Two forces collide: Marxism begins to unravel

[lawrance]

aspen. delusions of Como's being nice friendly helpful people, all looking after your best interest at heart and o yes they believe it can be done with out Christ .
Or may be i should disregard history and the truth and live in a dream world -_- .
Do you believe wars etc are just the result of Gods will :mellow: .
I think we had a healthy democracy once, but now ? just look at all the stupid laws they are making up. like Churchill said if you have 10000 regulations you destroy all respect for the law.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

 

[aspen]

aspen. delusions of Como's being nice friendly helpful people, all looking after your best interest at heart and o yes they believe it can be done with out Christ .
Or may be i should disregard history and the truth and live in a dream world -_- .
Do you believe wars etc are just the result of Gods will :mellow: .
I think we had a healthy democracy once, but now ? just look at all the stupid laws they are making up. like Churchill said if you have 10000 regulations you destroy all respect for the law.
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, it's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

I believe that all attempts at communism at the government level, throughout history have been thinly disguised depots. They all ended up bringing evil and misery upon their people. However, I also believe that communism has been the catch all, demonized scapegoat for all Americans raised during the Cold War. Paranoia is not going to stop the bogeyman or communism from taking over America - improving our education is the best way to preserve our democracy. Christian fundamentalism needs to find a new enemy.

The crazy part is that Christian Fundamentalism, which was a reaction against atheism, needs a real world enemy - atheism and communism are really modernist enemies and no longer as frightening as they once were. New enemies must be found - environmentalism is a good candidate; perhaps terrorism will gel together as a more organised threat.

 

[veteran]

I believe that all attempts at communism at the government level, throughout history have been thinly disguised depots. They all ended up bringing evil and misery upon their people. However, I also believe that communism has been the catch all, demonized scapegoat for all Americans raised during the Cold War. Paranoia is not going to stop the bogeyman or communism from taking over America - improving our education is the best way to preserve our democracy. Christian fundamentalism needs to find a new enemy.

The crazy part is that Christian Fundamentalism, which was a reaction against atheism, needs a real world enemy - atheism and communism are really modernist enemies and no longer as frightening as they once were. New enemies must be found - environmentalism is a good candidate; perhaps terrorism will gel together as a more organised threat.

Warnings against Communist theory and practice isn't about paranoia. It's about concerns involving real enemies against the United States of America and all freedom-loving peoples everywhere, including those who have had to live under Communist regimes.

And as for the lie that Communism is no longer the threat that it has been in the past, try telling that to Christians living in countries under Communist rule like Red China, Russia, North Korea, Vietnam, etc.

 

[aspen]

Warnings against Communist theory and practice isn't about paranoia. It's about concerns involving real enemies against the United States of America and all freedom-loving peoples everywhere, including those who have had to live under Communist regimes.

And as for the lie that Communism is no longer the threat that it has been in the past, try telling that to Christians living in countries under Communist rule like Red China, Russia, North Korea, Vietnam, etc.

Really? So Christ, who was living under a far worse government than modern despotism masquerading as communism, was concerned about fighting governmental injustice? And 'red' China? How much more protection of business does 'red' china have to allow before they are declared a Fascist regime?

14 defining characteristics of fascism:

[size="+1"]Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:[/size] [size="+1"]1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.[/size] [size="+1"]2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.[/size] [size="+1"]3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.[/size] [size="+1"]4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread[/size] [size="+1"]domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.[/size] [size="+1"]5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.[/size] [size="+1"]6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.[/size] [size="+1"]7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.[/size] [size="+1"]8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.[/size] [size="+1"]9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.[/size] [size="+1"]10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.[/size] [size="+1"]11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.[/size] [size="+1"]12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.[/size] [size="+1"]13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.[/size] [size="+1"]14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.[/size]

 

[veteran]

