1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

True Church _is_ True Israel

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Bismarck, Oct 7, 2007.

  1. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Matthew 2:14-15 So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON" [Hosea 11:1]. (1) Hosea 11:1 clearly refers to the nation of Israel, as it is written, "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says YHWH, "Israel is My son, My firstborn"'" [Ex 4:22]. Cf. Isaiah 63:16; Isaiah 64:8; Jeremiah 31:9. Yet, Matt 2:15 clearly refers to the Messiah, an individual (cf. Isaiah 49:3-6). What is the resolution?? (2) The Messiah represents the "spiritual temple" of the True Church, the "Body of Christ" (John 2:21). Members of the True Church are, metaphorically, "members" of that "body" (1 Cor 6:15,12:24; Eph 2:19,3:6,4:25,5:30; Col 3:15). CONCLUSION: Matt 2:15 shows that the Messiah, representing the "Body of Believers in Christ" which is the True Church, is regarded as the (spiritual) Nation of Israel. The True Church is True Israel: (i) Romans 4:16 & Galatians 3:7, which shows that Gentile Believers are spiritual "sons of Abraham". (ii) Romans 9:6-9 & Galatians 4:21-31, which shows that Jewish Unbelievers are not "sons of Abraham", nor are they Israel. (iii) Revelation 2:9, 3:9, which show that some "Jews" are not truly Jews. (iv) Romans 11:14-31, which describes Israel as an Olive Tree, from which Unbelieving Jews have been "broken off" and Believing Gentiles were "grafted in" (v. 19). (v) Matthew 8:10-12, which says that Believing Gentiles will "recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" even as Unbelieving Jews will be "cast out into outer darkness". (vi) Matthew 3:9, in which John the Baptist warns his fellow Jews about relying on their Jewish blood heritage over against Faith in the Messiah.(vii) John 15:1-11, which says Jesus Christ is the "true vine" whose branches are all (and only) those who are found in him
     
  2. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here are some pertinent extracts of this article from the Evangelical-Times.org website:
    On the BBC Sunday programme on 12 May [that was in 2002 - DL] there was a feature concerning so-called ‘replacement theology’. Some in Israel and elsewhere are blaming it for an ‘anti-Israeli’ stance in the West. So what is ‘replacement theology’? None other than the biblical doctrine that the great promises of God in the Old Testament concerning Israel find their fulfilment in the church of Christ! This issue raises a number of fundamental questions which strike at the heart of the gospel. Whatever view we take of Romans 11:26, it is clear that the way of salvation for Jews is, and will always be, the same as for all men — through Christ. That means that converted Jews are members of the church of Christ, not of a special ‘Jewish church’. Paul makes this clear when he says that in Christ ‘there is neither Jew nor Gentile’ (Galatians 3:28). Again, if we are not allowed to apply Old Testament passages concerning Israel to the church of Christ, it puts a wedge between the testaments, and suggests that the OT has no relevance to Christians. This is expressly contradicted by our Lord, who told the Jews that they should find him in all the Scriptures, because they were about him (John 5:39). The Old Testament is an integral part of the Christian Scriptures, not an optional addition. Even Abraham was saved through Christ — he rejoiced to see Christ’s day, and was glad (John 8:56). Shadow and substance According to Hebrews, the church and the gospel are the substance of the OT shadows, the realities behind the old covenant symbols. The old covenant between God and the Jewish nation was ‘ready to vanish away’ (Hebrews 8:13; 9:8-15). Many of our hymns reflect this doctrine: ‘Glorious things of thee are spoken, Zion, city of our God!’ Are we prepared to throw all these away and admit they are the product of flawed theology? We must hold fast to these truths which are integral to the gospel. We love the Jews for Christ’s sake, and long for their conversion — but we do them no service by failing to preach Christ from the Old Testament.It would be ridiculous to view the heroes of faith in Hebrews 11 as belonging to a different religion and excluded from the church. Scripture denies any such thought for, says Hebrews 11:40, they will ‘not be made perfect apart from us’. With us, they will be made perfect, but only as members of Christ’s body, the church!
    My only question about the above article is that, as I understand it, there really was no "replacement". The Olive Tree of Israel is the same today as it was 3,000 years ago:
    • Olive Tree = Israel.
    • Roots = Patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, may God rest their souls).
    • Trunk = Unified Israel (Joshua, Judges, I&II Samuel, I Kings)
    • Natural Branches = Divided & Scattered Israel (I&II Kings; Lost Tribes, Diaspora)
    • Wild Branches = Believing Gentiles
    Thus, at heart, there is no "replacement". At heart, the Olive Tree of Israel is the same tree — only a few Natural Branches have been broken off (by Unbelief) and a few Wild Branches have been grafted in (by Belief).There are many "Messianic Jewish" congregations. Thus, there are many "Natural Branches" still on the ancient Olive Tree of Israel.
     
