Two Extremes of Man's Religion: Works with Faith and Faith without Works

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mailmandan

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You just admitted you believe in the Baptist churches doctrine. And you are a liar.
All you have to do Dan to prove me wrong is give the name of your church. But you refuse. Your silence says more than your words.
I already told you in post #22 that the name of the church I attend is Heartland church and its a non-denominational church and not a Baptist church. No silence on my part. Only slander on your part. Why are you so obsessed with the Baptist church anyway? My beliefs line up more with Baptist church doctrine than they do with Campbellite church doctrine.
 

Phoneman777

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Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?


Deeds of the law alone can justify no man, and faith without works can save no man.
"Works without Faith" - condemned in Luke 15:25-32 KJV - is also known as the "right ditch theology of Legalism" that teaches we can work to gain His approval without trusting in His love.

"Faith without Works" - condemned in James 2:18 KJV - is also known as the "left ditch theology of License" that teaches all holy talk ***but please*** no holy action.

On the Path of the Just, the devil doesn't care which ditch we fall in - but there's nothing more pathetic than walking by and seeing those who've fallen in the left ditch shouting at those on the other side of the street while waving their OSAS License to Sin around in the air, totally oblivious to the danger their in.
 
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Ernest T. Bass

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Wikipedia defines a false dilemma or a false dichotomy as:

"an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. The source of the fallacy lies not in an invalid form of inference but in a false premise. This premise has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives, presenting the viewer with only two absolute choices when in fact, there could be many.

False dilemmas often have the form of treating two contraries, which may both be false, as contradictories, of which one is necessarily true
." (my emp)

A classic example of a false dilemma or false dichotomy is Luther's false notion of faith onlyism. In an attempt to "prove" faith onlyism as "true" they set up a false dischotomy, that being, salvation is by either by (1) faith only or by (2) works of merit. They purposely set up faith only against works of merit when they already know that the Bible says works of merit do not save. Since the Bible says works of merit do not save then that must "prove" faith only is what saves.

As Wikipedia's definition points out, the fallacy of this "faith only dichotomy" is based on the erroneous limits that salvation is either by (1) works of merit or (2) faith only as if there are no other options. In the case of the "faith only dichotomy" it has two contraries: (1) faith only (2) works of merit which both are false but the dichotomy asserts one must be true. It falsely asserts one of these two options must be true by excluding other viable options as OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S WILL.

Obedience is neither faith only nor is it a work of merit. Therefore in order to try and eliminate obedience to God's will as a viable option in being saved, faith onlyists try and and label obedience as a work of merit. Hence if one believes, as myself, that obedience saves, as the BIble clearly does teach (Heb 5:9; Rom 6:16-18; 2 Thess 1:8; Acts 2:38; John 3:16,36; etc), then I am falsely accused of believing in a "works" salvation, that I believe salvation is by a work of merit. This false assertion can even be found in this thread as it is found in many other threads and other religious debate forums. This false dichotomy falsehood is a poor, corrupt defense of a false teaching.

No where ever in the Bible is obedience called a work of merit nor is a person's obedience to God, (as Noah obediently building an ark as commanded by God), called a work or merit thereby exposing the false "faith only dichotmy".

Case in point, the OP stated in post #1 that "Two religions of man go off the sword of the Lord into two extremes: the Jews religion of works of the law without faith, which is self-righteousness, and the Christians religion of faith alone without doing the law, which is no righteousness at all. Christ first rebuked the Jews' error of seeking righteousness as by the law only, beginning in Romans, and then rebuked the Christians' error of claiming righteousness as by faith alone, ending in James." Hence the OP is simply stating salvation is not by works without faith (Paul's point in Rom 3 and 4) nor is salvation by faith without works (James' point in James 2). The OP reiterates this point again in post #3. No where do I see in the first three posts that the OP even remotely alludes that salvation is earned by works of merit. Yet the very first response to the OP states that -- salvation is not based on the merits of our works -- when, again, the OP never asserted salvation was by merits of our works. A later post accused the OP of teaching salvation is by providing -- your own way, by self effort- - that is, one saves himself by his own works though that is not to be found in the OP either. Myself, Titus and others have never alluded salvation is by works of merit but are constantly, dishonestly accused of such in defense of the faith only heresy. When can the faith onlyists provide an honest debate??????
 
