UNDERSTANDING OUR SALVATION

[Mayflower]

lets do a break down is Christ faith or by faith in what CHRIST DID FOR US BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH . the disciples said increase our faith, Jesus said if you had faith he did it BY faith i dont find any place that says i found faith Calvinism teaches God has to give us faith first and to some degree i agree on that . even though i am not a Calvinism fan . all though our faith is increased the more we do for Christ you ask interesting questions

From Romans 12:3, we are all given a measure of faith. I would say that is a lot more then a mustard seed too! Does this mean that the faith we have is all we are ever going to get? Is it really instead of gaining more faith that we are just "hearing" God's Word and activating the faith God has given us already? Some will do absolutely nothing with the faith they have been given.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Is it not Christ's faith which we are saved by Grace?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

Although the Bible mentions many times how by faith Abraham, how by faith Abel offered, how by faith Enoch was translated...
How is it they obtained faith?
Noah found Grace in the eys of the Lord.
Was this before or after he found faith?

Interesting discussion
Thank You

Hi Ziggy, you might like to check other translations and commentators with regard to your Galatians 2:16 verse.
Many of them regard "faith of Christ" to be synonymous with "faith in Christ".

It is true that our faith in Christ originates in and is completed by Him, and this is simply because He is both the object and subject of our faith. By way of analogy, when an artist begins painting a portrait it begins with the object he wishes to paint becoming the subject of his painting, stroke by stroke until the portrait is finished.

Heb 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[prism]

The Bible makes clear that faith is how we access grace, and therefore faith precedes grace, thus precedes salvation - yer Calvinism has reversed what scripture says

Perhaps there is a middle way, between Calvin and Arminius?
Could you explain these passages (especially the highlighted part)...

Matthew 16:15-17 (KJV) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

It sounds that it was through God's grace that God revealed His Son to Peter,

and Paul

1 Corinthians 15:9-10 (KJV) For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Galatians 1:15-16 (KJV) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

 

[Ziggy]

Hi Ziggy, you might like to check other translations and commentators with regard to your Galatians 2:16 verse.
Many of them regard "faith of Christ" to be synonymous with "faith in Christ".

It is true that our faith in Christ originates in and is completed by Him, and this is simply because He is both the object and subject of our faith. By way of analogy, when an artist begins painting a portrait it begins with the object he wishes to paint becoming the subject of his painting, stroke by stroke until the portrait is finished.

Heb 12:1-2 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which does so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, (2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Thank You
The first thought that came to mind was:
God supplies the canvas on which to paint upon.

 

[Curtis]

Perhaps there is a middle way, between Calvin and Arminius?
Could you explain these passages (especially the highlighted part)...

Matthew 16:15-17 (KJV) He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

It sounds that it was through God's grace that God revealed His Son to Peter,

and Paul

1 Corinthians 15:9-10 (KJV) For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Galatians 1:15-16 (KJV) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

God gives faith, but we have free will to receive or reject faith, by resisting the Holy Spirit.

Neither Paul or Peter were irresistibly saved, after being given faith.

Romans 10:17 states how faith comes - it comes by hearing the word of God.


The Holy Spirit, who is the one who draws us to Christ, sufficiently enlightens those who hear the word of God enough to believe, and it’s the HS who draws us to Jesus, but he cannot drag them to salvation.


Once we have faith, we have freewill to either reject Jesus, as the elect nation of Israel did John 1:11, or to receive Jesus, and become a child of God John 1:12.


Israel was God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4.


Israel is who Jesus specifically came for, Matthew 15:24.


Yet though they were Gods own elect, and Jesus came specifically to save them, they rejected Him.


Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him NOT.


So we have freewill.


We have freewill because the Holy Spirit, who gives faith to those who hear, and who draws us to Jesus, can be resisted.


There is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to those elect Jews who rejected Jesus in John 1:11, who refused to come to Jesus (though He yearned for them to) Luke 13:34, and explained that they were able to reject and kill Jesus, and to kill the prophets God sent them - because they resist the Holy Spirit.


Stephen said:


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


Faith comes from hearing the word of God Romans 10:17 - then we have the freewill choice to either receive Jesus and become a son of God John 1:12, or to resist the Holy Spirit Acts 7:51, and reject Jesus John 1:11.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Thank You
The first thought that came to mind was:
God supplies the canvas on which to paint upon.

Yes, I have no issue with faith originating from God, just the predetermining of who gets it and who doesn't. God foreknowing who comes to faith and who doesn't, yes, but not His unwillingness to supply everyone.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Once we have faith, we have freewill to either reject Jesus, as the elect nation of Israel did John 1:11, or to receive Jesus, and become a child of God John 1:12.

Yes, unbelieving Israel got broken off, so much for being predestined there, and also if salvation is only to those predestined to receive faith, how is it, as Scripture says, they were ever by nature children of wrath?

Eph 2:1-3 And you has he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (2) Wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: (3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

 

[prism]

God gives faith, but we have free will to receive or reject faith, by resisting the Holy Spirit.