  3. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    I understand that this is a potentially sensitive issue, yet the Scripture I have cited is equally hard to misunderstand. When those who reject the Messiah, for whatever (sinful) reason, are described as "broken off" and "rejected"... it is very hard to misconstrue what "broken off", "cast out into outer darkness", and "rejected" means. All salvation is through Christ. Again, it is very hard to misconstrue these words: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. The goal of evangelism is to bring everyone ("all nations" [Matt 24:14], including Jews) into Salvation, by Belief and acknowledgement of the Messiah (who was Jewish), yes??
     
  4. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

    Messages:
    371
    Likes Received:
    6
    (Bismarck;19635)
    I understand that this is a potentially sensitive issue, yet the Scripture I have cited is equally hard to misunderstand. When those who reject the Messiah, for whatever (sinful) reason, are described as "broken off" and "rejected"... it is very hard to misconstrue what "broken off", "cast out into outer darkness", and "rejected" means. All salvation is through Christ. Again, it is very hard to misconstrue these words: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. The goal of evangelism is to bring everyone ("all nations" [Matt 24:14], including Jews) into Salvation, by Belief and acknowledgement of the Messiah (who was Jewish), yes??
    Are you saying those like Joshua are not saved? The implication that God would not save those of the old covenant who were first to believe in the Messiah and received him before he was born, like David and Moses are not saved because he had not been born yet, is not to understand how salvation works. Abraham believed God and it was credited unto him as righteousness.All who believe in Jesus have this righteousness credited unto them.Psalm 32:1-2 (King James Version) 1.Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. 2.Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.Were their sins forgiven on the day of atonement? You see understanding the covenants of the Lord God is about understanding he alone can forgive sins. But the righteousness of God is not imputed by works but by faith.Romans 1:16-32.For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17.For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. The Jews have never rejected the belief of the Messiah coming, they just did not accept Christ till the number of gentiles called. But all covenants are based on faith and Gods forgiveness and acceptance his way.Love Faithful.xx:):angel9:
     
  5. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

    Messages:
    1,656
    Likes Received:
    11
    I hope this is not another replacement theology thread.Yes, there is spiritual Israel (ie. the church) but there is also the physical seed of Abraham. And if I may add, actually the tribes of Israel lost to history are the actual ones that embraced Christianity.In other words, many Christian nations are unbeknownst to themselves, the actual physical seed of Abraham. This is why the promises are yet to Israel but it just looks like they apply to the Gentile church when in fact, the Gentile church consists of these physical lineages of Abraham.When the physical is not recognized, but only the spiritual, we get into replacement theology where the church replaced Israel---- but in fact, this is not so.I challenge people to see both sides of the coin and play with a full deck, not just what appears to be on the surface.
     
  6. RobinD69

    RobinD69 New Member

    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    1
    I agree,ther is no need for replacement theology.We must consider that Christ original followers during His earthly ministry were Jews,but His enemy claimed to be Jews.His enemy had rejected the truth for the lies they had promoted in their commenteries therefor making themselve in league with the evil on.Christianity is the continuation of the original faith that goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.Those who followed Christ followed His word which was the OT at the time.Those who rejected Him followed rabbinical commenteries and hid Gods word from the masses.We have a similar problem today,the masses dont read the word so their spiritual leaders can fill them full of bunk while using wordplay and they fall for it.
     
