Two Extremes of Man's Religion: Works with Faith and Faith without Works

[robert derrick]

But Ehud made him a dagger which had two edges, of a cubit length; and he did gird it under his raiment upon his right thigh.

And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges.

This is dcotrine of Christ that cuts asunder those who walk off onto one edge or the other of the sword of the Spirit, and do not continue in the right way of truth as written in Scripture.

Two religions of man go off the sword of the Lord into two extremes: the Jews religion of works of the law without faith, which is self-righteousness, and the Christians religion of faith alone without doing the law, which is no righteousness at all.

Christ first rebuked the Jews' error of seeking righteousness as by the law only, beginning in Romans, and then rebuked the Christians' error of claiming righteousness as by faith alone, ending in James.

The right way of the Lord is to first begin with being saved and justified by faith in Jesus, and to continue being saved and justified by faith with works of the Spirit.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

Being grounded and settled in the faith is having substance and evidence of faith by works of faith, whereby we are preserved holy and blameless in spirit, soul, and body unto the end:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are saved and justified by grace through faith, and we continue saved and justified by grace through faith with works of the Spirit.

 

[robert derrick]

If we are sinning in spirit and soul and body, then we are not being saved and justified by Christ, but like any other sinner on earth, we can be drawn of His Spirit by grace, to repent and confess and be forgiven of past sinning and be restored to salvation and justification by Christ.

For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

This is the prayer of every soul that repents for Jesus' sake, whether sinner, saint, or king, and confess it as sin against God: This is the righteousness, salvation, and justification by faith.

And this is the Spirit we must continue in with a pure heart through faith, that we sin not, and fulfill the righteousness of the law in spirit and in the flesh by works of faith.

 

[robert derrick]

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Deeds of the law alone can justify no man, and faith without works can save no man.

 

[mailmandan]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-24) Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Robert Gwin]

But Ehud made him a dagger which had two edges, of a cubit length; and he did gird it under his raiment upon his right thigh.

And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges.

This is dcotrine of Christ that cuts asunder those who walk off onto one edge or the other of the sword of the Spirit, and do not continue in the right way of truth as written in Scripture.

Two religions of man go off the sword of the Lord into two extremes: the Jews religion of works of the law without faith, which is self-righteousness, and the Christians religion of faith alone without doing the law, which is no righteousness at all.

Christ first rebuked the Jews' error of seeking righteousness as by the law only, beginning in Romans, and then rebuked the Christians' error of claiming righteousness as by faith alone, ending in James.

The right way of the Lord is to first begin with being saved and justified by faith in Jesus, and to continue being saved and justified by faith with works of the Spirit.

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

Being grounded and settled in the faith is having substance and evidence of faith by works of faith, whereby we are preserved holy and blameless in spirit, soul, and body unto the end:

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are saved and justified by grace through faith, and we continue saved and justified by grace through faith with works of the Spirit.

Definitely agree Rob, faith and works are required for salvation, based on one's capabilities of course. But that faith and the works must be in line with God's will of course. One definitely cannot serve God in the way they desire and expect to receive salvation.

 

[robert derrick]

Nowhere does Scripture say that any man is saved by faith alone. Nor does any Scripture say that man is saved without works.

Scripture does say that men are saved through faith, and that faith cannot be alone without works.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Faith alone can save no man.

The Scripture also says that no man can be justified by Christ through faith alone, but only through faith with works.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The false salvation and justification of extremes, is by faith alone without works, or by works alone without faith.

Faith alone of for those agreeing with devils, that there is one true God. Works alone is for those agreeing with Pharisees, that there is righteousness by one's own works without God.

 

[robert derrick]

Definitely agree Rob, faith and works are required for salvation, based on one's capabilities of course. But that faith and the works must be in line with God's will of course. One definitely cannot serve God in the way they desire and expect to receive salvation.

One's own capabilities is by one's own power and will:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It's the extreme of living by one own works according to one's own faith and will.