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Titus

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I already told you in post #22 that the name of the church I attend is Heartland church and its a non-denominational church and not a Baptist church. No silence on my part. Only slander on your part. Why are you so obsessed with the Baptist church anyway? My beliefs line up more with Baptist church doctrine than they do with Campbellite church doctrine.
Well I apologize for the overlook. Heartland from my search results shows they are Baptist.
I'm not obsessed with Baptist's. You are the one that constantly brings up Cambellites. So I could say the same about you. You obsessed with Campbell? Since you misrepresent me over and over as a follower of man, it is only right that it is pointed out that your religious beliefs did not come from the apostles doctrine but from John Smyth. You are the one following after doctrines of men Dad, not me.
You cannot trace your church back to the new testament.
Church of Christ is found as the church Paul was in, Romans 16:16.
Campbell never started a church. Your claim he did is more ignorance and a lack of concern for the truth on your part.
I've already shared with you long ago actual American history that proves Alexander Campbell is not the founder of the church of Christ in America. By you continuing to say he is makes you a liar.
Once it was ignorance on your part. Now that you have been taught your claim is not factual, you are now intentionally misleading folks.
I will give you once again actual recorded American history on the church of Christ being established in America before Campbell came to America. I doubt you will care about facts, instead continue to gladly spread misinformation.

The church of Christ existed before America.
In a cemetery next to the old Cane Ridge meeting house in Bourbon County Kentucky is the headstone of William Rodgers with this epitaph: BORN IN CAMPBELL CO VA, JULY 7, 1784, REMOVED WITH HIS FATHER TO CANE RIDGE BOURBON CO APR 1798. UNITED WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST AT CANE RIDGE IN 1807. DIED FEB. 15, 1862. IN THE 78 YEAR OF HIS AGE.

According to the book, The Eternal Kingdom, by F.W. Mattox 326, the Campbell family arrived in Washington, Pennsylvania, September 29, 1809.
This shows that Alexander Campbell did not start the church of Christ. For there were churches of Christ before Campbell.
The church of Christ began on the first penetcost following the ressurection of Christ from the dead.
Danthemailman, prove your church was not founded in America? Show your church in the new testament?
 

mailmandan

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Well I apologize for the overlook. Heartland from my search results shows they are Baptist.
Apology accepted.

I'm not obsessed with Baptist's. You are the one that constantly brings up Cambellites. So I could say the same about you. You obsessed with Campbell? Since you misrepresent me over and over as a follower of man, it is only right that it is pointed out that your religious beliefs did not come from the apostles doctrine but from John Smyth. You are the one following after doctrines of men Dad, not me.
It's you who is following after doctrines of men, namely, THOMAS CAMPBELL, ALEXANDER CAMPBELL, WALTER SCOTT, and BARTON W. STONE. Did these men actually "restore" the gospel, the church, and true New Testament worship, as they claim?
You cannot trace your church back to the new testament.
Campbellism, which goes by the name "church of Christ" was found much later than the 1st century and came out of the Restoration movement.
Church of Christ is found as the church Paul was in, Romans 16:16.
The Church of Christ that Paul was talking about in Romans 16:16, in which Paul also referred to it as the 'Church of God' elsewhere in Scripture is the body of Christ and not a church building with a name stamped on the front of it.
Campbell never started a church. Your claim he did is more ignorance and a lack of concern for the truth on your part.
He certainly did. You should read the book, "Campbellism, it's history and heresies." It would be an eye opener for you.
I've already shared with you long ago actual American history that proves Alexander Campbell is not the founder of the church of Christ in America. By you continuing to say he is makes you a liar.
I've read otherwise. So it's he said vs. they said. I could never believe a church that promotes a false gospel.

Once it was ignorance on your part. Now that you have been taught your claim is not factual, you are now intentionally misleading folks.
I will give you once again actual recorded American history on the church of Christ being established in America before Campbell came to America. I doubt you will care about facts, instead continue to gladly spread misinformation.

