men HATED THE LIGHT because our DEEDS ARE EVIL
~ Romans 8:7-8 -- Those in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD
~ 1 Corinthians 2:14 -- The natural person DOES NOT ACCEPT the things of God, and CANNOT UNDERSTAND THEM
~ Titus 1:15 -- Both our MINDS AND CONSCIENCES are DEFILED

Maybe what you say is true of you.
I am a child of God that sins.

I am indeed. But my love is only acceptable through the intercession of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit; otherwise my love is just as heinous.

Since your views are based on scripture...you should use it more.

I use the Scripture as much as I can, thanks for noticing.

Carpet bombing fails every time.

I even took the time to explain each verse's meaning. I'm not carpet bombing; I just REFUSE to do "One-Verse Theology". If I am going to believe something, it has to be firmly rooted in the Word of God, and has to be supported by the WHOLE of Scripture. If you want to take the verses one at a time, and explain why they are wrong, you may do so. But my theology cannot be built on one verse; that is a weak theology that invites heresy.
 
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Mjh29

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And this coming from a committed Calvinist who cherry picks verses to support his false gospel.

So many accusations, so little evidence. You can name call and slander all day long; without Biblical evidence to back up your claims it means little to me. You have yet to explain where the verses and explanations I gave are wrong; you just come in and give your opinion, and expect me to put it on par with the Word of God.

Yes, the New Birth is meant to transform the sinner into an actual saint, but the New Birth comes AFTER the Holy Spirit is given as a gift, and the Holy Spirit is given AFTER the sinner repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. But you would prefer to put the cart before the horse.

Romans 8:7-8 -- The sinner CANNOT repent, because he has no understanding.
1 Corinthians 2:14 -- The sinner has NOT UNDERSTANDING
Ephesians 4:17-19 -- NO UNDERSTANDING

Luke 16:13 -- Man CANNOT SERVE 2 MASTERS

Who is man's master?
John 8:44
Ephesians 2:1-2
2 Timothy 2:25-26
1 John 3:10
1 John 5:19
John 8:34
Titus 3:3

SIN IS MAN'S MASTER

The Scriptures make man's state before God and in regards to following Him VERY clear. Man cannot repent, cannot 'chose' until something is done about man's wicked heart and slavery to sin.
 
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GodsGrace

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How does God controlling everything make Him a god of confusion? This makes no sense and is not backed by logic or Scriptures.
Is God controlling everything the same to your understanding as God giving us free will but ALLOWING things to happen?

What do you mean by controlling?
I agree that God allows things to happen...
I believe that the end result will be what HE intended it to be.
In the end God will achieve what He wanted to achieve - whatever that may be.
But this does not mean that we do not have free will...
God is sovereign and does not fear giving man free will.
I don't cherry pick either....here are some verses that show we have free will AFTER the fall of Adam.

Deuteronomy 30:15, 19 ......We are asked to CHOOSE between life and death.
Ezekiel 18:30-32.................Turn from your ways....Get a new heart...Repent and live.
Isaiah 55:6-7......................Seek the Lord....Call on Him...He will have mercy.
Romans 10:9-10...............Declare with your mouth..believe with your heart.
Mark 8:34......................Whoever wants to be my disciple.
John 7:17....................Choose to do the will of God.
Galatians 5:13.............We are called to be free.

There are many more passages in the bible that speak to our free will..
The O.T. speaks of FREE WILL offerings.
Jesus cried over Jerusalem because the Jews would not go to Him....
Why cry over Jerusalem if Jesus KNEW that God had predetermined everything and had everything under control? Did Jesus not trust the Father?

Because God allows autonomy. He allows for there to be differences in opinions and for us to act according to our natures. But He is in control of the course of everything; nothing happens without Him allowing it to happen.
I claimed that we Christians having differing opinions is cause for confusion. I posted that God is NOT a God of confusion.
Where does scripture say that we can have our own opinions REGARDING GOD??
Jesus told the Apostles to go into the world and teach ...
Did they teach different concepts to different persons?

You see confusion, but I say again; YOU CANNOT SEE THINGS FROM GOD'S POINT OF VIEW! You and I are creatures; we can't possibly comprehend the wonders of God's plan and providence, or of His sovereignty. The problem here is you demanding of God "EXPLAIN YOURSELF!!!"
When did I say God needs to explain Himself?
Of course God has a different point of view.
We do, however, know about §God what He has allowed us to know.
And I agree that we do not know His final plan.



