In James 2:1-11, he criticized them for the sin of committing favoritism, which is not listed as one of the Ten Commandments.
Tree of Life: A Soup Nazi Commentary on Revelation 22:14 KJV
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- Jan 14, 2015
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Oh, you don't think it's referring to the Ten Commandments?
Then publicly state right here and now which of the Ten Commandments we're at liberty to break.
I didn't say that it is not referring to the Ten Commandments, but that it is not speaking about only ten of God's commandments. God has given many more commandments than just the Ten Commandments, so it is not the case that we only need to obey the Ten Commandments and are at liberty to break God's other commandments, such as those against rape, kidnapping, and favoritism.
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Pretty sure he mentions "adultery" and "kill" which are part of the Ten Commandments...and he says if we break them we become transgressors of the law - and "no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" nor will the "adulterer enter the kingdom of heaven".
Indeed, we are not at liberty to break the Ten Commandments or any or God's other commandments, such as those against committing rape, kidnapping, or favoritism.
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Every single sin - including favoritism - falls under one of the Ten Commandments. Favoritism can be shown to be a variation of "idolatry" because people who engage in favoritism do so because they've elevated the object of their favor to "idol" status despite God's clear teaching that we be "no respecter of persons".
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1stCenturyLady
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Yes I'm sure about that. You can miss it if you are not familiar with the New Covenant of Liberty. Verse 12 states the comparison of the Old Covenant of the ministry of death, verses 2:1-11 to a follower of Christ and His easy yoke of the New Covenant, the ministry of the Holy Spirit James 2:12, 2 Cor. 3:7-9 "But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory." You'd have to be pretty bad to not even meet the easy laws of liberty: "12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty." Remember 1 John 3:4-5 that Christians have the royal laws above already written on our hearts and out of our nature to sin against making us righteous. "4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin." Liberty is freedom from the desire to commit those lawless sins unto death. 1 John 3:24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."
I'm going to a SDA church on Sabbath mornings, but I make sure I don't say anything about this. I don't want to cause any doubt in what they believe. We are too close to second coming to teach the New Covenant. They already believe in Jesus and love their neighbor, therefore they are fulfilling 1 John 3:23. Just because the sign of the Old Covenant, the Sabbath, Deuteronomy 31:13, has been replaced with the new sign of the New Covenant is the Cup of the New Covenant, 1 Corinthians 11:25, they go to church on Saturday out of faith. Romans 14:23b, "whatever is not from faith is sin. 2 Cor. 3:7 "But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory."
Sunday is not a law now either. Nor was it a law then and that is why Hebrews 10:25 shows some not fellowshiping on any day! "25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
Then I celebrate the New Covenant on Resurrection Sunday also. I do believe I've found the two most loving churches in the city!
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That's the problem. You fail to see that James was writing to Christians
You've missed Paul's entire point. The Old Covenant was a "ministry of death" because the people were taught that obedience to what was written on stone was the means to obtain salvation. The New Covenant taught correctly that grace through faith was the means to salvation and obedience is merely the resulting outward evidence of inward conversion to Christ.
The "Law of Liberty" aka "Royal Law" is the "Universal Law of Love" which is broken down into the "Two Great Commandments" which are further broken down into the "Ten Commandments" which is only a "ministry of death" to those who attempt to obtain salvation by obedience to them.
Look, all these high sounding arguments for why the Christian is not obligated to keep the Ten Commandments are overthrown the moment you all are challenged to publicly state which we are at liberty to break.
The Old Covenant was the Ten Commandments written on stone. The New Covenant is the SAME Ten Commandments written on the heart.
"I will write My laws in their minds and on their hearts".
Again, which of the Ten Commandments are we at liberty to break if we're under no obligation to keep them?
[/QUOTE]
In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts. In Psalms 19:7, the Torah is perfect, in Psalms 119:45, it is of liberty, and in Psalms 119:1-3, it blesses those who obey it, so when James 1:25 speaks about the perfect law of liberty that blesses those who obey it, he wasn't saying anything that wasn't already said in the Psalms
In Romans 10:5-8, it references Deuteronomy 30:11-20 as the word of faith hat we proclaim in regard to saying that the Torah is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So the Torah is a ministry of life for those who choose to obey it and the fact that it is a ministry of death for those who choose to refuse to obey it is not a very good reason to choose to refuse to obey it.
Christ set a perfect example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah, and in Matthew 11:28-30, he was inviting people to come to him for rest and to learn from him, so this was his yoke of the Kingdom. By Jesus saying that we would find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where the Torah is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls.
VictoryinJesus
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“No Fruit for you!” Sounds opposite of the Tree of Life which bears the Fruit of Christ which is of Patience, long suffering, brotherly kindness, charity, peace, mercy, grace and forgiveness…there is more Fruit but I can’t remember them all now.