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Something the Communist countries especially... do, with the addition of posting giant posters of its Communist Party leaders up in the sky. And for one who doesn't like state policy under Communism, they are subject to being thrown in prison simply for refusing to agree with the state's propaganda; some even executed. Such is the real history of Communist Socialism, not just Mussolini's Facism which is from Socialism also, just as Hitler's version was too based on Hegel's social philosophy.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Oh, Communist countries would never... violate the rights of its citizens, and always abide by the Geneva Convention when going to war; nope, I'm being sarcastic. Some of the greatest atrocities of history upon a nation's own citizens was under Communist-Socialist regimes. Mussolini, Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi-Min, Pol-pot, etc., all in the same boat. Human wave tactics are a favorite strategy used in war by Communist countries like the USSR, Red China, Vietnam, North Korea, etc. They like to sacrifice their soliders and citizens as if they were common house flies, for after all to them, "the end justifies the means". (Remember?

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

That's actually an old thing of history among ancient nations. But Communist nations PERFECTED it, fabricating false propaganda against 'individuals', parading them in front of the people as being already guilty prior to trial, and giving them fake trials in order to execute them. Stalin had many of his own party members executed simply because they were becoming too powerful and knew too much. And a whole... lot of those victims were Christians they could not re-educate to give up their Faith.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

That's a major reality among Communist regimes. The people starve in order to keep building up the military machine.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

Another facet of Communism, even forcing pregnant mothers to get an abortion or be on birth control because the state determines how many children they can have.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

And what, the Communist countries don't control their news media outlets to the hilt? They're operated by the Party state itself, not the people.

The rest is right in line with Communist-Socialist countries, not just Facism. Maybe that's why Hitler and Stalin could become friends at the start of WWII and agree to divide Poland up among themselves? Hmmm....

 

[aspen]

'communist regime' should be an oxymoron. You are fearing despotic tyranny masquerading as communism.

 

[lawrance]

I think that people like aspen don't like capitalism and think it's evil. no offence aspen.
But i come across people hear is aus they are called Labor voters they are mainly to the left wing side.
Most of this lot are mainly wage earning people working for big companies they have no interest other than drinking beer and their footy team. they are slackers who are not interested about anyone but their selfish narrow short sighted point of views.
I have asked them about the state of the nation and the reply is like, who cares we are such a rich nation it does not matter at all. they are jealous of anyone wealthier then they, seeing it as a evil. not fair koala bear.
If the whole nation was dragged down to a 3 rd world they have said to me time and time again, they could not care less as long as every one is in the same boat. and if your not in their boat that's deemed evil to them. everyone has to conform to the same day dream or your the enemy.
I could not believe people could be so stupid and i don't understand it.
And they believe everything some fat idiot union idiot says.
If you worked for your money, have a nice car or house they don't like to hear it, but if you said i won it in a chook raffle then they are happy as for you.
A old mate came to see me and said he was abused by one of is employees for buying a nice 7 year old car the kid was so angry about it, i said i have had the same said to me. i said to the clowns if i smoked and was taking drugs, and drinking like a fish i would not have jack, ya stupid idiots, life is not a roulette wheel.
Is this what happens when people have no hope and start to believe rubbish like the Jews will save you, their gods people, you can't be one, your just a goyim. god is coming back with a magic wand to fix it all for you, as you need do noting at all.

 

[aspen]

I think that people like aspen don't like capitalism and think it's evil. no offence aspen.
But i come across people hear is aus they are called Labor voters they are mainly to the left wing side.
Most of this lot are mainly wage earning people working for big companies they have no interest other than drinking beer and their footy team. they are slackers who are not interested about anyone but their selfish narrow short sighted point of views.
I have asked them about the state of the nation and the reply is like, who cares we are such a rich nation it does not matter at all. they are jealous of anyone wealthier then they, seeing it as a evil. not fair koala bear.
If the whole nation was dragged down to a 3 rd world they have said to me time and time again, they could not care less as long as every one is in the same boat. and if your not in their boat that's deemed evil to them. everyone has to conform to the same day dream or your the enemy.
I could not believe people could be so stupid and i don't understand it.
And they believe everything some fat idiot union idiot says.
If you worked for your money, have a nice car or house they don't like to hear it, but if you said i won it in a chook raffle then they are happy as for you.
A old mate came to see me and said he was abused by one of is employees for buying a nice 7 year old car the kid was so angry about it, i said i have had the same said to me. i said to the clowns if i smoked and was taking drugs, and drinking like a fish i would not have jack, ya stupid idiots, life is not a roulette wheel.
Is this what happens when people have no hope and start to believe rubbish like the Jews will save you, their gods people, you can't be one, your just a goyim. god is coming back with a magic wand to fix it all for you, as you need do noting at all.

