As far as I know, the gospel of John is the only one that was written by an Apostle.
Could you state why you don't believe John was the writer?
And what about Revelation?
Total Inability: Genesis 1-4
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Could you state why you don't believe John was the writer?
And what about Revelation?
Matthew was not written by the Apostle Matthew.
It was written much later, and most probably copied from Mark.
I'd rather not discuss this F.
It makes no difference what one believes.
There are theologians that believe the Apostle Matthew wrote the gospel.
The important point is that it was written and that it's based on reality.
Yes, please post all of your personal information so we can verify your identity and take out Credit Cards in your name.
(see the problem?)
This part of the exchange has just gotten silly.
Feel free to respond with the last word.
GOOD NEWS! Only God can settle that one for sure because only Jesus can decide whose sins he was carrying.
Both views have "issues" from a human logic perspective.
Limited Atonement calls into question "God loves all" and Unlimited Atonement has God saving none but merely "offering salvation" to all (plus punishing the same sin twice). Unfortunately, there is scripture to support both and irrefutable scripture to support neither. So God or a coin toss will need to settle that one. (Anyone know what happened to the Uman and Thurman from the Temple?)
For whoever is reading and is interested...
OzSpen is who he says he is and more....
He is rather modest TTYTT.
He has a public page with his name on it, so he is not giving away any information that is not public.
I do agree that there is no need for any of us to prove what we might say about ourselves---members are free to believe or not believe.
What do you mean?
The N.T. teaches that Jesus carried the sins of the whole world...
1 John 2:2
Past, present and future.
But we still need to confess them...
And it IS salvation that is OFFERED...As usual, I say that we must ACCEPT this offering.
John 3:16 is an exhortation.
What do you mean by punishing the same sin twice?
No temple...
No Uman and Thurman?
What do you understand them to be?
The Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) was given to Israel as a type of the Day of Crucifixion (the true and final Day of Atonement). ALL THE SINS OF ISRAEL were atoned for on that day.
And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. (Lev 16:29,30)
Which points to the fact that ALL THE SINS OF THE WORLD were atoned for on Nisan 14 AD 30 when Christ became the ultimate Lamb of God (as well as the Passover Lamb) who TOOK AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD (John 1:29 and many other passages). Was John the Baptist speaking the words of God as a prophet of God, or was he lying?
So what you have stated above is disingenuous if not outright dishonest.
Did God punish Jesus for the sins of Adolph Hitler?
Assuming Adfolph Hitler clung to his belief in the occult and his rejection of Christ right up to his death, will God punish Adollph Hitler in Hell for his sins?
So God already punished Jesus for the sins of Adolph Hitler in AD 33 and God will also punish Adolph Hitler in hell for those same sins ... those sins are punished twice (Jesus and Hell).
Horay! The whole world is sinless. Bring on Universalism and let me get my sharpie.
(I think you have left something out.)
Not being hypocritical. You have yet to actually answer any of my questions, simply answering them with more questions and jabs rather than actually addressing the questions. Let's take a look at what the Scriptures teach, and step away from personal presuppositions and college degrees.
1.) We know that Salvation cannot be Unlimited because the Scriptures speak of a specific people of God
~ Deuteronomy 10:14-15
~ Psalms 33:12
~ Psalms 65:4
~ Psalms 106:5
~ Matthew 11:27
~ Matthew 22:14
~ Matthew 24:22
~ Matthew 24:24
~ Matthew 24: 31
~ Luke 18:7
~ Romans 8:28-30
~ Romans 8:33
~ Romans 11:28
~ Colossians 3:12
~ Titus 1:1
~ 1 Peter 2:8-9
- This election preceded Salvation
~ Romans 11:7
~ 2 Timothy 2:10
~ Acts 13:48
~ 1 Thessalonians 1:4
~ 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
~ Ephesians 1:4
Jesus came to actually save sinners, not to make them savable. He did not merely throw out his blood for all to latch onto; He made his blood effective for those whom He chose by the power of His spirit.
~ Matthew 1:21
~ Luke 19:10
~ 2 Corinthians 5:21
~ Galatians 1:3-4
~ 1 Timothy 1:15
~ Titus 2:14
~ 1 Peter 3:18
Notice how none of these verses mentions Christ's blood being unlimited, but rather saying that it accomplishes its goals. It does not give the choice to man, but rather gives all the power to Christ, who claims that He saves sinners.
The result of Christ's blood is expressed to be reconciliation and justification.
~ Romans 5:10
~ 2 Corinthians 5:18-19
~ Ephesians 2:15-16
~ Colossians 1:21-22
~ Romans 3:24-25
~ Romans 5:8-9
~ 1 Corinthians 1:30
~ Hebrews 9:12
~ 1 Peter 2:24
How can everyone then be covered by Christ's blood? If the result of the application of His blood is reconciliation and justification, if this blood covers all then all are reconciled to Him, and therefore all are saved.
Another result of Christ's blood is the regeneration and sanctification.