The only faith and will that any man is born of God by, is that of the the faith and will of the Son Jesus Christ.

Pharisees reject being born of God, in order to try and please Him by their own strength of will and works.

Except we are doing His faith and will, it is impossible to be born of God and please Him.

 

[Robert Gwin]

One's own capabilities is by one's own power and will:

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It's the extreme of living by one own works according to one's own faith and will.

The only faith and will that any man is born of God by, is that of the the faith and will of the Son Jesus Christ.

Pharisees reject being born of God, in order to try and please Him by their own strength of will and works.

Except we are doing His faith and will, it is impossible to be born of God and please Him.

I can see that you are lumping all Christians into that category, and not familiar the the other sheep not of that fold Robert. There is no doubt that spirit begotten Christians are capable, but as we can discern by the parable of the talents, your responsibilities as a Christian vary by capability. I say that incapable people will be saved automatically, if you believe otherwise, please explain how God can be justified in His judgments?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Works with Faith and Faith without Works​

The "works with faith" are not just any kind of works but specifically obedience to God's will. Hence it is faith with obedience that justifies and faith apart from obdience to God that does not justify.

This is the difference between Paul and James when Paul said works do not justify and James says works do justify. They do not disagree for the works Paul spoke of was the perfect work of flawless law keeping required to be justified by the OT law and James was speaking about works of obedience in doing God's will. Therefore they do not contradict each other for they each were talking about different kind of works.

Yet when it came to being justified by obedience to God, Paul was in 100% agreement with James:

Rom 6:17-18 --------------- obey from the heart >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justified
James 2:24 ---------------- works (obedience cf v21) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> justifies

Some make the mistake of claiming all works are alike or trying to equate obedience to God a work of merit when they are two completely, totally different kinds of works.

 

[Behold]

Reader,

Salvation , Is God's.
He provided it by coming down here and dying on the Cross for all your sin.

And then this is the result.

2 Corinthians 5:19

If a heretic tells you that you need to do something so that you can go to heaven.....just ignore them, and trust in God as Christ on the Cross, as God offers nothing else to get you to heaven.
And remember, if you want to go to heaven = GOD has to provide the only WAY there. = John 14:6

So, when a heretic tells you that you have to provide your own way, by self effort.....
These.

1.) Water Baptism
2.) Enduring to the end of the Tribulation
3.) Communion // Sacraments
4.) trying to abide
5.) Keeping commandments and law
6.) Confessing sin
7.) living in a state of repentance

See those, Reader?
Those are the Salvation Plan of a devil led liar, .= a Grace rejecting Cross denying DECEIVER.....who will have you doing those to try to go to heaven.
So when you read or hear one of these DARK LIGHTS giving you their gospel(s) of water and works....be sure to remember who they are, as you have discovered a Cross Rejecting heretic.

 

[Titus]

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works.

This is a contradiction. Genuine faith has works. Then faith without works cannot be geniune faith.

yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine

Another contradiction. Faith alone cannot justify for it is barren, unfruitful. Faith is only genuine when it has works.

Also, To claim faith alone justifies goes directly against James,

yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone

James 2:24,
-You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Danthemailman's churches interpretation of James 2:24,
-You see that a man is justified by faith alone and not by works. (Perverted passage)

James only taught faith alone as dead. It cannot save anybody,
James 2:20,
-but do you want to know O, foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Danthemailman needs to learn this.

 

[Titus]

If a heretic tells you that you need to do something so that you can go to heaven.....just ignore them

Acts 16:30,
-And he brought them out and said Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 9:6,
-So he trembling and astonished said, Lord what do you want me to do?

Acts 2:37,
-Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?.

Acts 2:40,
-And with many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, save yourselves from this perverse generation.

 

[robert derrick]

I can see that you are lumping all Christians into that category, and not familiar the the other sheep not of that fold Robert. There is no doubt that spirit begotten Christians are capable, but as we can discern by the parable of the talents, your responsibilities as a Christian vary by capability. I say that incapable people will be saved automatically, if you believe otherwise, please explain how God can be justified in His judgments?