  7. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    (RobinD69;19698)
    I agree,ther is no need for replacement theology.We must consider that Christ original followers during His earthly ministry were Jews,but His enemy claimed to be Jews.His enemy had rejected the truth for the lies they had promoted in their commenteries therefor making themselve in league with the evil on.Christianity is the continuation of the original faith that goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.Those who followed Christ followed His word which was the OT at the time.Those who rejected Him followed rabbinical commenteries and hid Gods word from the masses.We have a similar problem today,the masses dont read the word so their spiritual leaders can fill them full of bunk while using wordplay and they fall for it.
    Yes, the unbroken continuation of the "same old same old" True Belief of Abraham, may God please rest his soul.The coming in of the "Wild Branches" = Believing Gentiles is kind of like King David, for his great grandmother was Ruth the Moabite.Likewise, the breaking off of some "Natural Branches" = Unbelieving Jews is kind of like King Saul, who was of the tribe of Benjamin by blood, but yet rejected YHWH-God's prophet Samuel, and slaughtered the Priests of YHWH-God at Nob (1 Sam 20-22).
     
  8. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Faithful;19655)
    Are you saying those like Joshua are not saved? The implication that God would not save those of the old covenant who were first to believe in the Messiah and received him before he was born, like David and Moses are not saved because he had not been born yet, is not to understand how salvation works. Abraham believed God and it was credited unto him as righteousness.
    Abraham, in c. 1500 BC, was a Christian (who saw and Believed in Jesus Christ):
    John 8:56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
    The coming Messiah was revealed to David, who thereby prophesied about him. The coming Messiah was also revealed to Abraham. We know this, not only from John 8:56, but also:
    Galatians 3:16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed [Gen 22:17]," that is, Christ.Romans 4:13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
    Thus, David, in c. 1000 BC, as a son of Abraham knew of the promised coming Messiah foretold 500 years before.IOW, from Abraham foreward, every true member of the "Old" Covenant was a Christian — who foresaw, and Believed, in the Messiah Jesus.Indeed, this is why the Messiah himself can say:
    Matthew 8:11"I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;Matthew 22:32'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB' [Ex 3:6]? He is not the God of the dead but of the living."
     
  9. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    (RobinD69;19698)
    I agree,ther is no need for replacement theology.We must consider that Christ's original followers during His earthly ministry were Jews, but His enemy claimed to be Jews. His enemy had rejected the truth for the lies they had promoted in their commenteries therefor making themselve in league with the evil on.Christianity is the continuation of the original faith that goes all the way back to Adam and Eve.Those who followed Christ followed His word which was the OT at the time.Those who rejected Him followed rabbinical commenteries and hid Gods word from the masses.We have a similar problem today,the masses dont read the word so their spiritual leaders can fill them full of bunk while using wordplay and they fall for it.
    Matthew 10:34-36Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to 'SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.' [Micah 7:6]
    See also: Luke 12:51
     
  10. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    Whats you point Bismarck??
     
  11. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    repost. After King Solomon's death, the kingdom split into two separate kingdoms, or houses; the house of Israel, and the house of Judah. The house of Israel had the ten tribes, all except the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, who went to make up the house of Judah. When the house of Israel fell into iniquity and sin in idol worship, God sent the men of Assyria to uproot them and scatter them from of their lands. They were brought to a place in northern Iraq and in time went through the Caucasus mountains and scattered to lands across Europe and the Americas. The name that stuck with these then tribes was "Caucasians", named after the event of migration through the Caucasus mountains. Hosea the prophet identifies these tribes and their nations. Hosea 1:10; "...call themselves `the Son of the Living God'." They call themselves Christian nations. The house of Judah and the house of Israel will not be joined back together until after Jesus Christ returns at the seventh trump
     