Yeah, I can see your point - I have been critical of Capitalism; and at times, unfairly mixed it up with consumerism. What I actually believe is that Capitalism has a downside - just like all other forms of governments. I get frustrated when I see people equating Christianity with Democracy and Capitalism; and Communism and Socialism with Satanism. It just isn't that simple! All governments are man-made institutions and flawed. Furthermore, it is a mute issue because Jesus teaches us that we can grow in our sanctification no matter what government/economic system we live under. We do not need to rely on Capitalism or Democracy in order to live a Christian life.

So, all I am trying to do is to take Capitalism off the pedestal that we have placed in on. I should also tell you that I have clearly stated that Communism is an impossible ideal (as a government) for humans to achieve on Earth - it will always devolve into Despotism ( USSR, China) or hedonism (hippy movements) without Christ. The only place that Communism has worked is in a monastery. Extreme Socialism is also impossible without dependency on a Capitalist nation (Europe's economic reliance on the US). Therefore, as an economic system, Capitalism is preferred. I am not a communist or an extreme socialist.

So, I appreciate your post MR - you had some good things to say.

 

[veteran]

Yeah, I can see your point - I have been critical of Capitalism; and at times, unfairly mixed it up with consumerism. What I actually believe is that Capitalism has a downside - just like all other forms of governments. I get frustrated when I see people equating Christianity with Democracy and Capitalism; and Communism and Socialism with Satanism. It just isn't that simple! All governments are man-made institutions and flawed. Furthermore, it is a mute issue because Jesus teaches us that we can grow in our sanctification no matter what government/economic system we live under. We do not need to rely on Capitalism or Democracy in order to live a Christian life.

So, all I am trying to do is to take Capitalism off the pedestal that we have placed in on. I should also tell you that I have clearly stated that Communism is an impossible ideal (as a government) for humans to achieve on Earth - it will always devolve into Despotism ( USSR, China) or hedonism (hippy movements) without Christ. The only place that Communism has worked is in a monastery. Extreme Socialism is also impossible without dependency on a Capitalist nation (Europe's economic reliance on the US). Therefore, as an economic system, Capitalism is preferred. I am not a communist or an extreme socialist.

So, I appreciate your post MR - you had some good things to say.

But the reality is that Communism is... equal to Satanism, because those have been some of the main enemies of Christ's Church since the beginning of Communist states like Leninist Russia. During Stalin's days he closed down the churches in Russia, and used them for storing grain. Christians in Communist states have had to meet in secret and if caught suffer torture, imprisonment, or execution in Communist states, just for being a Christian. So no wonder Communism likes to help radical Islam so much, because the radicals of Islam have done the same things to Christians.

And in today's time, most of the free world has gone under the yoke of Socialism, which is the new name for Communism since the Communists allowed the Berlin Wall to come down in order to keep their disinformation strategy against the west going for its final 3rd phase, which we're now in. That 3rd and final phase per Golitsyn is to create a one-world Socialist state over all nations. And that's why we see so many western leaders pushing Socialism today, and why even the U.S. now has a Socialist for a President. Even per the Catholic author Malachi Martin in his book The Jesuits: the Society of Jesus and The Betrayl of The Roman Catholic Church, he remarked how one pope in history visited Jesuits in Latin America and said, "So, you're not all Marxists." He revealed how the Jesuit order accepted Communism in the 1960's, and had their hands in fomenting several of the revolutions in Latin America.

When our Lord Jesus in Mark 13 gave one of the signs of the end being about the delivering up of many of His elect to councils and synagogues, that kind of working is exactly... what Communist-Socialist countries have practiced throughout their history.