Other sheep are the Gentiles, not the unborn of God.

Nor a non-existent long extinct '10 tribes', that perished north of Assyria long ago.

 

[mailmandan]

This is a contradiction. Genuine faith has works. Then faith without works cannot be geniune faith.

Another contradiction. Faith alone cannot justify for it is barren, unfruitful. Faith is only genuine when it has works.

Also, To claim faith alone justifies goes directly against James,


James 2:24,
-You see then that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Danthemailman's churches interpretation of James 2:24,
-You see that a man is justified by faith alone and not by works. (Perverted passage)

James only taught faith alone as dead. It cannot save anybody,
James 2:20,
-but do you want to know O, foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Danthemailman needs to learn this.

No contradiction at all. You just don't understand because you teach salvation by faith AND works and cannot see beyond the veil. It takes a genuine, living faith to produce good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Something that is dead cannot produce anything. Faith DEMONSTRATES that it's genuine by producing works (hence, faith without works is dead) yet works are not the source of life in faith. The same could be said about a fruit tree. It takes a living tree to produce fruit (a dead tree cannot produce anything) yet the fruit is not the source of life for the tree. Life flows through the root and produces the fruit. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. Titus needs to learn this.

Danthemailman's interpretation of James 2:24 - You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - barren of works. (James 2:14)

Titus's churches interpretation of James 2:24,
You see that a man is justified/accounted as righteous/saved by works and not by faith alone. (Perverted passage)

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Read and learn.

I full understand that faith without works is dead (James 2:20) and there is nothing for me to learn, but you still have a lot to learn. In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!

 

[Robert Gwin]

Other sheep are the Gentiles, not the unborn of God.

Nor a non-existent long extinct '10 tribes', that perished north of Assyria long ago.

Many call them that Rob, which is ok, they are still Jesus' other sheep, and you are very correct they are not part of the Israel of God, who themselves are made up of people of all nations. It might help to understand them better if you look at the last passover, many times things in the Bible prefigure other things, those faithful 11 that Jesus made the covenant with were the start of the gathering of the little flock. The great crowd of God's other sheep that were celebrating the passover just as Jesus and his apostles were, prefigure those other sheep. Still God's people, but not part of that covenant arrangement, not of that fold. So although the little flock holds many titles, among them is the Israel of God Gal 6:16 so fittingly you refer to them as Jews, a title the Israelites came to be called, and the great crowd who are not those Jews can be referred to as Gentiles if you will. But no matter what name is applied to them, the truth is that both groups are made up from individuals of all nations.

 

[Titus]

No contradiction at all. You just don't understand because you teach salvation by faith AND works and cannot see beyond the veil. It takes a genuine, living faith to produce good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) Something that is dead cannot produce anything. Faith DEMONSTRATES that it's genuine by producing works (hence, faith without works is dead) yet works are not the source of life in faith. The same could be said about a fruit tree. It takes a living tree to produce fruit (a dead tree cannot produce anything) yet the fruit is not the source of life for the tree. Life flows through the root and produces the fruit. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. Titus needs to learn this.

Danthemailman's interpretation of James 2:24 - You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - barren of works. (James 2:14)

Titus's churches interpretation of James 2:24,
You see that a man is justified/accounted as righteous/saved by works and not by faith alone. (Perverted passage)

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: Read and learn.

I full understand that faith without works is dead (James 2:20) and there is nothing for me to learn, but you still have a lot to learn. In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That's like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James

Danthemailman once again says faith alone is a dead faith here,

Faith DEMONSTRATES that it's genuine by producing works (hence, faith without works is dead)

Danthemailman, you had no works when you say your faith saved you. You admit that is a dead faith.

Notice here Danthemailman, that you are again admitting that faith alone is not (shown to be righteous) here,

Danthemailman's interpretation of James 2:24 - You see that a man is justified (shown to be righteous) by works and not by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone

By your own admission you were saved without any works, faith only, so your "saving faith" does not show that you were justified when you claim you were saved. You had to show your faith alone was justified after you were saved by doing works.

