Transubstantiation. What is it?

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Hobie

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This fallacy can quickly be discounted if you look and ask yourself, did Jesus take His own flesh and blood and give it to the apostles?
Matthew 26:26-28
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

There are two possibilities
1. Jesus changed the bread and wine actually into his own flesh and blood.
2. Jesus was using metaphor to describe his death as the means of life for us.

Think about it...
John 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
 
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Robert Pate

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This fallacy can quickly be discontent if you look and ask yourself, did Jesus take His own flesh and blood and give it to the apostles?
Matthew 26:26-28
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

There are two possibilities
1. Jesus changed the bread and wine actually into his own flesh and blood.
2. Jesus was using metaphor to describe his death as the means of life for us.

Think about it...
John 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
I will go with number 2.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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The best example is the Gospel. In the Gospel we have been crucified with Christ. In the Gospel we have been resurrected with Christ. Romans 6: 3-8. In the Gospel we are Complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. This is all spiritual.

No it is actual and reality. Believers are brand new creatures! We have been born again! The old man is passed and we are now a brand new creature. It is not symbolic or metaphoric but real.
 

quietthinker

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This fallacy can quickly be discounted if you look and ask yourself, did Jesus take His own flesh and blood and give it to the apostles?
Matthew 26:26-28
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

There are two possibilities
1. Jesus changed the bread and wine actually into his own flesh and blood.
2. Jesus was using metaphor to describe his death as the means of life for us.

Think about it...
John 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Only a darkened understanding will not see that it's a metaphor.....and in that vein, ie, a darkened understanding, men in their wisdom, will make pigs fly with rainbow coloured embellishments.
 

quietthinker

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This fallacy can quickly be discounted if you look and ask yourself, did Jesus take His own flesh and blood and give it to the apostles?
Matthew 26:26-28
26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

There are two possibilities
1. Jesus changed the bread and wine actually into his own flesh and blood.
2. Jesus was using metaphor to describe his death as the means of life for us.

Think about it...
John 6:35
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
Only a darkened understanding will not see that it's a metaphor.....and in that vein, ie, a darkened understanding, men in their wisdom, will make pigs fly with rainbow coloured embellishments.
 

amigo de christo

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We are still sinners saved by grace.
and CHANGED by grace . i lived the old man for many years , could lip the name of JESUS and quoate the gosple
and yet i am gonna tell us something very scary . I was one of the devils own son s. be encouraged my friend .
 
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amigo de christo

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As long as we are in these physical, unredeemed, Adamic bodies we will sin, Romans 8:23.
just remember who we serve is whose we are . lets try and be a FAR MASSIVE bit more serious about sin and error .
Paul preached a lot about that too . I dont seem to remember in any of his letters
him saying things like , THOSE Who sin , DONT JUDGE we all sin . RATHER he said REBUKE before them all
that others might fear .
I dont seem to remember this judge not all inclusive mindset in any of them letters .
Perhaps you should read the parable about lady leaven and her twin sister lady inquity .
I will try and find it and bring it here . SEEING this church age SEEMETH to have no idea at all about just how deadly
leaven is and how fast it must be purged from within the church .
STAY Tuned for lady leaven and her sister lady inquity . The parable is on the way , IF i can find it again .
 