The church of Christ existed before America.
In a cemetery next to the old Cane Ridge meeting house in Bourbon County Kentucky is the headstone of William Rodgers with this epitaph: BORN IN CAMPBELL CO VA, JULY 7, 1784, REMOVED WITH HIS FATHER TO CANE RIDGE BOURBON CO APR 1798. UNITED WITH THE CHURCH OF CHRIST AT CANE RIDGE IN 1807. DIED FEB. 15, 1862. IN THE 78 YEAR OF HIS AGE.

According to the book, The Eternal Kingdom, by F.W. Mattox 326, the Campbell family arrived in Washington, Pennsylvania, September 29, 1809.
This shows that Alexander Campbell did not start the church of Christ. For there were churches of Christ before Campbell.
The church of Christ began on the first penetcost following the ressurection of Christ from the dead.
Danthemailman, prove your church was not founded in America? Show your church in the new testament?
I see that you bought into the sales pitch.




The modern day Campbellite church of Christ is not the Church of Christ from Romans 16:16 in the New Testament. The true Church is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24) which is made up of all born again believers and is not merely a church building with a name stamped on the front of it. Roman Catholics have their sales pitch as well about the origin of the Roman Catholic church and try very hard to deceive people into believing that ONLY it's the 'true Church.'
 

Titus

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Apology accepted.


It's you who is following after doctrines of men, namely, THOMAS CAMPBELL, ALEXANDER CAMPBELL, WALTER SCOTT, and BARTON W. STONE. Did these men actually "restore" the gospel, the church, and true New Testament worship, as they claim?

Campbellism, which goes by the name "church of Christ" was found much later than the 1st century and came out of the Restoration movement.

The Church of Christ that Paul was talking about in Romans 16:16, in which Paul also referred to it as the 'Church of God' elsewhere in Scripture is the body of Christ and not a church building with a name stamped on the front of it.

He certainly did. You should read the book, "Campbellism, it's history and heresies." It would be an eye opener for you.

I've read otherwise. So it's he said vs. they said. I could never believe a church that promotes a false gospel.


I see that you bought into the sales pitch.




The modern day Campbellite church of Christ is not the Church of Christ from Romans 16:16 in the New Testament. The true Church is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24) which is made up of all born again believers and is not merely a church building with a name stamped on the front of it. Roman Catholics have their sales pitch as well about the origin of the Roman Catholic church and try very hard to deceive people into believing that ONLY it's the 'true Church.'
I see that you bought into the sales pitch.
No historian would automatically trust one man who is pro denominations!!!!
Bob L. Ross followed calvinist doctrine. BIG TIME CONFLICT OF INTEREST!!!! But Danthemailman would not let a little thing like that stop him from using a biased source for his "evidence".
You have no credibility Danthemailman because a honest man would investigate if the head stone in bourbon Kentucky existed. Would investigate what year Alexander Campbell set foot on American soil.
What a dishonest close minded man with strong dislike and prejudice of another's church would do is gather any information that spoke against this church and without any heartfelt research into his sources claims, would quickly do a hit piece on supposed evidence against said church.
Alot like how a CNN reporter of propaganda operates.

Well this is where we differ.
I check to make sure my sources are credible men who are known to be trustworthy.

O, that Bob L. Ross btw, IS A BAPTIST PREACHER!!! Funny you claim not to be Baptist yet use a Baptist as you supposed source of credibility.

Speaking of Baptist's here are historical facts about this religion.
Did you know the history has no record of the Baptist before 1600?
That's not propaganda Dan. That's history.
I would be very sceptical of a man like Bob L. Ross that has endorsed and promotes a church that cannot be traced back to the new testament church.
I know Why Bob L. Ross is against the church of Christ. He is in a denomination that cannot prove where the Baptist church is in the Bible! Good luck using your witness in a court of law Dan.

There is only one church according to Jesus, Matthew 16:18-19.
That church has local churches,
Church at Rome, church at Corinth, church at Galatia, etc.
That is why Paul said,
Romans 16:16,
-Greet one another with a Holy kiss the churches of Christ salute you.

That is also the churches of God. Same church. No Baptist church in those local churches!