Mistakes in Danthemailman's baptist interpretation of faith and works by James:

1) Dan, admits over and over that faith is not shown to be genuine if it never produces works.
Dan, then claims he was saved by faith that had no evidence it was genuine because it had no works.
Only after he was saved by his workless faith did it prove it was genuine by Dan doing works.

Dan, James says that you are saved by a faith that proves it is genuine BEFORE not AFTER you are saved.

Empty your mind of you Baptist teaching and just read what James says,
James 2:21,
-Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar
-do you see that faith was working together with his works and by works faith was made perfect

James is teaching Abraham was justified when his faith was made perfect(complete) by his works.
Abraham's faith alone was not perfect. His faith was perfect when it had works.

Abraham's faith alone could not show him to be justified.
Abraham's faith alone could not show him to be righteous.
Abraham's faith alone could not show his faith to be geniune.
Abraham's faith alone could not prove his faith was not dead.

The only way according to James that Abraham's faith had evidence that it was true Bible believing, trusting faith was by his OBEDIENT WORKS.

So, Abraham's faith was a faith that worked Gods commandments i.e. obedient faith! Never alone i.e. dead faith.

By obedient faith Abraham shows he is justified.
By obedient faith Abraham shows he is made righteous.
By obedient faith Abraham shows he has genuine faith.
By obedient(works) faith Abraham proves his faith is not dead.

Danthemailman's faith alone proved nothing when he was supposedly saved by faith without works.
Danthemailman had to do works after he was supposedly saved by faith alone to prove his faith was not dead.

True Biblical faith that saves proves it is genuine, living, obedient, BEFORE God chooses to save us.
God already knows by our actions of obedient works, that our faith is not dead, so he saves those with a faith that works obedience to Gods commandments. Just as Abraham's faith did.

Abraham was never justified, accounted righteous by faith absent of good works.
James is quoting Genesis 15:6 -And Abraham believed in the Lord and God accounted it to him for righteousness.
Abraham's faith had BEFORE this proclamation done works of obedience.
Go back to Genesis 12:1,
-now the Lord had said to Abram: Go out of your country, from your family, leave your fathers house.
Genesis 12:4,
-So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him

Abraham OBEYED God by doing the work God gave him.
This work proved His faith was not dead.
This faith with works is what justified Abraham i.e. God imputed righteousness to him.

James 2:24,
-You see then that a man is justified by works(obedience) and not by faith alone.

 

[robert derrick]

I like your plainspoken teaching. You don't flower up your speech, to hide the fact that it's mostly imagination masquerading for doctrine of Christ.

And so you make clear points, that I had not considered yet. Thanks.

Acts 16:30,
-And he brought them out and said Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 9:6,
-So he trembling and astonished said, Lord what do you want me to do?

Acts 2:37,
-Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?.

Acts 2:40,
-And with many other words he testified and exhorted them saying, save yourselves from this perverse generation.

Excellent. Being saved by doing nothing is the definition of being justified by dead faith alone, without doing anything by faith.

It's the do nothing gospel for hearers only.

The hear the knock and call, but do nothing to open the door and be saved.

Danthemailman, you had no works when you say your faith saved you. You admit that is a dead faith.

Saying they are saved by faith alone, is saying they have faith without works.

It's the hearers only gospel of them that say they are saved only.

By your own admission you were saved without any works, faith only, so your "saving faith" does not show that you were justified when you claim you were saved. You had to show your faith alone was justified after you were saved by doing works.

You give an interesting exercise in sensible logic:

They claim their faith alone saves and justifies them, without any works to show for it.

And then they claim there must be works shown, to prove they have faith to be saved and justified.

I believe this is the 'preservation' doctrine of faith alone: the soul is being preserved in salvation and justification by faith alone, until they get around to showing it.

1) Dan, admits over and over that faith is not shown to be genuine if it never produces works.