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amigo de christo

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As long as we are in these physical, unredeemed, Adamic bodies we will sin, Romans 8:23.
The parable of the lady of leaven .
There once was a man who kept the door to the house .
Who had been given wise instruction as to what was to be allowed to enter into that house .
And if within that house lady leaven was spotted she was to be removed .
So the man kept the charge of the doorway and did monitor the hallways and did inspections daily
upon all within the house .
The man was quick to remind them , BE SURE and keep your beds good and clean and tidy and in order .
In the process of time
the man began to become a bit slothful in his duty and had become rather concerned with the INCOME UPKEEP
of his house . He began to let things slip within the house in order to keep the people paying every month .
In the process of more time MISS LADY INQUITY and her sister LADY leaven came to call .
She knocked upon the door . The man opened the door
And behold The twin ladies stood before him . He thought within himself
and said OH NO this is lady leaven and her sister lady inquity . BUT quickly became ENAMOURED
with all the treasures she had of monies with her .
SO he decided , okay this will i do . I will not allow her nor her sister to get out of control
but for sake of income i will let them in so as i can keep my montly wage .
The man soon noticed a few complaints from the tenants . The tenants of the building
were noticing certain influences beginning to occur within the house .
They told the man , SINCE lady leaven and her sister did enter
she has been telling certain tenants from within that its no big deal . You dont need to keep your bed so neat and tidy and your
rooms so clean . They have been heeding her .
To which the man then went to lady leaven and her sister and said , Since you two have arrived
the peoples are not keeping clean their rooms as they once did . to which the sisters said
ALAS since we arrived HAVE YOU LACKED income . To which the man then said , WELL NO , INCOME has never
been better . THIS , said they , IS OUR DOING . Now you cannot be so harsh on them nor judge them
ye must simply let GOD correct . ITS Not your job to correct them .
SO the man said , WELL said ladys . TO which he called a meeting of the house
and said before all , IT IS NOT OUR DUTY , nor our call to JUDGE . We must simply try and love them
in the right direction .
The process of time continued on .........
and it was not long before many knocks were coming upon that house . But much noise and uncleanliness they did bring .
A few tenants within said , ITS IMPOSSIBLE for us to live here . we are leaving . you do nothing to try and correct these people .
SO then the man said , alas , let me go again and talk to lady leaven and her sister on this matter .
SO again he went and talked to the two ladies .
He said , ladies , look i am having the threat of some leaving here , can you please tone down the leaven .
TO which again they did reply . SURE you might lose a few , but LOOK at all the numbers you are gaining
Your INCOME , remember YOUR INCOME . IT WILL GROW and you will have larger numbers .
TO which the man said , ALAS you ladies are brilliant . I will get more numbers , so more numbers means more souls
will be saved AND more money too . YOU SO WISE ladies .
SO he went back to the few who did warn him and said , YOU ALL can either find common ground with these ladies
and people or YOU can get out .
IN the process of time the building had began to wear down . the upkeep had been left off .
And in a night and in an hour known to no man , THE ENTIRE BUILDING CRASHED DOWN , KILLING ALL WITHIN IT .
JUST a friendly parable to remind us all about what happens when leaven is let into the doors
what is happening and WHAT WILL HAPPEN ON THE DAY OF THE LORD .

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amigo de christo

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Never let leaven go uncorrected within thine church . IF SO , ITS GONNA LEAVEN IT TO THE FULL .
correction is not sin
casting out unrepentant sinners IS NOT SIN .
Making deals IS SIN .
turning a blind eye , IS SIN .
SIXTY SIX and ME . time we got back in the bible again .
 
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Robert Pate

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Never let leaven go uncorrected within thine church . IF SO , ITS GONNA LEAVEN IT TO THE FULL .
correction is not sin
casting out unrepentant sinners IS NOT SIN .
Making deals IS SIN .
turning a blind eye , IS SIN .
SIXTY SIX and ME . time we got back in the bible again .
I can remember when they called homosexuals "fags" and those that were having sex outside of marriage "fornicators". And those that were having sex with people other than their wives or husbands "adulters". Don't hear those words anymore.
 

Lizbeth

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"Transubstantiation". The first part of the word "Trans" means to change. The second part of the word "Substantiation" means the substance. Catholics believe that the bread and the wine in the Eucharist changes into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus. I have trouble with this because it appears to be spiritual cannibalism. What is the purpose of eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus? I believe that they have taken this from John 6:53 where Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you have no life in you" Was Jesus advocating cannibalism? I don't think so. The purpose of transubstantiation is to become more like Jesus.