Heres proof there is only the Lords church and no other.

2Thessalonians 2:14,
-For you brethren became imitators of the church es of God.

1Corinthians 1:2,
-to the church(singular) of God which is at Corinth.
So
The singular of churches of Christ, is church of Christ.

One church in diferent local locations.
One church eliminates your church Danthemailman that cannot be traced back to the Bible.
 

robert derrick

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Wikipedia defines a false dilemma or a false dichotomy as:

"an informal fallacy based on a premise that erroneously limits what options are available. The source of the fallacy lies not in an invalid form of inference but in a false premise. This premise has the form of a disjunctive claim: it asserts that one among a number of alternatives must be true. This disjunction is problematic because it oversimplifies the choice by excluding viable alternatives, presenting the viewer with only two absolute choices when in fact, there could be many.

False dilemmas often have the form of treating two contraries, which may both be false, as contradictories, of which one is necessarily true
." (my emp)

A classic example of a false dilemma or false dichotomy is Luther's false notion of faith onlyism. In an attempt to "prove" faith onlyism as "true" they set up a false dischotomy, that being, salvation is by either by (1) faith only or by (2) works of merit. They purposely set up faith only against works of merit when they already know that the Bible says works of merit do not save. Since the Bible says works of merit do not save then that must "prove" faith only is what saves.

As Wikipedia's definition points out, the fallacy of this "faith only dichotomy" is based on the erroneous limits that salvation is either by (1) works of merit or (2) faith only as if there are no other options. In the case of the "faith only dichotomy" it has two contraries: (1) faith only (2) works of merit which both are false but the dichotomy asserts one must be true. It falsely asserts one of these two options must be true by excluding other viable options as OBEDIENCE TO GOD'S WILL.

Obedience is neither faith only nor is it a work of merit. Therefore in order to try and eliminate obedience to God's will as a viable option in being saved, faith onlyists try and and label obedience as a work of merit. Hence if one believes, as myself, that obedience saves, as the BIble clearly does teach (Heb 5:9; Rom 6:16-18; 2 Thess 1:8; Acts 2:38; John 3:16,36; etc), then I am falsely accused of believing in a "works" salvation, that I believe salvation is by a work of merit. This false assertion can even be found in this thread as it is found in many other threads and other religious debate forums. This false dichotomy falsehood is a poor, corrupt defense of a false teaching.

No where ever in the Bible is obedience called a work of merit nor is a person's obedience to God, (as Noah obediently building an ark as commanded by God), called a work or merit thereby exposing the false "faith only dichotmy".

Case in point, the OP stated in post #1 that "Two religions of man go off the sword of the Lord into two extremes: the Jews religion of works of the law without faith, which is self-righteousness, and the Christians religion of faith alone without doing the law, which is no righteousness at all. Christ first rebuked the Jews' error of seeking righteousness as by the law only, beginning in Romans, and then rebuked the Christians' error of claiming righteousness as by faith alone, ending in James." Hence the OP is simply stating salvation is not by works without faith (Paul's point in Rom 3 and 4) nor is salvation by faith without works (James' point in James 2). The OP reiterates this point again in post #3. No where do I see in the first three posts that the OP even remotely alludes that salvation is earned by works of merit. Yet the very first response to the OP states that -- salvation is not based on the merits of our works -- when, again, the OP never asserted salvation was by merits of our works. A later post accused the OP of teaching salvation is by providing -- your own way, by self effort- - that is, one saves himself by his own works though that is not to be found in the OP either. Myself, Titus and others have never alluded salvation is by works of merit but are constantly, dishonestly accused of such in defense of the faith only heresy. When can the faith onlyists provide an honest debate??????
True. I've only heard from one OSAS believer, that even acknowledges works with faith.

It's either faith alone or works alone for them.
 

mailmandan

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No historian would automatically trust one man who is pro denominations!!!!
Bob L. Ross followed calvinist doctrine. BIG TIME CONFLICT OF INTEREST!!!! But Danthemailman would not let a little thing like that stop him from using a biased source for his "evidence".
You have no credibility Danthemailman because a honest man would investigate if the head stone in bourbon Kentucky existed. Would investigate what year Alexander Campbell set foot on American soil.
What a dishonest close minded man with strong dislike and prejudice of another's church would do is gather any information that spoke against this church and without any heartfelt research into his sources claims, would quickly do a hit piece on supposed evidence against said church.
Alot like how a CNN reporter of propaganda operates.