Yep. God allowed it to happen. It happened, didn't it? This isn't a question of free will. Let's pretend for a moment that there is free will. So, what you are saying is God didn't want it to happen, but man's will was just too strong for God to stop this from happening? Is man's will more powerful than God's? What you are doing here is questioning the goodness of God, not free will.
As I've already stated,,,,I agree that God allows things to happen...
Incl the killing of infants under two at the time of Jesus birth.

My point was that God did not PLAN THIS BEFORE TIME BEGAN....
He just KNEW it would happen.
IF you believe in predestination, then you believe GOD PLANNED
the killings.

This was not about free will but about God not being a murderer.
If God plans everything...then that would have made Him a murderer.



God allows for murder. He allows men to act upon their fallen and sinful natures and to do wicked and despicable things; but all these things are ordained by God and, regardless of the intent of the criminal, will be used to bring God maximum glory.
How does murder bring God glory?

John 1:14 brings God glory.
2 Corinthians 4:6 is God's glory.

.......and more.



1.) I don't do "A Scripture." One verse can and so often is pulled out of context to defend a heretical position. I do Scriptures, as in taking what the whole of Scriptures says about a topic, not cherry picking.

Verses about Man's Depravity:

1.) Spiritual Deadness
~ Ephesians 2:1-3 -- Christians were once DEAD in trespasses and sins, and walked according to the will of SATAN
~ Colossians 2:13 -- DEAD in trespasses

2.) Darkened Minds and Corrupted Hearts
~ Genesis 6:5 -- Our hearts are ONLY EVIL CONTINUALLY
~ Genesis 8:21 -- The intentions of our hearts are EVIL
~ Ecclesiastes 9:3 -- Out hearts are FULL OF EVIL
~ Jeremiah 17:9 -- The heart is DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL and DESPERATELY WICKED
~ John 3:19 -- Men HATED THE LIGHT because our DEEDS ARE EVIL
~ Romans 8:7-8 -- Those in the flesh CANNOT PLEASE GOD
~ 1 Corinthians 2:14 -- The natural person DOES NOT ACCEPT the things of God, and CANNOT UNDERSTAND THEM
~ Titus 1:15 -- Both our MINDS AND CONSCIENCES are DEFILED



I am indeed. But my love is only acceptable through the intercession of Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit; otherwise my love is just as heinous.



I use the Scripture as much as I can, thanks for noticing.



I even took the time to explain each verse's meaning. I'm not carpet bombing; I just REFUSE to do "One-Verse Theology". If I am going to believe something, it has to be firmly rooted in the Word of God, and has to be supported by the WHOLE of Scripture. If you want to take the verses one at a time, and explain why they are wrong, you may do so. But my theology cannot be built on one verse; that is a weak theology that invites heresy.
There's no such thing as "one-verse theology"....
I fear you don't like to examine or exegete verses.

I'll try to pick a couple from the top and go through them tomorrow morning.
 

Mjh29

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Deuteronomy 30:15, 19 ......We are asked to CHOOSE between life and death.

Yes, all men have a choice to make. Here is the dilemma; Man's will is not free. It is enslaved to sin. Yes, God did say that all men need to make a choice, and gave them this choice to make. But they are not neutral; by birth and by nature they are the children of the Devil, and will do Satan's work, which is hating God.

1.) I find it important to mention this; when did God ever give this same choice to anyone other than the people of God? Why did God not give this choice to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, or to the giant in the promised land?

2.) Those who would chose to follow "life and good" were those whose hearts had been changed by the work of the Holy Spirit, and trusted in the promises of God because of it. Those who would chose "death and evil" are the natural men, whose hearts have not been touched by the Spirit and will not trust in the promises of God.

This verse is not a contradiction to what I have been saying. Simply a misapplication of a common Scriptural truth.

Ezekiel 18:30-32.................Turn from your ways....Get a new heart...Repent and live.

Again, God is talking to the nation of Israel; His people. And anyone who would turn from their evil ways only do so because of the work of the Spirit in their lives; all others will follow their nature and hate God and refuse to change.

Isaiah 55:6-7......................Seek the Lord....Call on Him...He will have mercy.


If a person is seeking God and calls on Him it is only because of the work of the Spirit in their lives; all others will follow their nature and hate God.
See how simple this is? It's not at all that the Scriptures don't say what you are quoting; You're just trying to solve a puzzle with only half the pieces. The rest of the passages you quoted can be understood in like manner; everything you claim is of man; the choosing, the following, the willing, ect... Only happenes AFTER the Spirit has changed the person's will.

Jesus cried over Jerusalem because the Jews would not go to Him....
Why cry over Jerusalem if Jesus KNEW that God had predetermined everything and had everything under control? Did Jesus not trust the Father?