1stCenturyLady
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The whole Bible is written to Christians, but not always ABOUT Christians.That's the problem. You fail to see that James was writing to Christians
For instance I've heard the same argument about 1 John 1:8 that is about Gnostics! Paul wrote Romans 7:5-7
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
Which is more important for a Christian, keeping the letter or the Spirit of the law? How do we keep the Sabbath in the Spirit? That is everyday. We know that keeping the Sabbath DAY is the letter of the law. Keep in mind we can do both in the New Covenant. Most choose Sunday, but we can also choose Saturday without the law.
cc: @Soyeong
Do you not notice a big empty space in the Ten Commandments that is present in the laws of Jesus? Where is the name of Jesus? All 10 are fulfilled in the perfect law of liberty, written in 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
cc: @Soyeong
Correct, but in the Spirit, not the letter. How do we keep the spirit of one day without keeping the letter? Look above at 1 John 3:23 which divides the ten commandments and the last six. That's a big hint.
and @Soyeong
Hebrews 10:25a "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some" Why would some forsake the assembling of themselves together? There was no longer a set day to do so. That is how keeping Sunday became possible depicting Christ's resurrection and also the day of Pentecost fell on a Sunday, the beginning of the New Covenant.
Correct.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
You get a gold star! Jesus is our rest every moment of every day! Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Without Him we are in the flesh and without God.
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1stCenturyLady
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It is important to keep the Law of God by the Spirit, though it is also important to correctly understand what Paul meant by the letter.The whole Bible is written to Christians, but not always ABOUT Christians.
Paul wrote Romans 7:5-7
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
Which is more important for a Christian, keeping the letter or the Spirit of the law? How do we keep the Sabbath in the Spirit? That is everyday. We know that keeping the Sabbath DAY is the letter of the law. Keep in mind we can do both in the New Covenant. Most choose Sunday, but we can also choose Saturday without the law.
cc: @Soyeong
2 Corinthians 3:6 who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
In Jeremiah 31:33 and Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves God putting His law in our mind and writing it on our hearts and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey His law, and there are many verses that make it abundantly clear that obedience to God's law leads to life, such as Deuteronomy 30:15-20, Deuteronomy 32:46-47, Proverbs 3:18, Proverbs 6:23, Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9, Revelation 22:14, Romans 2:6-7, and Romans 6:19-23. Moreover, if obeying the letter refers to correctly obeying what God has commanded and that leads to death, then that would mean that God would be misleading us and shouldn't be trusted.
God's law is spiritual in that it has always been intended to teach us spiritual principles that are fruits of the Spirit/aspects of God's character, so correctly understanding a spiritual principle will always lead us to do take actions that are examples of that principle in accordance with what God's law instructs and will never lead us away from doing actions that were commanded to teach us that principle.
God sanctifies time. A day that is holy is set apart and in order for a day to be set apart there need to also be another day that it is set apart from, so to treat every day the same is to treat none of them as holy. If we did on every day what God wants us to do on the 7th day, then we would do no work, but God also wants us to work on the other six days. In Mark 7:6-9, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so there is nothing wrong with someone following their own tradition of gather on Sunday in addition to obeying God's command to keep the 7th day holy, but they should not hypocritically set aside God's command to keep the 7th day holy in order to establish their own tradition.
I'm not sure what you are referring to. Everything in the Torah is either in regard to how to love God and our neighbor, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:36-40 that those are the greatest two commandments and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so love fulfills the Torah because it shows a correct understanding of what it is instructing us to do.
The Bible doesn't say anything about there no longer being a set day to keep holy or about Sunday depicting Christ's resurrection. Pentecost happens on the day after the 7th Sabbath for a total of 50 days, so it always falls on a Sunday, which is not a change. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant still involves following the Torah.
In Romans 7:22-23, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which held him captive, so it would be absurd to interpret those verses as referring to the Law of God stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and as holding us captive to sin as if Paul delighted in those things, but rather that is the role of the law of sin.
Jesus is the embodiment of God's word expressed through setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to it, so the way that he is our rest is by us embodying God's word through following his example, not by rejecting his example of keeping the 7th day holy.
Then commands to love God and our neighbor are also not listed as part of the Ten Commandments, though disobedience to any of the laws of the Torah can be described as a lack of love.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
You do remember that Paul used to be a Pharisee? That is when he was under the Law and also trapped in sin. Paul was freed from both. Romans 8:2
The New Covenant doesn't give us a law about any day, as that would be of the letter. Along with the Ten Commandments written on stone, we are freed from the Ten Commandments in particular and also the law of sin and death. By the infilling of the Holy Spirit we are held to the higher law of love by the Spirit which no one under the Law could do because they were slaves to sin.
Where do you see Jesus teaching on keeping the Sabbath to His disciples? Only what Jesus taught His disciples is in the New Covenant, not what He argued about with the Pharisees in regards to the Old Covenant they were under. We are not under the Old Covenant AND the New Covenant.
Soyeong, You never once answered HOW we keep the Sabbath by the Spirit every day? I know you are not taught anything but the letter that kills, but I wanted you to at least think about it yourself.
Oh for Pete's sake!! Paul was under the Old Law, which without Christ you cannot keep> Once he converted, he was justified, and with Christ in him, he became a new creature, just like all of us. When that happens the Law is natural to us because of Jesus. We don't want to break any of the Commandments out of love for the Lord, and for our neighbor.