Well this is where we differ.
I check to make sure my sources are credible men who are known to be trustworthy.

O, that Bob L. Ross btw, IS A BAPTIST PREACHER!!! Funny you claim not to be Baptist yet use a Baptist as you supposed source of credibility.

Speaking of Baptist's here are historical facts about this religion.
Did you know the history has no record of the Baptist before 1600?
That's not propaganda Dan. That's history.
I would be very sceptical of a man like Bob L. Ross that has endorsed and promotes a church that cannot be traced back to the new testament church.
I know Why Bob L. Ross is against the church of Christ. He is in a denomination that cannot prove where the Baptist church is in the Bible! Good luck using your witness in a court of law Dan.

There is only one church according to Jesus, Matthew 16:18-19.
That church has local churches,
Church at Rome, church at Corinth, church at Galatia, etc.
That is why Paul said,
Romans 16:16,
-Greet one another with a Holy kiss the churches of Christ salute you.

That is also the churches of God. Same church. No Baptist church in those local churches!

Heres proof there is only the Lords church and no other.

2Thessalonians 2:14,
-For you brethren became imitators of the church es of God.

1Corinthians 1:2,
-to the church(singular) of God which is at Corinth.
So
The singular of churches of Christ, is church of Christ.

One church in diferent local locations.
One church eliminates your church Danthemailman that cannot be traced back to the Bible.
LOL! Enjoy your kool aid.
 

mailmandan

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True. I've only heard from one OSAS believer, that even acknowledges works with faith.

It's either faith alone or works alone for them.
Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24)

*PERFECT HARMONY*
 
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Titus

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Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24)

*PERFECT HARMONY*
You do not understand these verses that you use as proof texts for salvation by faith alone and no obedience to Gods commandments.

Let's examine one, Titus 3:5 and see if Paul is teaching Titus that there are no works in salvation.

Titus 3:5,
-not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

Now faith onlyist's use this as a proof text for no works in salvation.
Paul said Titus 3:5.
Now listen to Paul teach on works of righteousness in Acts 10:35,
-But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

Paul cannot believe what Dan believes for Paul teaches no one is accepted by God who does not work righteousness.
So what is Paul really teaching in Titus 3:5?

To know you must read verse 4 and 5 together.
Titus 3:4-5
-But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
-not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us...

Paul is saying WHEN Jesus' love and mercy appeared.
Paul said Gods mercy DID NOT APPEAR WHEN WE DID A WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
But BEFORE we did works of righteousness.
So Paul is simply saying that Jesus chose to save us before we did good works i.e. when we had no faith in Jesus.

Here is the parallel verse that proves Jesus chose to save us before we believed or did good works,

1Timothy 1:9,
-who has saved us and called us with a Holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

That is the point Paul is making in Titus 3:5. Not what Dan is teaching i.e. works are not required by God to be saved.
But that Jesus chose to save us while we had no faith or works in Him.
God chose to save us Before time began!!!

Now we need to learn what works of righteousness is?
The fact that you must work, works of righteousness to be accepted by God according to Paul, Acts 10:35.
Then we must know what these kind of works are unless we want to believe a lie that no works are required by God to be accepted by Him.

The answer is found in Psalm 119:172,
-my tongue shall speak of Your word, for all your commandments are righteousness.

So, when we obey God by doing His commandments we are doing works of righteousness.

Titus 3:5 cannot be teaching we do not have to keep Gods commandments i.e. works of righteousness.
Because this false interpretation makes Paul contradict himself in Acts 10:35, where he said you must do works of righteousness to be accepted by God.

Faith and obedience to Jesus' gospel commandments is what saves us.
 

mailmandan

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You do not understand these verses that you use as proof texts for salvation by faith alone and no obedience to Gods commandments.
I understand those verses just fine and I also understand how Campbellites try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.