 

[aspen]

haha - a 'mute' (moot) issue - must have been tired

Surprised my post didn't pass 'mustard' - lol

Malachi Martin! Haha - what a sensationalist! You may as well quote Dan Brown!

Com'mon Veteran! When are you going to acknowledge that Communism has never been tried as a government? You continue to paint dictators as communists - so you really believe their rhetoric? You may as well call Joel Osteen a pastor!

My world is not black and white OR conspiracy-filled so it is difficult for me to follow a lot of your posts. I refuse to live my life afraid or paranoid of 'forces' and 'secret societies'. Too busy practicing my sanctification.

 

[veteran]

haha - a 'mute' (moot) issue - must have been tired

Surprised my post didn't pass 'mustard' - lol

Malachi Martin! Haha - what a sensationalist! You may as well quote Dan Brown!

Com'mon Veteran! When are you going to acknowledge that Communism has never been tried as a government? You continue to paint dictators as communists - so you really believe their rhetoric? You may as well call Joel Osteen a pastor!

My world is not black and white OR conspiracy-filled so it is difficult for me to follow a lot of your posts. I refuse to live my life afraid or paranoid of 'forces' and 'secret societies'. Too busy practicing my sanctification.

So then, you are... a Marxist?!?

 

[aspen]

So then, you are... a Marxist?!?

Oh brother,

Slow down John Birch.......

I just spent the last post telling you that governments have nothing to do with our salvation. I will do the best I can to make sure a dictator stays out of office, but my main concern is with the care of people.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

I got rid of TV about 2 years ago - it is such a relief to not have all the manufactured fear in my head from all the garbage emanating from that screen.

No kidding! I still have TV, but, I get my news and information from other sources. This is one reason why I'm glad I grew up in counterculture. I don't like the media, I don't trust the media, and I won't be controlled by the media.

 

[[email protected]]

What would Conservative Christianity be without the political paranoia! HAHA

"If you take the lies out of politics, you have no politics."
- Will Rogers

Some things never change, except for American politics and religion. The two were once disparate disciplines. Today they are so nearly alike that some critics believe denominational churches in America are little more than government sponsored corporations.

Those who seek truth are leaving the church like leaves in the autumn. The same is true almost everywhere; western Europe, Australia, S.A., Central America, the Middle East and Japan. No one really knows what's going on in China, but its a pretty good guess that it isn't pretty.

Ok, so I grew up in the 60's. I remember church leaders preaching against American militarism, against the unjust use of corporate influence over the working man, against oppression of minorities. I remember it, I heard it and I saw it. Does anybody hear or see such things today in church or from the church? Anybody?

The church today has no political paranoia. In fact it doesn't appear to have anything remotely resembling an agenda of any sort. It does have a few really charismatic people who use their notoriety to start building projects or to siphon off the profits for themselves. Political paranoia? Not so much.

For me the closest approach to something similar was July 4th weekend at First Baptist Church in Atlanta last year. You know, Charles Stanley's church? The TV guy? The whole worship service was more militaristic than the July 4th celebrations at West Point I attended a few years earlier. I'm not kidding either. Anyway, Stanley was pitching his new book - another warning about how the country MAY slide into dangerous waters.

I have a news flash for you Dr. Stanley, we're there. We're past 'getting there'. We've arrived, Chuck. The waters are getting deeper every day.

Have you ever visited First Baptist or Atlanta? Parts of that town are booming, like Alpharetta and Buckhead. Don't go into the other parts, though. Visit CNN? Don't go over the bridge outside the building if you value your personal safety. Two blocks away the view of the world is decidedly different.

Aspen, you have entered some excellent posts. Maybe, though, you're just tired of pointless rhetoric from church leaders who don't - lead. I know I am. All the talk doesn't pass for paranoia though. I think the church needs a healthy dose of it. Maybe quite a bit.

But that's just me hollering from the choir loft....

