Unanswered Question Concerning Jesus' Deity

[Gottservant]

And the point of this cryptic post is ..?

Just that what is deformity of a rope, may be conformity to a ball of rope.

You can't say "no we can't have a ball of rope, because we already have a rope" - that was the Pharisees' problem.

 

[marks]

If you twist a piece of rope, into a ball, the rope does not need to have been a ball already, the act of twisting makes it one.

Is this along the lines of Modalism?

Much love!

 

[Jim B]

Just that what is deformity of a rope, may be conformity to a ball of rope.

You can't say "no we can't have a ball of rope, because we already have a rope" - that was the Pharisees' problem.

And the point of this cryptic post is ..?

 

[Gottservant]

Is this along the lines of Modalism?

Much love!

I'm just saying don't forget "the difference" over "the essence".

If you need a rope, you can always unscramble a ball of rope, it's just harder to see it for what it is, if you do.

 

[Gottservant]

And the point of this cryptic post is ..?

Tie a knot in the rope, if you like: the point I am making is that it can be used as a metaphor for understanding Christ's deity.

 

[Aunty Jane]

But the Father required that death on the cross in order for God to take away the sin of the world. That death (which included the shedding of His blood for the remission of sins, and the offering of Himself body, soul, and spirit, as the one great sacrifice for sins) was foreordained by the Father from before the foundation of the world.

This is the part that really makes me shake my head....do you know what that highlighted expression means? Most people don't.
Did God plan for Adam to sin so that he would have to send his beloved son to die a horrible death for us?
What kind of God would do that?

 

[RLT63]

This is the part that really makes me shake my head....do you know what that highlighted expression means? Most people don't.
Did God plan for Adam to sin so that he would have to send his beloved son to die a horrible death for us?
What kind of God would do that?

I think there’s a difference in planning something and knowing what will happen—Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think there’s a difference in planning something and knowing what will happen—Rev 13:8 - And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

What does that expression "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" mean to you RLT?

 

[RLT63]

What does that expression "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" mean to you RLT?

It’s self explanatory

 

[Aunty Jane]

It’s self explanatory

No, it isn't.....the wording used is referring to "the foundation of the world (kosmos) of mankind", not the planet. That is the children of Adam and Eve...

The word "katabolē "translated "foundation" means....

"a throwing or laying down

1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb".....(Strongs)....this is not the creation of the universe of which this planet is but a small speck.
   
   "Kosmos" has as its primary definition..."an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government" which relates to the organization of mankind on the earth, not the planet itself. This is why original word studies are important. Bad translation gears towards false doctrine give the wrong impression.

Jesus did not die for the rebels, but for their children. He couldn't be sent to die for their children, until the sin was committed of their own free will. Their children were born AFTER they sinned. Christ came to rescue those who inherited sin through no fault on their part. Adam and his wife had no defect and chose to willfully disobey their Sovereign, in full knowledge of the consequences. There would be no forgiveness for that.

So NO, it is not self explanatory.....to infer that Christ died before mankind needed saving is to suggest that God planned for them to fail...he did not. It is so easy to read into scripture what is not there, except by inference in a biased English translation.

 

[RLT63]

No, it isn't.....the wording used is referring to "the foundation of the world (kosmos) of mankind", not the planet. That is the children of Adam and Eve...

The word "katabolē "translated "foundation" means....

"a throwing or laying down

1. the injection or depositing of the virile semen in the womb".....(Strongs)....this is not the creation of the universe of which this planet is but a small speck.
   
   "Kosmos" has as its primary definition..."an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government" which relates to the organization of mankind on the earth, not the planet itself. This is why original word studies are important. Bad translation gears towards false doctrine give the wrong impression.

Jesus did not die for the rebels, but for their children. He couldn't be sent to die for their children, until the sin was committed of their own free will. Their children were born AFTER they sinned. Christ came to rescue those who inherited sin through no fault on their part. Adam and his wife had no defect and chose to willfully disobey their Sovereign, in full knowledge of the consequences. There would be no forgiveness for that.

So NO, it is not self explanatory.....to infer that Christ died before mankind needed saving is to suggest that God planned for them to fail...he did not. It is so easy to read into scripture what is not there, except by inference in a biased English translation.