Let's examine one, Titus 3:5 and see if Paul is teaching Titus that there are no works in salvation.

Titus 3:5,
-not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
Paul is crystal clear here and "works of righteousness" are works done in righteousness. How many genuine works of righteousness (works done in righteousness) do non-Christians produce? 0 Works of righteousness cannot be produced from the unrighteous.

Now faith onlyist's use this as a proof text for no works in salvation.
Faith that trusts in Christ onlyist's per Paul (Romans 4:5-6) which is not to be confused with faith only per James. (James 2:14, 24)

Paul said Titus 3:5.
Now listen to Paul teach on works of righteousness in Acts 10:35,
-But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.
In regards to Acts 10:35, working righteousness is the result of an already established faith. (fruit of faith) We are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness are the fruit of salvation and not the means of salvation. You have this backwards. Those who work righteousness/produce good works do so as the result of already having been saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Paul cannot believe what Dan believes for Paul teaches no one is accepted by God who does not work righteousness.
So what is Paul really teaching in Titus 3:5?
Paul is giving us a 'description' of a saved believer (they work righteousness) and not a prerequisite to become saved. Works-salvationists commonly confuse "descriptive' passages of scripture with 'prescriptive' passages of scripture and the end result is always the same - "salvation by works/works righteousness."

To know you must read verse 4 and 5 together.
Titus 3:4-5
-But when the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
-not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us...
Mercy is not getting what we deserve. (Romans 3:23; 6:23)

Paul is saying WHEN Jesus' love and mercy appeared.
Paul said Gods mercy DID NOT APPEAR WHEN WE DID A WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
But BEFORE we did works of righteousness.
So Paul is simply saying that Jesus chose to save us before we did good works i.e. when we had no faith in Jesus.
Keep dancing to the song of predestination.

Here is the parallel verse that proves Jesus chose to save us before we believed or did good works,
More on predestination? Here is a lesson for you. Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them.

1Timothy 1:9,
-who has saved us and called us with a Holy calling, not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.
God is outside of time, is omniscient and knows who His elect are. (Romans 8:33)

That is the point Paul is making in Titus 3:5. Not what Dan is teaching i.e. works are not required by God to be saved.
But that Jesus chose to save us while we had no faith or works in Him.
God chose to save us Before time began!!!
Here is the $64,000 question. Jesus chose to save us BASED ON WHAT?

Now we need to learn what works of righteousness is?
They are works done in righteousness.

The fact that you must work, works of righteousness to be accepted by God according to Paul, Acts 10:35.
Then we must know what these kind of works are unless we want to believe a lie that no works are required by God to be accepted by Him.
Christians do not produce works of righteousness in order to become saved and accepted by God but BECAUSE they have been saved and accepted by God. Again, Paul is giving a description of Christians/believers (they work righteousness) and not a prerequisite for salvation in Acts 10:35.

The answer is found in Psalm 119:172,
-my tongue shall speak of Your word, for all your commandments are righteousness.
So, we must obey all of God's commandments first and only then will we become righteous before God? Is that what you are saying? Which commandments are you talking about? Psalm 119 is from the Old Testament. Are you a Jew under the law of Moses?

So, when we obey God by doing His commandments we are doing works of righteousness.
Obeying God's commands for NT Christians is doing works of righteousness, yet we are not saved by these works of righteousness, as Paul clearly stated in Titus 3:5.

Titus 3:5 cannot be teaching we do not have to keep Gods commandments i.e. works of righteousness.
It's not about don't "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) God's commandments/works of righteousness for NT Christians (1 John 2:3) after first becoming a Christian. It's about being saved FOR these good works and NOT BY these good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Works-salvationists always get this backwards.

Because this false interpretation makes Paul contradict himself in Acts 10:35, where he said you must do works of righteousness to be accepted by God.
It's your false interpretation of Acts 10:35 that makes Paul contradict himself in Romans 4:5-6 and in Titus 3:5. Paul says that it's not by works of righteousness which we have done that saves us, yet you say it is by works of righteousness which we have done that saves us. Should I believe Paul or you? I will go with Paul. Now Paul did not say must do works of righteousness in order to be accepted (prescriptive) but whoever fears him and works righteousness (descriptive of a Christian/believer who is already saved) is accepted by God.