But since there is no definite time attached, then there is no never.

And since faith alone is already preserving the soul in salvation and justification at any time, then there is no time needing to prove it with works.

All works of faith showing or proving anything, is lip service. OSAS teaching is that faith alone preserves the soul, and never has anything to do with works, that may or may not come.

Dan, then claims he was saved by faith that had no evidence it was genuine because it had no works.
Only after he was saved by his workless faith did it prove it was genuine by Dan doing works.

Absolutely. They give lip service to showing 'genuine' faith by works, while claiming salvation and justification by disingenuous faith without works.

The fact they even speak of genuine faith attached to works, shows they agree with James, who makes difference between genuine faith with works, and dead disingenuous faith alone.

But they disagree with James attaching only genuine faith to salvation and justification.

They know there is a genuine faith with works, and a disingenuous faith without works, and say the disingenuous faith saves and jsutifies, while the genuine faith of works has nothing to do with it.

OSAS says they are saved and justified by disingenuous faith alone.

The agree James is right about the difference between genuine and disingenuous faith, but call him a liar, when he says salvation and justification are only by the genuine faith with works.

Danthemailman's faith alone proved nothing when he was supposedly saved by faith without works.
Danthemailman had to do works after he was supposedly saved by faith alone to prove his faith was not dead.

Yes he did. Because he said so.

Faith alone is what one believes and says so.

Which is exactly what they teach as being dead and disingenuous, as those who only say they have faith.

And yet, that is the faith they say saves them.

They not only say they faith alone, but also say they are saved by it.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

No.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

By obedient faith Abraham shows he is made righteous.

If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

The righteous are only those doing it.

Once again, they claim an imputed righteousness only that saves and justifies by faith alone, without being righteous by doing it.

Their salvation and justification and righteousness is all by faith alone, without actually being and doing it.

The claim a disingenuous faith that is not genuine, and an imputed righteousness that is not righteous.

True Biblical faith that saves proves it is genuine, living, obedient, BEFORE God chooses to save us.
God already knows by our actions of obedient works, that our faith is not dead, so he saves those with a faith that works obedience to Gods commandments. Just as Abraham's faith did.

Now this is perfect. You are rightly showing how called and chosen, is the same as hearing and saved.

Many are called and so many hear, and the faith is sown in their hearts: they now are the many that have seed of faith alone.

They are not the few that are chosen and saved by faith producing works from the heart.

The hearers are all called, but only the doers are chosen to be saved.

Faith alone by hearing of the word only, is not being chosen and saved by doing the word.

There are many that hear the gospel call and immediately have the word of faith alone sown in the hearts, but only the few are chosen to be saved by doing the word.

Excellent point. Thanks much.

The faith alone gospel declares the many called hearers, are all chosen and saved.

And only a few of them are actually doers of the word.

Another contradiction. Faith alone cannot justify for it is barren, unfruitful. Faith is only genuine when it has works.

Absolutely again:

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

Being fruitful is by doing the word, and not by faith alone which is blind.

Faith alone by hearing only, separates salvation from genuine faith, justification from works, and being chosen from bearing fruit by doing the word.

 

[Titus]

I like your plainspoken teaching. You don't flower up your speech, to hide the fact that it's mostly imagination masquerading for doctrine of Christ.

And so you make clear points, that I had not considered yet. Thanks.



Excellent. Being saved by doing nothing is the definition of being justified by dead faith alone, without doing anything by faith.

It's the do nothing gospel for hearers only.

The hear the knock and call, but do nothing to open the door and be saved.


Saying they are saved by faith alone, is saying they have faith without works.

It's the hearers only gospel of them that say they are saved only.



You give an interesting exercise in sensible logic:

They claim their faith alone saves and justifies them, without any works to show for it.

And then they claim there must be works shown, to prove they have faith to be saved and justified.

I believe this is the 'preservation' doctrine of faith alone: the soul is being preserved in salvation and justification by faith alone, until they get around to showing it.




But since there is no definite time attached, then there is no never.