How could Christ know the Jews would not come to Him if they hadn't made their free-will choice yet?!? All of the Jews did not hate him, but it did sadden Christ that most of them would.

I claimed that we Christians having differing opinions is cause for confusion. I posted that God is NOT a God of confusion.
Where does scripture say that we can have our own opinions REGARDING GOD??

God allows for truth and untruth. Not that both are ACCEPTABLE, but both are ALLOWED TO BE. God only accepts truth, but He does allow those who want to be wrong to be wrong.

When did I say God needs to explain Himself?
Of course God has a different point of view.
We do, however, know about §God what He has allowed us to know.
And I agree that we do not know His final plan.

My only point was that we need to take a step back, and stop saying things like "A fair God would do this" or "How could God be OK with that" and understand how far above us God is.

My point was that God did not PLAN THIS BEFORE TIME BEGAN....
He just KNEW it would happen.

Time was the Creation of God. If He did not plan it, the WHY DID HE NOT STOP IT?? If it was not part of the plan of God, it would not have happened. He had the power and authority to stop it; my question is if God didn't plan it, WHY DID IT HAPPEN?

How does murder bring God glory?

Isaiah 53:10 -- The murder of Christ brought God glory.

Of course murder is wrong. It is a heinous act that deserves the life of the one who committed it. It is wrong Biblically and morally. But that does not mean that God cannot take sin and make out of it something for His glory. I do not claim to be able to tell you HOW He does it; simply that God Himself is more powerful than sin, even the most wretched of sins, and can use even the worst of scenarios for His glory. Again, if it was not part of His plan, why did He not use His omnipotence to STOP IT FROM EVER HAPPENING?

There's no such thing as "one-verse theology"....
I fear you don't like to examine or exegete verses.

I love nothing more. My problem is that theology centered around man always takes away from the Glory of God. Man's choice rather than God's sovereignty, Man's will rather than the Spirit's work, man's ability to produce faith of himself rather than God's mercy in giving grace. It bleeds the God centered gospel dry, and replaces it with something that is no better than the heathen worshiping idols.
 

GodsGrace

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Yes, all men have a choice to make. Here is the dilemma; Man's will is not free. It is enslaved to sin. Yes, God did say that all men need to make a choice, and gave them this choice to make. But they are not neutral; by birth and by nature they are the children of the Devil, and will do Satan's work, which is hating God.

1.) I find it important to mention this; when did God ever give this same choice to anyone other than the people of God? Why did God not give this choice to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, or to the giant in the promised land?

2.) Those who would chose to follow "life and good" were those whose hearts had been changed by the work of the Holy Spirit, and trusted in the promises of God because of it. Those who would chose "death and evil" are the natural men, whose hearts have not been touched by the Spirit and will not trust in the promises of God.

This verse is not a contradiction to what I have been saying. Simply a misapplication of a common Scriptural truth.



Again, God is talking to the nation of Israel; His people. And anyone who would turn from their evil ways only do so because of the work of the Spirit in their lives; all others will follow their nature and hate God and refuse to change.




If a person is seeking God and calls on Him it is only because of the work of the Spirit in their lives; all others will follow their nature and hate God.
See how simple this is? It's not at all that the Scriptures don't say what you are quoting; You're just trying to solve a puzzle with only half the pieces. The rest of the passages you quoted can be understood in like manner; everything you claim is of man; the choosing, the following, the willing, ect... Only happenes AFTER the Spirit has changed the person's will.



How could Christ know the Jews would not come to Him if they hadn't made their free-will choice yet?!? All of the Jews did not hate him, but it did sadden Christ that most of them would.



God allows for truth and untruth. Not that both are ACCEPTABLE, but both are ALLOWED TO BE. God only accepts truth, but He does allow those who want to be wrong to be wrong.



My only point was that we need to take a step back, and stop saying things like "A fair God would do this" or "How could God be OK with that" and understand how far above us God is.



Time was the Creation of God. If He did not plan it, the WHY DID HE NOT STOP IT?? If it was not part of the plan of God, it would not have happened. He had the power and authority to stop it; my question is if God didn't plan it, WHY DID IT HAPPEN?



Isaiah 53:10 -- The murder of Christ brought God glory.

Of course murder is wrong. It is a heinous act that deserves the life of the one who committed it. It is wrong Biblically and morally. But that does not mean that God cannot take sin and make out of it something for His glory. I do not claim to be able to tell you HOW He does it; simply that God Himself is more powerful than sin, even the most wretched of sins, and can use even the worst of scenarios for His glory. Again, if it was not part of His plan, why did He not use His omnipotence to STOP IT FROM EVER HAPPENING?



