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True Church _is_ True Israel

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Bismarck, Oct 7, 2007.

  1. Letsgofishing

    Letsgofishing New Member

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    Gods relationship to the isrealites are spelled out in his covenant to Abraham. here are the promises of that covenant--------------------------------------------------------------------------all verses are from genesis [list type=decimal][*]A great nation was to come out of Abraham, namely, the nation of Israel (Genesis 12:2; 13:16; 15:5; 17:1-2, 7; 22:17)[*]Abraham was promised a land -- specifically, the Land of Canaan (Genesis 12:1, 7; 13:14-15, 17; 15:17-21; 17:8). Later we learn that the privilege of Abraham's descendants, the Jewish people, for living in their land under God's blessing is conditioned upon their obedience (see, for example, Deuteronomy 28-29). But whether the Jews are physically residing inside or outside of the land, or whether anyone else may control it by conquest or any other means, the land belongs to the Jewish people by divine right.[*]Abraham himself was to be greatly blessed (12:2; 15:6; 22:15-17)[*]Abraham's name would be great (12:2)[*]Abraham will be a blessing to others (12:2)[*]Those who bless will be blessed (12:3)[*]The one who curses will be cursed (12:3) -- again and again this principle is operative in the prophets as they pronounce judgment on the nations surrounding Israel for the treatment of His chosen people.[*]In Abraham all the earth will ultimately be blessed, a promise of Gentile blessing (12:3; 22:18)[*]Abraham would receive a son through his wife Sarah (15:1-4; 17:16-21)[*]His descendants would undergo the Egyptian bondage (15:13-14)[*]Other nations as well as Israel would come forth from Abraham (17:3-4, 6; the Arab states are some of these nations)[*]His name was to be changed from Abram to Abraham (17:5)[*]Sarai's name was to be changed to Sarah (17:15)[*]There was to be a token/sign of the covenant -- circumcision (17:9-14).[/list]--------------------------------------------------------------------------There are three promises to keep in mind1. The first, that the Jews would be given a land. staying in the land depended on the Jews obedience to God (in the old testement.) but whether the Jews were living in it or not the land was still theres.2. the seventh, that the gentiles one day also will be Gods chosen people.3. the fifth and six, whoever blesses the isrealites will be blessed and whoever curses the isrealites will be cursed.we are seeing all these promises carried out today.Notice that in the first promise God sets a condition for staying in the land of Isreal. They must be obediant to God. If they are not obediant they are not disowned, they are still Gods chosen race, but they lose the land. We see this played out over and over again in the OT. The isrealites worship false Gods they take longer to get the promise land. and when the isrealites are faithful they finally see the promised land. They turn disobediant and they are exiled ect. This still rings true today, just because the isrealites are disobediant to God by rejecting his son does not mean they are not his chosen race!!Interestingly they are in the promised land today while they are still disobediant. God does not break his promises which means that soon theres going to be a mass conversion to christianity in Isreal. I believe the 144,000 are close.the second key promise the gentiles will share in the right to be Gods chosen people. We have not replaced the isrealites but we have joined there ranks. The non accepting Jews and the accepting Jews and Gentiles should combine as they are Gods chosen people. Don't get me wrong, the disobediant Jews don't have it easy. The world shutters at what they have gone through for disobeying God. But one day the jews will return to christ, as they are his chosen. The same goes for us, remember when Christ says when a lamb leaves the flock he'll leave the other 99 jsut to bring that sheep back. God doesn't let go of his chosen.( I am not promoting the once saved always saved doctrine, I am firmly against it, but that is a completley different discussion.)The third key promise, I brought this up as we are about to see it happen. Palestine,Iran, and all the other countries against isreal are going to be cursed before our very eyes. The Jews will not be defeated ( they are in there promised land for good) and God will pull all strings to protect them if needed. And if he does it should be the scariest, and most powerful display from God we will ever see.This jumped all over the place. So heres the summary.The isrealites despite there disobediance to God are still his chosen people. By accepting Christ we do not replace the isrealites but share this honor with them. God has punished the isrealties trying to bring them back, and as they are now back in the promised land there returning should be very soon.oh yeah, and Palestine stop attacking Isreal it would be bad for your health.your brother in christRyan Fitz
     