The New Covenant is spoken in the OT Lev19:18, and Deut 6:5. It is only new in the fact that we live those principles through Jesus.
And "resurrection Sunday" was never told to us by Jesus to keep. Only we are to commemorate His death.
The New Covenant is spoken in the OT Lev19:18, and Deut 6:5. It is only new in the fact that we live those principles through Jesus.
And "resurrection Sunday" was never told to us by Jesus to keep. Only we are to commemorate His death.
Paul never stopped identifying as a Pharisee (Acts 23:6) likewise, there were Pharisees who were among the believers (Acts 15:5), so someone does not need to cease to be a Pharisee in order to become a follower of Christ, and Pharisees as a Torah observant branch of Judaism.
In Romans 7:25-8:2, Paul equated the Law of God with the Law of the Spirit by contrasting them both with the law of sin and death. We have been set free from the law of sin and death in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Law of God, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the freedom that we have in Christ is the freedom from sin, not the freedom to do the thing that God has revealed through His law to be sin.
In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, and in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us to obey the Mosaic Law. Likewise, in John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, and in Psalms 119:142, the Mosaic Law is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is. In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Mosaic Law and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law was given by God and the Spirit is God, so it is the Law of the Spirit and it is contradictory to think that the Law of the Spirit is higher than the Law of God. Everything commanded in the Mosaic Law is either in regard to how to love God or how to love our neighbor, so it is the law of love.
Jesus taught his disciples to keep the Sabbath by through his interactions with the Pharisees on the topic and through his example. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, including repenting from breaking the Sabbath. Moreover, Jesus set a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22) and that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6). So Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33). Moreover, Jesus did not establish the New Covenant until the end of his ministry, which means that everything that he taught prior to that point was in regard to how to live under the Mosaic Covenant, which is also how to live under the New Covenant.
Jesus never criticized the Pharisees for obeying the Mosaic Law, but he did criticize them for not obeying it or for not obeying it correctly. For example, in Mark 7:6-9, Jesus said that they were hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing while not neglecting weightier matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so he was not opposing their obedience to the Mosaic Law, but rather he was calling them to have a higher level of obedience to it in a manner that is in accordance with its weightier matters.
The Mosaic Law is the good way where we will find rest for our souls (Jeremiah 6:16-19, Matthew 11:28-30), so obeying it on ever dat s the way to rest on the Spirit on every day, which includes obeying God's command to keep the 7th day holy by doing no work on it.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Romans 7:5-6
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
The Ten Commandments are not the laws of love. In the Old Testament you could not murder, but still hate someone. Jesus explained how His gospel is different from His Father's Laws.
What Jesus taught his disciples in private and to the people is the New Covenant, not what he argued with the Pharisees.
Of course not! Jesus had not died and been resurrected yet.
Keeping the 7th day is not keeping the law everyday.
Soyeong, it hurts to see your lack of knowledge of the gospel. What did Jesus preach?
In Romans 7:22-23, Paul delighted in obeying the Law of God, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive. I would be absurd to interpret those those verses as saying that Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death and that he delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive.
The sum of everything that Jesus taught by word and by example in public and in private was how to obey the Mosaic Law and there has never been another person whose teachings were more thoroughly rooted in the OT.
There is nothing about the resurrection that means that we should reject everything that Jesus taught. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to free us from the Law of God, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20) while returning to the lawlessness that he gave himself to redeem us from is the way to reject what he accomplished through his ministry and through the cross.
God's law commands to rest on the 7th day and to work the other six days. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel that Jesus preached and the main topic that he preached about throughout His ministry was the Kingdom of God.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
The verses you are quoting were from his past before Jesus. You forget Romans 7:5-6 that tells us that we are free from the Mosaic Law, the Ten Commandments. Those were the Old Covenant. Every covenant has a sign of that covenant. The Old Covenant of Ex. 34:28 was the Ten Commandments, and its sign was the Sabbath day Ex. 31:13. The sign of the New Covenant is the Cup of the New Covenant that represented the blood of Jesus. We are no longer under the Old Covenant at all once we have repented and received the gift of the Holy Spirit. You keep talking about the Mosaic Law as if you can put new wine into Old wine skins. You can't. That is why Jesus gave that example.
The whole reason for the Ten Commandments in the first place was because of SIN. Jesus came to free us from sin. Once our sin nature called "the old man" from Romans 6:5-7 has been crucified and freed from sin, it is resurrected with Christ to live righteously naturally. We partake of the divine nature of God, and are no longer under the Mosaic Laws BECAUSE we don't need them to not sin. Why? Because we no longer have a sin nature that caused us to need it.
1 John 3:8-9
8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
Can you see now why we do not need laws that we cannot break?
You are again trying to teach Jesus put new wine into old wine skins. BOOM!
What Jesus taught was to believe on Him. You've never mentioned that once, just us working to obey the major moral laws as if we needed to struggle as in Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
What does your church and you teach on how to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit to be born again?
Which is more important? Believing in Jesus and obeying our conscience where the laws of Jesus to love are written? Or keeping the 7th day Sabbath that is not part of our conscience or nature. (That includes Sunday).
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