And since faith alone is already preserving the soul in salvation and justification at any time, then there is no time needing to prove it with works.

All works of faith showing or proving anything, is lip service. OSAS teaching is that faith alone preserves the soul, and never has anything to do with works, that may or may not come.



Absolutely. They give lip service to showing 'genuine' faith by works, while claiming salvation and justification by disingenuous faith without works.

The fact they even speak of genuine faith attached to works, shows they agree with James, who makes difference between genuine faith with works, and dead disingenuous faith alone.

But they disagree with James attaching only genuine faith to salvation and justification.

They know there is a genuine faith with works, and a disingenuous faith without works, and say the disingenuous faith saves and jsutifies, while the genuine faith of works has nothing to do with it.

OSAS says they are saved and justified by disingenuous faith alone.

The agree James is right about the difference between genuine and disingenuous faith, but call him a liar, when he says salvation and justification are only by the genuine faith with works.




Yes he did. Because he said so.

Faith alone is what one believes and says so.

Which is exactly what they teach as being dead and disingenuous, as those who only say they have faith.

And yet, that is the faith they say saves them.

They not only say they faith alone, but also say they are saved by it.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

No.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.





If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

The righteous are only those doing it.

Once again, they claim an imputed righteousness only that saves and justifies by faith alone, without being righteous by doing it.

Their salvation and justification and righteousness is all by faith alone, without actually being and doing it.

The claim a disingenuous faith that is not genuine, and an imputed righteousness that is not righteous.




Now this is perfect. You are rightly showing how called and chosen, is the same as hearing and saved.

Many are called and so many hear, and the faith is sown in their hearts: they now are the many that have seed of faith alone.

They are not the few that are chosen and saved by faith producing works from the heart.

The hearers are all called, but only the doers are chosen to be saved.

Faith alone by hearing of the word only, is not being chosen and saved by doing the word.

There are many that hear the gospel call and immediately have the word of faith alone sown in the hearts, but only the few are chosen to be saved by doing the word.

Excellent point. Thanks much.

The faith alone gospel declares the many called hearers, are all chosen and saved.

And only a few of them are actually doers of the word.



Absolutely again:

And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

Being fruitful is by doing the word, and not by faith alone which is blind.

Faith alone by hearing only, separates salvation from genuine faith, justification from works, and being chosen from bearing fruit by doing the word.

Thanks, plainspoken is all I know, so that's all you get.

 

[mailmandan]

Danthemailman once again says faith alone is a dead faith here,

Danthemailman, you had no works when you say your faith saved you. You admit that is a dead faith.

Notice here Danthemailman, that you are again admitting that faith alone is not (shown to be righteous) here,

By your own admission you were saved without any works, faith only, so your "saving faith" does not show that you were justified when you claim you were saved. You had to show your faith alone was justified after you were saved by doing works.

Faith that remains alone (barren of works) demonstrates that it's a dead faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

My faith was alive in Christ when it saved me because I placed my faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:5-9; Romans 4:5-6) Your faith is obviously in works and not in Christ alone. Huge difference between us! My faith also did not remain alone (barren of works) which demonstrates that I don't have a dead faith. (James 2:14-18)

We are justified (accounted as righteous) by faith and not by works (Romans 4:2-6) and we are justified (shown to be righteous) by works. (James 2:18-24) Plain and simple.

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Mistakes in Danthemailman's baptist interpretation of faith and works by James:

LOL! Who said I was a Baptist? Campbellites love to attack Baptists, yet it's the Baptists who have this right.

1) Dan, admits over and over that faith is not shown to be genuine if it never produces works.
Dan, then claims he was saved by faith that had no evidence it was genuine because it had no works.
Only after he was saved by his workless faith did it prove it was genuine by Dan doing works.

Straw man argument. I never said that genuine faith never produces works etc.. Your slander is not appreciated.

Dan, James says that you are saved by a faith that proves it is genuine BEFORE not AFTER you are saved.