The Bible is a spiritual book. Paul said, "I have been crucified with Christ" Galatians 2:20. Was Paul actually crucified with Christ? I don't think so. Paul didn't become a Christian until after Jesus returned to heaven. Spiritually speaking, Paul was crucified with Christ, but not actually or physically. Same thing with eating the flesh of Jesus and drinking his blood. Jesus also said, "I am the bread of life" John 6:51. Is Jesus bread? I don't think so. These things have a spiritual meaning. What is the spiritual meaning of these scriptures? What they mean is that Jesus is our life. We live and have our being in him and because of him. This is how we eat his flesh and drink his blood. It has a very spiritual meaning.
Understanding I received from the Lord is that He accepts the bread and wine as being the body and blood of Jesus by PROXY, not by transubstantiation. And He accepts it by proxy because HE ordained it (not man), so there is power in it to "refresh" to us, as it were, His sacrifice.....it is something more than merely symbolic. We are to examine ourselves when we take the communion and if the Lord illuminates any sin on our part we are to repent and take communion/sacrifice which is applied to cleanse/forgive us of the sin. The Lord's supper goes along with washing of our "feet".

But also I agree it is a symbolic allegory of we receiving HIM into our being by faith....Christ IN us (by His Spirit), the hope of glory. We ingest Him as it were when we are born again. As we continue to ingest Him, the Word, afterwards.
 

amigo de christo

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Understanding I received from the Lord is that He accepts the bread and wine as being the body and blood of Jesus by PROXY, not by transubstantiation. And He accepts it by proxy because HE ordained it (not man), so there is power in it to "refresh" to us, as it were, His sacrifice.....it is something more than merely symbolic. We are to examine ourselves when we take the communion and if the Lord illuminates any sin on our part we are to repent and take communion/sacrifice which is applied to cleanse/forgive us of the sin. The Lord's supper goes along with washing of our "feet".

But also I agree it is a symbolic allegory of we receiving HIM into our being by faith....Christ IN us (by His Spirit), the hope of glory. We ingest Him as it were when we are born again. As we continue to ingest Him, the Word, afterwards.
Crucified in Christ . He took on our sins on that cross in the flesh , so as we could be dead to sin and live unto righteousness .
That we being dead to sin should live unto righteousness .
Yep , peter and paul both spoke of this in their letters .
Even the peoples once said HOW can this man give us his flesh to eat . MY WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE .
By HIM we are transformed . HE alone . Even paul mentions that . YE have been tranformed
from darkness and into The KINGDOM of HIS dear son , into HIS LIGHT .
And what does light do , IT MANIFESTS .
How shall a young man cleanse his ways , By taking HEED thereto according to THY WORD .
JESUS is the WORD of GOD and HE had many teachings too , teachings that true lambs BY the SPIRIT
who hear HIS VOICE would have loved and supped upon daily . For a lamb hears the voice of The Great Shepard
and the voice of hirelings who teach contrary , THEY WILL NOT HEED . But in the bible , which they do read and heed , they shall feast
daily . The SPIRIT is given unto all who are HIS and the Spirit testifies of , JESUS CHRIST . IT dont omit certain teachings
of HIS in favor of mens doctrines . THE SPIRIT reminds lambs OF WHAT JESUS SAID , OF TRUTH .
 

Augustin56

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The first group of disciples that left Jesus, left over this very doctrine of His body and blood in the Eucharist. John 6:60 - Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” John 6:66 - As a result of this, many of His disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
Had Jesus been speaking only symbollically, He would have called them back and explained that. But, not only did He not do that, He doubled down on the Apotles and asked if they would also leave. John 6:67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” He was so adamant, that He would have also allowed the Apostles to leave Him, too!