I love nothing more. My problem is that theology centered around man always takes away from the Glory of God. Man's choice rather than God's sovereignty, Man's will rather than the Spirit's work, man's ability to produce faith of himself rather than God's mercy in giving grace. It bleeds the God centered gospel dry, and replaces it with something that is no better than the heathen worshiping idols.
OK. I understand what you're saying.
IOW, one must be born again first...
and THEN believe.

What does free will mean to you?
Because if the above is correct about God allowing us to believe what we wish to believe...
Then isn't that free will?

Or is He playing some weird game with us?
Allowing some to know the truth and some to NOT know the truth and be deceived?

If you clarify what free will means to you,,,
I'd like to go ahead and show how believing causes the rebirth of the person.
And, I'd like to go through your verses, one by one.
 

Mjh29

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OK. I understand what you're saying.
IOW, one must be born again first...
and THEN believe.

Yes exactly. I hold faith in very high regard... I just believe that it is a gift of grace
 

Mjh29

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What does free will mean to you?
Because if the above is correct about God allowing us to believe what we wish to believe...
Then isn't that free will?

The problem is that man's will is enslaved to sin, and not free. In and of himself, he is evil and a slave of Satan; man will do Satan's will unless God changes his will. This is why I do not call it FREE will.... it is not free; it is completely influenced and enslaved by sin and Satan
 

Mjh29

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If you clarify what free will means to you,,,
I'd like to go ahead and show how believing causes the rebirth of the person.
And, I'd like to go through your verses, one by one.

You can if you would like to, though again I believe in the whole of Scripture supporting one another, which means my theology is built upon verses not just one verse.
 

GodsGrace

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Yes exactly. I hold faith in very high regard... I just believe that it is a gift of grace
Here's what is most believed about

Ephesians 2:8
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;


It's asked what is the gift from God in the above verse.
Is it Grace? Faith? Salvation? (of which it's speaking).
It's believed by some scholars that it refers to all three.
Some believe it refers to faith.

Grace is definitely a gift.
We are saved THROUGH FAITH...to me this means that it is OUR FAITH that saves us.
However, some scholars (Greek) believe the gift refers to faith.
And some believe it means all three.

I, personally, don't understand how faith could be a gift.
We are saved through faith...which means when we have faith in God we will be saved.

You believe salvation comes first,,,and then faith and belief.
This certainly makes sense with the idea of Unconditoinal Election.
God would be giving the gift of faith to those HE wishes to save.

But then how would you explain the verses that state God wants everyone to be saved?
(NOT universalism....but Conditional Election: Conditional on accepting His conditions).

Matthew 23:37 Jesus laments over Jerusalem's unwillingness to go to Him. He wished everyone would.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 Clearly states that God desires all men to be saved.

2 Peter 3:9 God is patient (regarding the end times) because He does not want any to
perish.


I don't care to go back and forth forever....we're not going to change each other's minds.
I just don't understand how anyone could think salvation comes before belief...

Many verses say we must believe to be saved...not the other way around.

I'd go a step further and say that Jesus did not even speak too much about being "saved"..He spoke more about WHAT we're TO DO to be saved...
For instance John 15:10 which states that if we KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS we will abide in His love.

Sounds like works salvation...but I do see this in the N.T.
Although, I do NOT believe our works save us UNLESS we have faith in God.
 

GodsGrace

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The problem is that man's will is enslaved to sin, and not free. In and of himself, he is evil and a slave of Satan; man will do Satan's will unless God changes his will. This is why I do not call it FREE will.... it is not free; it is completely influenced and enslaved by sin and Satan
In a sense I agree with the above.
Man is not truly free until he shakes off his shoulders the voice of satan.
We are the slaves to one one to whom we present ourselves. Romans 6:16
which Jesus Himself states in John 15:5 Those who abide in HIM will bear much fruit...
and without Him we can do nothing.

Once our mind, will and emotions are free to love God and man, then we can say that we are truly free.

Being free means that we can choose whether or not we want to do what is moral or what is not moral. It means having two choices from which we can choose...without having any outside force impose the choice on us.

Paul is writing to Philemon and tells him that he (Paul) leaves Ph to give his decision of his own free will. Philemon 14....
 

GodsGrace

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You can if you would like to, though again I believe in the whole of Scripture supporting one another, which means my theology is built upon verses not just one verse.
I agree wholeheartedly....
But I do not see anywhere in the N.T. or O.T. that can support the TULIP...

Not even the P.