 

[veteran]

Ok, so I grew up in the 60's. I remember church leaders preaching against American militarism, against the unjust use of corporate influence over the working man, against oppression of minorities. I remember it, I heard it and I saw it. Does anybody hear or see such things today in church or from the church? Anybody?

That says a whole lot about why you have such a negative view of the USA and what its flag represents. I grew up in the '60's too, but I didn't hear preachers preach against corporations, and especially not against our boys serving their country in the military! Nor did they preach liberal doctrines in promoting special interest groups in America, nor should they have! Obviously then, it matters a whole lot who one listens to, and what kind of Church they go to.

 

[ttruscott]

Closeted Marxists - lol. So they are ashamed to be Marxists?


I suggest that you go and brush up on the tenets of Fascism - the US is far more Fascist than communist in this stage of it's history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Wow, that quote, even if not exagerated with emotionalism, is a description of fascist life in the mid-1930-50s Germany. It has little to do with modern democracies nor those who cry "fascist" to justify breaking the law.

Ted

 

[brightmorningstar]

Very good point to notice. There is a lot of Christian - gay focus at the moment, yet whilst the media is keen on relatively equal representation of religions (even though the country is nominally over 60% Christian) there is little about this.
Seen a gay represntative on BBC Question Time Panel for 3 weeks running, but no Christians as such. One of the gay reps hit the nail on the head, we need freedom of speech on opinions. If there is a threat to violence the that is a different matter.
The latter gay rep (a famous pop star) wanted people like the RC Cardinal put in prison for hate crime for saying same sex relations were wrong (The Cardinal didnt make any personal comments about homosexuals themselves) and another pannelist called the Cardinal a looney.
I should have thought calling people loonies would have qualified more as a hate crime than an opinion on an issue or act. These people are so blind to what that are thinking, yet they are pop stars and journalists. Who has the microphone?

So I am sure the gay historian and most Christians could live together in society without too much fuss, and without the Christians being considered extreme fundamenatalists.

 

[veteran]

Very good point to notice. There is a lot of Christian - gay focus at the moment, yet whilst the media is keen on relatively equal representation of religions (even though the country is nominally over 60% Christian) there is little about this.
Seen a gay represntative on BBC Question Time Panel for 3 weeks running, but no Christians as such. One of the gay reps hit the nail on the head, we need freedom of speech on opinions. If there is a threat to violence the that is a different matter.
The latter gay rep (a famous pop star) wanted people like the RC Cardinal put in prison for hate crime for saying same sex relations were wrong (The Cardinal didnt make any personal comments about homosexuals themselves) and another pannelist called the Cardinal a looney.
I should have thought calling people loonies would have qualified more as a hate crime than an opinion on an issue or act. These people are so blind to what that are thinking, yet they are pop stars and journalists. Who has the microphone?

So I am sure the gay historian and most Christians could live together in society without too much fuss, and without the Christians being considered extreme fundamenatalists.

The real matter all that points to, is how Satan's servants today are using 'disagreement' as a 'hate crimes issue', simply to try and silence anyone who makes a stand against them and their coming false kingdom over all nations.

You younger generations need to understand something very important about that kind of working today. It is NOT a new working. The Communist nations per history used that 'speech crimes' tool to the hilt to silence all dissidents that were against Communism. It also allowed the Communist Party to determine exactly... who the dissenters were, so they could arrest them and imprison or execute them!

 

[brightmorningstar]

Good point veteran. They have infact infiltrated many Christian forums as Christians. (which is probably why the rule you mustn't call someone who identifies as Chruistian 'not a Christian' has been introuduced to these forums) As an Anglican I was refused posting on a liberal Anglican forum a scripturally based question regarding the homosexual issue, written in the 3rd party singular 'why would one' and totally respectful. The reason given was that it was too provocative. On another forum where the forum rules prohibited the promotion of homosexuality, a poster raised to moderators an issue that wording in the liberal subsection rules allowed promotion of homosexuality and prohibited criticism of it. A moderator replied that the forum advisors thanked him for poiting it out and that it would be changed. Nothing was done. When the member went to the section and posted Romans 1 in response to a defence of homosexuality in a thread there, he ended up banned.