  2. ncsojourner

    ncsojourner New Member

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    (Bismarck;19713)
    Matthew 10:34-36Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to 'SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.' [Micah 7:6]
    See also: Luke 12:51
    See also: Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
     
  3. ncsojourner

    ncsojourner New Member

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    Romans 9:6-9 & Galatians 4:21-31, which shows that Jewish Unbelievers are not "sons of Abraham", nor are they Israel. Romans 9:6 is explained by vs 7, 8, 9. This is not talking about Jewish unbelievers being sons of Abraham but the son of the flesh, Ishmael, and his descendants not being the children of God. The children of the promise, Isaac, are counted for the seed. "....for in Isaac shall thy seed be called. (Genesis 21:12) Gal 4:21-31 is saying the same thing.Try reading Romans 9:24, 25, and then read Hosea 1:10 and see if that helps you straighten up who these Gentiles, spoken of in the NT, really are.
     
  4. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    Good job Bismark!!!! What does every one think happened at the cross? Do you think Jesus had two fold purpose for dieing on the cross. All the old testament believers were all saved by faith as we are. We are Isreal that why furturists have a difficult time understanding Revelation. The world will come against us whom is the real Isreal in the last days.
     
  5. Jerusalem Junkie

    Jerusalem Junkie New Member

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    We are Isreal that why furturists have a difficult time understanding Revelation. The world will come against us whom is the real Isreal in the last days.
    Disagree. There is only one Israel it does not include us only the nation of Israel. We are not in G-ds plan for his people. We maybe in a plan but not G-ds plan for Israel.
     
  6. kkboldt

    kkboldt New Member

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    (Two;41737)
    Disagree. There is only one Israel it does not include us only the nation of Israel. We are not in G-ds plan for his people. We maybe in a plan but not G-ds plan for Israel.
    Hey, TWO,I do not agree! We are in "the place where we shall be moved no more." The Stone Kingdom that shall dash the others in pieces.Revelation, Chapter 12 tells us what happened to the "Woman", she "fled into the wilderness on the "wings of a Great Eagle". There she keeps the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. The Jews over in the State of Israeli do not "keep the testimony of Jesus Christ". Nor is that country, "unwalled, nor claimed from the "wilderness". Another interesting passage is contained in the Apocrphyal books in II Esdras:6:7 Then answered I and said, What shall be the parting asunder of the times? or when shall be the end of the first, and the beginning of it that followeth?6:8 And he said unto me, From Abraham unto Isaac, when Jacob and Esau were born of him, Jacob's hand held first the heel of Esau. 6:9 For Esau is the end of the world, and Jacob is the beginning of it that followeth.13:9 And, lo, as he saw the violence of the multitude that came, he neither lifted up his hand, nor held sword, nor any instrument of war:13:10 But only I saw that he sent out of his mouth as it had been a blast of fire, and out of his lips a flaming breath, and out of his tongue he cast out sparks and tempests.13:11 And they were all mixed together; the blast of fire, the flaming breath, and the great tempest; and fell with violence upon the multitude which was prepared to fight, and burned them up every one, so that upon a sudden of an innumerable multitude nothing was to be perceived, but only dust and smell of smoke: when I saw this I was afraid.13:12 Afterward saw I the same man come down from the mountain, and call unto him another peaceable Multitude.13:39 And whereas thou sawest that he gathered another peaceable multitude unto him;13:40 Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.13:41 But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,13:42 That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/apo/es2.htmKim [​IMG]
     