I knew you would explain why it doesn’t say what it clearly does. Of the world is a phrase used repeatedly throughout the Bible ( do a search) and it means what it says Job 18:18 - He shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world /////. 2Sa 22:16 - And the channel of the sea appeared, the foundations-of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast ofthe breath of his nostrils///:/

Job 37:12 - And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Tools

Psa 17:14 - From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are fullof children, and leave the-rest of their substance to their babes. Look it up. It’s the same phrase.
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[Aunty Jane]

I knew you would explain why it doesn’t say what it clearly does. Of the world is a phrase used repeatedly throughout the Bible ( do a search) and it means what it says Job 18:18 - He shall be driven from light into darkness, and chased out of the world /////. 2Sa 22:16 - And the channel of the sea appeared, the foundations-of the world were discovered, at the rebuking of the LORD, at the blast ofthe breath of his nostrils///:/

Job 37:12 - And it is turned round about by his counsels: that they may do whatsoever he commandeth them upon the face of the world in the earth.
Tools

Psa 17:14 - From men which are thy hand, O LORD, from men of the world which have their portion in this life, and whose belly thou fillest with thy hid treasure: they are fullof children, and leave the-rest of their substance to their babes. Look it up. It’s the same phrase.
:

Well, two can play at this game....
"Kosmos" means both the world of mankind and the world as part of creation, but context determines which meaning is appropriate.

Matt 4:8...."Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world G2889 and their glory".
"The world of mankind" created kingdoms.

Matt 5:14...“You are the light of the world. G2889 A city set on a hill cannot be hidden".
A light to "the world of mankind"....not the planet.

Matt 18:7...“Woe to the world G2889 because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!"
That is woe to "the world of mankind", earth's inhabitants...you can't stumble the planet.

John 1:10..."He was in the world, G2889 and the world G2889 was made through Him, and the world G2889 did not know Him."

Jesus was in the world, among humanity......the world (planet) was made through him, because he was at his Father's side in creation, but since he was "with" his God at the beginning of creation, "kosmos" could also mean the world of mankind here....

The world of humankind did not know him because the devil misrepresented him through his minions....and still is, trying to make him into something he never was.

So you see you cannot be arbitrary in your definitions.....dig deeper. The Bible explains itself if you let it.

 

[quietthinker]

Jesus will be returning sir, on this we agree, of course he is not coming in the flesh, and he likely is not coming for the reasons you think. In the very near future, Jesus will return to remove satan and his demons to the abyss, and to remove the goats. You can read this for yourself at 2 Thes 1:6-9

Jesus is returning as a rescue mission for all his people.

Luke 24:39 After the resurrection........'See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.'

Acts 1:11 'This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven' .....'like manner' in context, meaning with clouds.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Do what?

I am sorry Rl, I do not understand the question sir. Might you expound on it.

 

[RLT63]

Well, two can play at this game....
"Kosmos" means both the world of mankind and the world as part of creation, but context determines which meaning is appropriate.

Matt 4:8...."Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world G2889 and their glory".
"The world of mankind" created kingdoms.

Matt 5:14...“You are the light of the world. G2889 A city set on a hill cannot be hidden".
A light to "the world of mankind"....not the planet.

Matt 18:7...“Woe to the world G2889 because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!"
That is woe to "the world of mankind", earth's inhabitants...you can't stumble the planet.

John 1:10..."He was in the world, G2889 and the world G2889 was made through Him, and the world G2889 did not know Him."

Jesus was in the world, among humanity......the world (planet) was made through him, because he was at his Father's side in creation, but since he was "with" his God at the beginning of creation, "kosmos" could also mean the world of mankind here....

The world of humankind did not know him because the devil misrepresented him through his minions....and still is, trying to make him into something he never was.

So you see you cannot be arbitrary in your definitions.....dig deeper. The Bible explains itself if you let it.

Yes the world can refer to the planet or all of the people in the world. So what does foundation of the world mean? It’s obvious.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Jesus is returning as a rescue mission for all his people.

Luke 24:39 After the resurrection........'See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.'

Acts 1:11 'This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven' .....'like manner' in context, meaning with clouds.

Very true Thinkr. Mat 24:22. 2 Thes 1:6-9: Ps 37:9-11

 

[bbyrd009]

But the Father required that death on the cross in order for God to take away the sin of the world

if only you could Quote that, huh? One, single time
ill just hold my breath shall i

its utter crap, sorry

 

[bbyrd009]

Did God plan for Adam to sin

surely?

so that he would have to send his beloved son to die a horrible death for us?

hmm that was Caiaphas i guess, at least according to the Bible?

 

[Wrangler]

Yes the world can refer to the planet or all of the people in the world. So what does foundation of the world mean? It’s obvious.

If every thread and post explores the meaning of words, it muddies up conversation.

• Worse, it violates Scripture. It is AS IF @Aunty Jane never read 2 Timothy 2:14.
• I suppose her IDOLATRY of knowledge and pedantic nature cannot help but sin, in showing off that she knows foreign language words and what they mean.

Fortunately for us, we are speaking an established language, where words are already defined.

2 Timothy 2:14 (NLT) stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them.

Titus 3:9 (ESV) But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

2 Timothy 2:23 (CJB) But stay away from stupid and ignorant controversies — you know that they lead to fights