~ Ephesians 1:3-4
~ Philippians 1:29
~ Acts 5:31
~ Titus 2:14
~ Titus 3:5-6
~ Ephesians 5:25-26
~ 1 Corinthians 1:30
~ Hebrews 9:14
~ Hebrews 13:12
~ 1 John 1:7
Again, if the result of the application of His blood is always regeneration and sanctification, how could He have died for all men? This would mean that all men are regenerated and sanctified, which we know is not true!
Christ Himself speaks of His people in finite terms; and He speaks of His work as effective for His people and them alone.
~ John 6:35-40
~ John 10:11-18
~ John 10:24-29
Jesus, in His high priestly prayer, does not pray for the entire world, but for those whom the Father has given to Him.
~ John 17:1-11
~ John 17:20
~ John 17: 24-26
How Jesus died for "All", and yet for a particular people.
Some passages speak of Christ dying for "all" men and of His death as saving the "world", yet others speak of His death as being definite in design and of His dying for a particular people and securing salvation for them.
1.) There are 2 classes of texts that speak of Christ's saving work in general terms:
a.) Those containing the word "world"
~ John 1:9
~ John 1:29
~ John 3:16-17
~ John 4:42
~ 2 Corinthians 5:19
~ 1 John 2:1-2
b.) Those containing the word "all"
~ Romans 5:18
~ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15
~ 1 Timothy 2:4-6
~ Hebrews 2:9
~ 2 Peter 3:9
One of the reasons for the use of these expressions was to correct the false notion that salvation was for the Jews only. Such phrases as "the world", "all men", "all nations", and "every creature" were used by the New Testament writers to emphatically correct this mistake. These expressions are intended to show that Christ died for all men with out distinction, but they are not intended to indicate that Christ died for all men without exception.
There are many passages that speak of Christ's work in definite terms:
~ Matthew 1:21
~ Matthew 20:28
~ Matthew 26:28
~ John 10:11
~ John 11:50-53
~ Acts 20:28
~ Ephesians 5:25-27
~ Romans 8:32-34
~ Hebrews 2:17
~ Hebrews 3:1
~ Hebrews 9:15
~ Hebrews 9:28
We are left with 4 options regarding Christ's death:
1.) Christ died for all sins of all men.
2.) Some sins of some men
3.) Some sins of all men.
4.) All sins of some men
- If 1 is correct, then what about the sin of unbelief? He died for ALL sins, so this would include the sin of unbelief, therefore all men would be saved.
- If 2 or 3 is correct, then there are still some sins that are not covered, which means that no one is saved.
- If 4 is correct, then we see the exact same thing that the Scriptures teach: That Christ died for His people, and that not everyone is of His people.
The word hypocrite is a very strong word, so while were throwing them around, how about heretic? Because believing that man's salvation is in his own hands is a heresy that goes back to a serpent in the garden of Eden.
It was a joke related to flipping a coin. I don't know the specific details of HOW, but I remember reading that the High Priest's breastplate was somehow used to ask God to make a decision by a process like flipping a coin or drawing straws. So rather than flip a coin, I was (humorously) suggesting we use the OT method to decide by chance.
Here it is ... it was "Urim and Thummim"
[Exo 28:30 NASB] 30 "You shall put in the breastpiece of judgment the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be over Aaron's heart when he goes in before the LORD; and Aaron shall carry the judgment of the sons of Israel over his heart before the LORD continually.
Nice strawman.
Now where in all there did Jesus say "I died for every individual without exception" or "I died for the elect from every nation, tribe and tongue"?
Nowhere, so the Limited vs Unlimited Atonement still stands and you are guilty of making false accusations against me. It was neither disingenuous nor dishonest.
(PS. We are not the nation of Israel ... ancestors never been to the Red Sea. Promises to Moses and the 613 Laws are both not for me.)
And thus....limited atonement.
Gotcha.
I'd have to read up on limited atonement again and it's late now.
But if it reads what you said, I could agree.
IOW,,, Jesus died for believers...it's of no value for Him to have died for unbelievers.
OzSpen
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atp,
That's because this is what Hitler did:
‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing' (Matt 23:37 NIV). Or as the NIRV puts it, 'And you would not let me!'.
Jesus died for the sins of wicked OzSpen, Idi Amin, Stalin, Pol Pot, Emperor Diocletian, the Auca Indians who murdered the missionaries in Ecuador, etc.
The grace of God has been extended to all people (Titus 2:11) but people resist and are not willing to come to Jesus. Why? Romans 1:18 gives one of the reasons: 'But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness' (NLT).
Seems that you can't understand universal atonement (that does not lead to universal salvation) because you can't comprehend 'you were not willing', i.e. free will given to all people to accept or reject the grace of God in salvation.
Oz
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Willingness has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Christ's blood; unless you are saying that YOU are the one who makes the blood effective, but that still does not help your case. You said that Christ's blood covers all sins! Choice doesn't change that claim. So here's the problem with you logic;
1.) You said Christ died for all sins of all men; Christ paid the penalty and took the punishment for all sins
2.) Hitler did not believe in Christ, and therefore died and went to Hell.
3.) God is now unjustly punishing Hitler for the very same sins that Christ died for and paid for on the Cross. Hitler's choice does not change the fact that you claim Christ paid the penalty for all sins, and still God punishes those in Hell for sins already paid for!!!
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