  7. kkboldt

    kkboldt New Member

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    (crooner;41717)
    Good job Bismark!!!! What does every one think happened at the cross? Do you think Jesus had two fold purpose for dieing on the cross. All the old testament believers were all saved by faith as we are. We are Isreal that why furturists have a difficult time understanding Revelation. The world will come against us whom is the real Isreal in the last days.
    Yes, Crooner, I agree! There is much confusion in the world regarding "who" make up God's Israel. What Evangelicals and others who believe as they do, do not know is that when the Ashkenazim Jews named the State of Israeli, they purposely chose the name "Israeli" as to distinguish themselves from the the Biblical Israelites of whom they were taught were "Gentilized" or "heathenized". They DO NOT want to be associated with the Biblical Israelites! But no one listens!The Ashkenazim Jews make up about 97% of the world's population of Jews today. Go to the Jewish Virtual Library to find out. Now Ashkenaz was a son of Japheth, not Shem! The Shemites, or "semites" are descended from Shem! Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Moses on down to Jesus are of SHEM! Not Japheth! With the exception of the small populations of Orthodox Jews still in the world today of which MOST live in the United States now and NOT the State of Israeli.So when the New Testament is referring to the "Gentiles", which means "nations", they are actually referring to "Gentilized Israel" who were lost and scattered among the heathen nations. This is one the most misunderstood things by the modern Christian churches.This is the why the Pharisees and Sadducees wanted nothing to do with the Israelites and why the Apostles were chastised by the Jews for ministering unto "Lost Israel". They were considered "unclean" by the Jews.Peter's dream about the unclean foods is all about this, of which when we read on, we discover the foods are representative of "people, lost Israel" who were considered "unclean" by the Jews.Another misunderstanding is the misuse of the word Jew/Judean. Just because someone lives in the Land of Judea, doesn't mean they are Jews by family line. Just as we have peoples of many nationalities living in the United States and they are all called Americans. So it was in the land of Judea/Judah.Paul, the Apostle was not a "Jew" by nationality or family line, he was an Israelite of the Tribe of Benjamin. Paul was a Judean because he lived in the land of Judah/Judea. But he was ALSO a Roman citizen. So does that make Paul, Roman? No, of course not. Just as he lived in Judea, that didn't make him a Jew. This is why we must be very careful when read the Bible.Though the Jews of the House of Judah are part of Israel, NOT all Israel were considered Jews. They were each known by their Tribal names back then. Northern 10-Tribed Israel SPLIT from Judah around 800 BC. The State of Israeli is NOT the New Jerusalem! The Bible specifically states that the OLD Jerusalem is NOT the NEW Jerusalem!Now what happened to the OLD Jerusalem? It was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD just as Jesus said it would be in Matthew, chapter 24. Jesus said two important things of the Jews. 1.) Matthew 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a NATION bringing forth the fruits thereof."2.) Matthew 23:37-38 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.--------------Jesus told the Jews of Jerusalem, your house is left unto you desolate! What does that mean. It means, NO MORE!And what happened in 70 AD? Jerusalem was destroyed, those that lived in the land of Judah fled for their lives and were scattered and removed from Judah.Yet many want to skip over these passages as if they never existed. Or they want to place a "futurist" interpretation on these. Even so, it STILL says, "behold your house is left to you desolate!"Kim
     
  8. Jerusalem Junkie

    Jerusalem Junkie New Member

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    Another interesting passage is contained in the Apocrphyal books in II Esdras:
    I do not acknowledge the Apocrphyal books.
    Yes, Crooner, I agree! There is much confusion in the world regarding "who" make up God's Israel.
    Agian I disagree.
    Another misunderstanding is the misuse of the word Jew/Judean. Just because someone lives in the Land of Judea, doesn't mean they are Jews by family line. Just as we have peoples of many nationalities living in the United States and they are all called Americans. So it was in the land of Judea/Judah.
    Judea or Judah was the original name put forth but they decided on Israel. Agian The Jews are the apple of G-ds eye. I find it hard to buy that it includes all because consider this Christian is only mentioned 3 times in the Bible so really Jesus himself never acknowledge it as a faith of sorts.
    Paul, the Apostle was not a "Jew" by nationality or family line,
    Theory has it he was Greek. I know this falls outside Christian Moral doctrine but thats what I read somewhere. But what do I know all Christian faiths are right and never wrong aren't they?
     
  9. ncsojourner

    ncsojourner New Member

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  10. ncsojourner

    ncsojourner New Member

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    (tim_from_pa;19681)
    I hope this is not another replacement theology thread.Yes, there is spiritual Israel (ie. the church) but there is also the physical seed of Abraham. And if I may add, actually the tribes of Israel lost to history are the actual ones that embraced Christianity.In other words, many Christian nations are unbeknownst to themselves, the actual physical seed of Abraham. This is why the promises are yet to Israel but it just looks like they apply to the Gentile church when in fact, the Gentile church consists of these physical lineages of Abraham.When the physical is not recognized, but only the spiritual, we get into replacement theology where the church replaced Israel---- but in fact, this is not so.I challenge people to see both sides of the coin and play with a full deck, not just what appears to be on the surface.
    A big Amen on Gen 48:19!Gary
     
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