Here is a good article that sheds light on the truth of this topic: The Real Presence Didn't Need Clarification
 

Robert Pate

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The first group of disciples that left Jesus, left over this very doctrine of His body and blood in the Eucharist. John 6:60 - Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” John 6:66 - As a result of this, many of His disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.
Had Jesus been speaking only symbollically, He would have called them back and explained that. But, not only did He not do that, He doubled down on the Apotles and asked if they would also leave. John 6:67 Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?” He was so adamant, that He would have also allowed the Apostles to leave Him, too!

Here is a good article that sheds light on the truth of this topic: The Real Presence Didn't Need Clarification
John 6:25-59 is symbolic, unless you believe that Jesus is teaching cannibalism. The Bible is a spiritual book. Many of the teachings of Jesus are of a spiritual nature. Jesus is only present with us in the Holy Spirit and not is a Catholic ritual. When a cannibal kills someone, they eat their flesh because they believe that gives them power over their victim. Jesus was not teaching cannibalism. Christians take the sacrament in memory of what Jesus did for them, Jesus said, "This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me" Luke 22:19.
 
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Augustin56

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Cannibalism involves eating dead people. Jesus is alive. The first group of disciples left because of this doctrine. Had Jesus been speaking symbollically, He would have been morally obligated to call them back and explain just that to them. "No, I didn't mean literally eat My Body and drink My blood! I was just speaking symbollically! No reason to leave!" But He didn't do that. He was so adamant about this that He offered the Apostles to leave, too. Those who left Jesus, mistakenly believed like you, that it would have been cannibalism, which was forbidden in Jewish law.

Luke 22:19 contains to key parts. 1) "do this" and 2) "in rememberance of Me."

The first part is the what. The "do this" is what He just did. Consecrate the bread and wine and turn it into the actual Body and Blood of Our Lord under the appearances of bread and wine.

The second part is the why. He wanted to be remembered.

Protestants lack Apostolic Succession, and, therefore, the authority given by Christ to confect the Eucharist, so they are correct when they say it is merely a symbol...when referring to Communion in their denomination. Even if they were to say the words of consecration, nothing would happen. The bread and wine would remain bread and wine. Only Catholics and Orthodox have Apostolic Succession, and, therefore, the authority to confect the Eucharist.
 

Robert Pate

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Cannibalism involves eating dead people. Jesus is alive. The first group of disciples left because of this doctrine. Had Jesus been speaking symbollically, He would have been morally obligated to call them back and explain just that to them. "No, I didn't mean literally eat My Body and drink My blood! I was just speaking symbollically! No reason to leave!" But He didn't do that. He was so adamant about this that He offered the Apostles to leave, too. Those who left Jesus, mistakenly believed like you, that it would have been cannibalism, which was forbidden in Jewish law.

Luke 22:19 contains to key parts. 1) "do this" and 2) "in rememberance of Me."

The first part is the what. The "do this" is what He just did. Consecrate the bread and wine and turn it into the actual Body and Blood of Our Lord under the appearances of bread and wine.

The second part is the why. He wanted to be remembered.

Protestants lack Apostolic Succession, and, therefore, the authority given by Christ to confect the Eucharist, so they are correct when they say it is merely a symbol...when referring to Communion in their denomination. Even if they were to say the words of consecration, nothing would happen. The bread and wine would remain bread and wine. Only Catholics and Orthodox have Apostolic Succession, and, therefore, the authority to confect the Eucharist.
Jesus also said that he was the bread of life, John 6:48. Why is it that Catholics don't say much about Jesus being "The bread of Life?" Jesus said, "I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world" John 6:51. This scripture is about Jesus atoning for the sins of the world, It is not really about eating anything. I believe that eating really means believing. When we believe in Jesus it is symbolic of eating. We spiritually become in union with him, otherwise it is cannibalism.

The whole idea behind the Catholic Eucharist is to become more like Jesus, instead of trusting in him. If I eat his flesh and drink his blood, I will be like him. No one can ever become like Jesus because everyone is a sinner, born after Adam. Romans 5:12.
 
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