As I already previously explained, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is evidenced by works (James 2:14-24). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

Empty your mind of you Baptist teaching and just read what James says,
James 2:21,
-Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar
-do you see that faith was working together with his works and by works faith was made perfect

LOL! More Baptist attacks and I'm not even a Baptist. I attend a non-denominational church. You need to empty your mind of your Campbellism eisegesis and properly harmonize scripture with scripture (Romans 4:2-6; James 2:14-24) before reaching your conclusion on doctrine.

James is teaching Abraham was justified when his faith was made perfect (complete) by his works.
Abraham's faith alone was not perfect. His faith was perfect when it had works.

More Campbellism eisegesis and Roman Catholics would agree with your misinterpretation here. In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Abraham's faith alone could not show him to be justified.
Abraham's faith alone could not show him to be righteous.
Abraham's faith alone could not show his faith to be geniune.
Abraham's faith alone could not prove his faith was not dead.

It was still Abraham's faith alone that accounted him as righteous before God. Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness. *Crystal clear.

The only way according to James that Abraham's faith had evidence that it was true Bible believing, trusting faith was by his OBEDIENT WORKS.

Works are the evidence of faith, but not the basis or means by which we are accounted as righteous. Faith is the root of salvation and obedient works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root.

So, Abraham's faith was a faith that worked Gods commandments i.e. obedient faith! Never alone i.e. dead faith.

Although Abraham's faith did not remain alone (barren of works) it was still his faith in God alone and not his works that accounted him as righteous before God. (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3) It doesn't sound like you will ever figure this out and there is a reason for that.

By obedient faith Abraham shows he is justified.
By obedient faith Abraham shows he is made righteous.
By obedient faith Abraham shows he has genuine faith.
By obedient (works) faith Abraham proves his faith is not dead.

By obedient works Abraham was shown to be righteous (James 2:21, 24) after being accounted as righteous by faith. (Romans 4:2-3)

Danthemailman's faith alone proved nothing when he was supposedly saved by faith without works.
Danthemailman had to do works after he was supposedly saved by faith alone to prove his faith was not dead.

CONTINUED...

 

[mailmandan]

Danthemailman's faith which trusted in Christ alone for salvation (apart from works) is what saved Danthemailman. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) God imputes righteousness apart from works. Believers are shown to be righteous by good works which follow. (James 2:14-24)

True Biblical faith that saves proves it is genuine, living, obedient, BEFORE God chooses to save us.

False. (Romans 4:2-6). Good works "follow" salvation and do not precede it. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

God already knows by our actions of obedient works, that our faith is not dead, so he saves those with a faith that works obedience to Gods commandments. Just as Abraham's faith did.

You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

Abraham was never justified, accounted righteous by faith absent of good works.

Was Abraham's faith accounted to him for righteousness before or after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22? Hint. Go back and read Genesis 15:6.

James is quoting Genesis 15:6 -And Abraham believed in the Lord and God accounted it to him for righteousness.
Abraham's faith had BEFORE this proclamation done works of obedience.
Go back to Genesis 12:1,
-now the Lord had said to Abram: Go out of your country, from your family, leave your fathers house.
Genesis 12:4,
-So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him

Where in Genesis 12 does it say that Abraham left his country, his family and his father's house and God accounted it to him for righteousness? You are getting ahead of yourself. Abraham may have departed from his country, family and father's house in Genesis 12, but it wasn't until Genesis 15:5-6 in which God told Abraham to look toward heaven, and count the stars if he is able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Abraham OBEYED God by doing the work God gave him.
This work proved His faith was not dead.
This faith with works is what justified Abraham i.e. God imputed righteousness to him.

That's your Campbellism eisegesis, but that's not what scripture says. Don't forget that I at one time had temporarily attended the so called church of Christ several years ago so I understand how they try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. None of your arguments are anything new or enlightening.

Once again, Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. Period. You need to stop fighting against the truth.

James 2:24,
-You see then that a man is justified by works (obedience) and not by faith alone.

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."