  12. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

    Messages:
    1,656
    Likes Received:
    11
    Bismarck:I can see where you are coming from, and I agree to a point, but regarding that faith, it was to be had by the actual seed of Abraham as well, as opposed to Gentiles "taking over" what the physical seed of Abraham was promised because they rejected it.Consider the verse in Genesis 12:2-3:And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.Over and over God promised Abraham seed from whom the earth would be blessed. This has dual application as a singular seed (Christ) and multiple seed ( a nation and group of nations) as well. If non-Israelite Gentiles only are the true seed because of faith, then God indeed has switched His plan and made his promises void.Rather, non-Israelite Gentiles are graphed into the commonwealth of Israel, and many of the faith seed today have physical origins in Abraham.What I am trying to get you to realize, because I do not detect it in your posts, is many of the "gentiles" that embraced Christianity are really blood Israelites, although they may not know it. Hence, Israel is both blood and faith children.Don't confuse Israelites with Jews, which are mainly from the southern portion of Israel from the tribes of Judah (hence their name) and Benjamin. Jews are basically two tribes with a few from Levi as well. Israel was basically TWO nations in the OT: the house of Judah to the south, and the house of Israel in the north, to later become the "lost tribes" to historians. The Jews are only one of them. This is why Paul stated that not all are of Israel which are of Israel. There's more to Israel than the Jew in other words. The Jews embraced the LAW (the Old Covenant). Israel embraced GRACE and became a multitude of Gentile nations. They, in turn, are the Christian nations of today that brought the gospel to the rest of the world.
     
  13. tim_from_pa

    tim_from_pa New Member

    Messages:
    1,656
    Likes Received:
    11
    Hey Kriss:Your post before mine was not there yet when I wrote mine. Yet they say the same thing---- two witnesses. I was surprised to see yours there. Sometimes we think so much alike its scary!
     
  14. RobinD69

    RobinD69 New Member

    Messages:
    293
    Likes Received:
    1
    Actually the Ten Tribes were scattered and only the tribes of Ephrim and Mannaseh made the trek to Europe thru the Caucasius Mountains.The entire world is connected to the tribe if Israel by blood since they were non compliant with God in being ministers to all nations,He connected them by blood repeatedly and still they were to ignorant even when Christ can and told them to "Go into all the world and make disciples".They still want to divide by the flesh what God has joined in the spirit.
     
  15. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    (tim_from_pa;19728)
    Hey Kriss:Your post before mine was not there yet when I wrote mine. Yet they say the same thing---- two witnesses. I was surprised to see yours there. Sometimes we think so much alike its scary!
    LOL I just deleted one of my posts because I did the same thing yours wasnt there and our posts were almost identical. Great minds:)
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    (RobinD69;19731)
    Actually the Ten Tribes were scattered and only the tribes of Ephrim and Mannaseh made the trek to Europe thru the Caucasius Mountains.The entire world is connected to the tribe if Israel by blood since they were non compliant with God in being ministers to all nations,He connected them by blood repeatedly and still they were to ignorant even when Christ can and told them to "Go into all the world and make disciples".They still want to divide by the flesh what God has joined in the spirit.
    I wouldn't agree with that though Ephraim and Manasseh became the largest God saved a remnant of all the tribes and scattered them through all the nations
     