Faith and obedience to Jesus' gospel commandments is what saves us.
You just admitted that you teach salvation by faith AND WORKS for everyone to see. Of course, I already knew this.
 
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L.A.M.B.

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Ignorance MUST be bliss !

No Ones church organization is mentioned in scriptures None!

When Jesus ascended and  HIS church began, it was known as THE WAY.
 
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robert derrick

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Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works.
I've learned this inherent error elsewhere.

The faith alone, that is not proven genuine by works, saves.

Only disingenuous faith can save. Not genuine faith with works.

Which is the opposite of Scripture, that declares only the genuine faith with works can save. Not the disingenuous faith alone without works.


(James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

James says faith alone without works, can save no man.

The rest of that fluffy stuff, is just lip-service to the genuine faith with works, that saves and justifies the faithful by Christ.


yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24)

*PERFECT HARMONY*
This truly is a fine example of the low art of sophistry.

OSAS says they are saved by faith alone, that is not genuine, because it is not proven with works.

And then says that faith that saves, has to be genuinely proven by works.

Genuine sophistry indeed.
 
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mailmandan

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I've learned this inherent error elsewhere.

The faith alone, that is not proven genuine by works, saves.

Only disingenuous faith can save. Not genuine faith with works.

Which is the opposite of Scripture, that declares only the genuine faith with works can save. Not the disingenuous faith alone without works.

James says faith alone without works, can save no man.

The rest of that fluffy stuff, is just lip-service to the genuine faith with works, that saves and justifies the faithful by Christ.

This truly is a fine example of the low art of sophistry.

OSAS says they are saved by faith alone, that is not genuine, because it is not proven with works.

And then says that faith that saves, has to be genuinely proven by works.

Genuine sophistry indeed.
Go back and re-read posts #14, #19, #20, #22, #23 and #49. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)
 
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L.A.M.B.

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This simple 4 letter word has started many a war, I'm sure of this.

Work is to be employed to support self and or family. Paul said if one DOES NOT WORK NEITHER SHOULD HE EAT!

God DOES NOT WANT LAZY DO NOTHINGS IN HIS KINGDOM !
We are here to SERVE our King of kings and Lord of lords ppl, nothing else. If you want SELF service go to
Wal-Mart.......lol.


We as Jesus said must be about our Father's business. Jesus gave us the commands, love God, love your neighbor, love one another and spread the GOSPEL! ......WORK!

Humanity teaches us to care. Jesus commanded us to do more than care. If one ask for your coat, give your cloak also; if one needs you to go one mile with him .....go two.

God's works are done by those whom SERVE HIM! . They are works of righteousness and MUST EXCEED that of the pious Pharisees.

It is not at our whim either, for when we pull away from the FIRE, WE GET COLD. Does any think there is nothing going on in heaven.....lol lol lol.

Heaven deals every nano second with all the prayers, tears, fears, pain, griefs, trials, tribulation and even the enemy is there accusing us daily.

I say " get off your dead horses and stop beating the corpse".
 

robert derrick

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Go back and re-read posts #14, #19, #20, #22, #23 and #49. Only the Lord can open your eyes to the truth. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14)
You're the one saying only disingenuous faith saves, while genuine faith proven by works, has nothing to do with being saved.

You go back and read. I don't need to.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Ignorance MUST be bliss !

No Ones church organization is mentioned in scriptures None!

When Jesus ascended and  HIS church began, it was known as THE WAY.
I'm not sure what you mean here.

If no church organization is mentioned at all in the NT, does that mean no church at all exists? But how can that be when the NT clearly speaks of a singular church, "one body" (Eph 4:4-5) of Christ, His kingdom that was existing and people were part of that body/church/kingdom? Col 1:13,18; Rev 1:9; 1 Cor 12:27; Eph 5:23;
 

mailmandan

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You're the one saying only disingenuous faith saves, while genuine faith proven by works, has nothing to do with being saved.

You go back and read. I don't need to.
Typical straw man argument and you did not comprehend what I said in my posts.