  17. kkboldt

    kkboldt New Member

    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Bismarck;19633)
    Matthew 2:14-15 So Joseph got up and took the Child and His mother while it was still night, and left for Egypt. He remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: "OUT OF EGYPT I CALLED MY SON" [Hosea 11:1]. (1) Hosea 11:1 clearly refers to the nation of Israel, as it is written, "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says YHWH, "Israel is My son, My firstborn"'" [Ex 4:22]. Cf. Isaiah 63:16; Isaiah 64:8; Jeremiah 31:9. Yet, Matt 2:15 clearly refers to the Messiah, an individual (cf. Isaiah 49:3-6). What is the resolution?? (2) The Messiah represents the "spiritual temple" of the True Church, the "Body of Christ" (John 2:21). Members of the True Church are, metaphorically, "members" of that "body" (1 Cor 6:15,12:24; Eph 2:19,3:6,4:25,5:30; Col 3:15). CONCLUSION: Matt 2:15 shows that the Messiah, representing the "Body of Believers in Christ" which is the True Church, is regarded as the (spiritual) Nation of Israel. The True Church is True Israel: (i) Romans 4:16 & Galatians 3:7, which shows that Gentile Believers are spiritual "sons of Abraham". (ii) Romans 9:6-9 & Galatians 4:21-31, which shows that Jewish Unbelievers are not "sons of Abraham", nor are they Israel. (iii) Revelation 2:9, 3:9, which show that some "Jews" are not truly Jews. (iv) Romans 11:14-31, which describes Israel as an Olive Tree, from which Unbelieving Jews have been "broken off" and Believing Gentiles were "grafted in" (v. 19). (v) Matthew 8:10-12, which says that Believing Gentiles will "recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" even as Unbelieving Jews will be "cast out into outer darkness". (vi) Matthew 3:9, in which John the Baptist warns his fellow Jews about relying on their Jewish blood heritage over against Faith in the Messiah.(vii) John 15:1-11, which says Jesus Christ is the "true vine" whose branches are all (and only) those who are found in him
    Hi Bismark,Yes, the "Church" or "ecclesia" (the called out ones) are "true" Israel. But I think we need to clarify a few things, though. The church did not "replace" Israel.It was Jews and Israelites who were converted to Christianity in the first place.Here's the Apostle James in James, Chapter 1:James 1:1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."Note: James is addressing ALL TWELVE TRIBES here. So ALL 12 tribes were being converted to Christianity. Of course, there are the exceptions of the Jewish leaders who rejected Jesus. And Jesus said to them, "therefore the kingdom shall be taken from you and given to a NATION, bringing forth the fruits, thereof."So peoples from ALL 12 tribes were converted to Christianity. Now it is THESE people who spread Christianity WESTWARD into Europe then eventually into America.Jesus said, "as the lightening shineth from the east to the west, so shall the coming of the son of man be." How did Christianity spread? From east to west.And these people who went east were known as the "Barbarian Tribes" by the Romans. They consisted of tribal names such as "Jutes, Daanites, Saxons (Isaac sons), Visigoths, Arians (followers of Arius), Sons of Ishachar (Swedes, Finns, Norwegians), The "Van People" or the "Vandals" from Lake Van, those would be who are known as the Dutch peoples today from the tribe of Zebulon, etc., etc. And many Dutch people still carry the "Van" prefix on their last names. The Gauls are the Galatians whom Paul ministered to. They are the ancestors of the Welsh/Gaelic peoples. The Gaelic language according to Yair Davidiy, Orthodox Jew, is very similar to the Hebrew language.Which is why many place names throughout Europe carry Hebrew names, such as the "Hebrides" islands off the coast of Scotland, The Danes, The Danube and Dnieper Rivers, the "Iberian Peninsula" of Spain, named after "Eber", etc, etc.I hope that helps to clear things up a bit.Kim:)
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    71
    I would agree for the most part with you and it is important that all understand the church has not replaced Israel but where I disagree is that all 12 tribes went North only Ten did the other two Judah the largest and Benjamin with their few Levite priests were in the south and did not go north they are todays jews of Israel refered to in prochecy as judah they maintained the scepter the other ten tribes went North to Scotland ect.Eze 37 tells you that these two branches (called sticks) are reunited under Christ it is these 12 that James is speaking to the reunited Jew and christain the 10 tribes that went North are often called Ephriam and Mannash in scripture as these again were the largest tribes they carried the birth right of Josheph I have a study on this if you are interested http://www.christianityboard.com/eze-17-tr...ibes-t6147.html
     
  19. crooner

    crooner New Member

    Messages:
    499
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Bismarck;19713)
    Matthew 10:34-36Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to 'SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.' [Micah 7:6]
    See also: Luke 12:51
    Keep it going Bismark everyone here should be mature enough to hear you out!!! This could be a good debate if everyone will let down the walls. and study scripture. The longer I read these threads the more I see closness instead of openness to learn.The temple was destroyed for a reason!
     
  20. Jerusalem Junkie

    Jerusalem Junkie New Member

    Messages:
    655
    Likes Received:
    0
    I challenge people to see both sides of the coin and play with a full deck, not just what appears to be on the surface.
    You will never get that to happen I can assure you to much narrow mindness....you know its odd that Jesus died on the cross without ever hearing the word christian. Bible records its use in Antioch 40 years after Jesus died on the cross (Acts 11:26)
     
Loading...