Neither Paul or Peter were irresistibly saved, after being given faith.

Romans 10:17 states how faith comes - it comes by hearing the word of God.


The Holy Spirit, who is the one who draws us to Christ, sufficiently enlightens those who hear the word of God enough to believe, and it’s the HS who draws us to Jesus, but he cannot drag them to salvation.


Once we have faith, we have freewill to either reject Jesus, as the elect nation of Israel did John 1:11, or to receive Jesus, and become a child of God John 1:12.


Israel was God’s elect. Isaiah 45:4.


Israel is who Jesus specifically came for, Matthew 15:24.


Yet though they were Gods own elect, and Jesus came specifically to save them, they rejected Him.


Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him NOT.


So we have freewill.


We have freewill because the Holy Spirit, who gives faith to those who hear, and who draws us to Jesus, can be resisted.


There is no such thing as irresistible grace.


Stephen preached to those elect Jews who rejected Jesus in John 1:11, who refused to come to Jesus (though He yearned for them to) Luke 13:34, and explained that they were able to reject and kill Jesus, and to kill the prophets God sent them - because they resist the Holy Spirit.


Stephen said:


Act 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always RESIST THE HOLY GHOST: as your fathers did, so do ye.


Act 7:52 Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who announced beforehand the coming of the Righteous One, whom you have now betrayed and murdered (Jesus).


Faith comes from hearing the word of God Romans 10:17 - then we have the freewill choice to either receive Jesus and become a son of God John 1:12, or to resist the Holy Spirit Acts 7:51, and reject Jesus John 1:11.

Thanks, but you never directly addressed those verses I gave you about grace coming before faith.
Also you kept on about free will.
Could you kindly explain how fallen man has free will seeing he is a SLAVE to sin, satan and his flesh?

 

[Addy]

I don't know how anyone got Calvinism out of the OP reading... I "heard" ... we can't... but HE CAN and HE DOES... and HE WILL NOT FORSAKE us EVER. HE will FINISH within us ... that which HE has BEGUN. Thank you @Pearl ... I am one of those who understands so very well that I cannot... my entire existence relies on the PROMISE that HE WILL. Blessings to you. ~Addy

 

[Curtis]

Thanks, but you never directly addressed those verses I gave you about grace coming before faith.
Also you kept on about free will.
Could you kindly explain how fallen man has free will seeing he is a SLAVE to sin, satan and his flesh?

I see, you posit the usual Calvinist theology.

Did you hear about the slaves in the south, who never escaped their masters, never tried to escape, and never even thought about or desired to escape their slavery?

No?

And neither has anyone else.

Being a slave to sin does not equate to total inability to want, and seek, freedom from sin, anymore than it meant total inability for plantation slaves to want to be free, or inability to seek escape when an opportunity was given to them.

God told the carnal Israelites that they can choose who they will serve. They didn’t have any total inability to make a choice between serving God, or not. Total inability is a false construct of the fatalistic philosophy of determinism from John Calvin.

Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jos 24:16 And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods;

Jos 24:17 For the LORD our God, he it is that brought us up and our fathers out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage, and which did those great signs in our sight, and preserved us in all the way wherein we went, and among all the people through whom we passed:

Jos 24:18 And the LORD drave out from before us all the people, even the Amorites which dwelt in the land: therefore will we also serve the LORD; for he is our God.

Jos 24:19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

Jos 24:20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

Jos 24:21 And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

Jos 24:22 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

Jos 24:23 Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the LORD God of Israel.

Jos 24:24 And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.

 

[Curtis]

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,

That’s a well known KJV mistranslation. It’s faith IN Christ that saves us, not His faith that saves us.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Here’s how it should read:

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Did you know, Jesus has no faith?

Here’s what faith is:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Faith is the substance of things HOPED FOR. Jesus doesn’t hope for anything, He is God. He has everything and knows everything and can do everything. He doesn’t hope for a particular outcome.

And faith is the evidence of things unseen. He knows everything, sees everything, there’s nothing unseen to Jesus.

Jesus has absolute certainty, He KNOWS, He doesn’t need to hope for things Hes never seen.

I don’t have faith I am married, or hope I’m married - I know I’m married.

See the difference? Therefore we can’t be saved by the faith OF Christ.

 

[Curtis]

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[Ziggy]

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It's almost 4:30 in the morning.
I'll have to circle back on that Curtis.
Have a great morning
hugs

 

[Curtis]

I don't know how anyone got Calvinism out of the OP reading... I "heard" ... we can't... but HE CAN and HE DOES... and HE WILL NOT FORSAKE us EVER. HE will FINISH within us ... that which HE has BEGUN. Thank you @Pearl ... I am one of those who understands so very well that I cannot... my entire existence relies on the PROMISE that HE WILL. Blessings to you. ~Addy

So you missed the classic Calvinist argument he was making, I see.

I went back and found the first one of many:

In our natural condition we are unresponsive to the gospel: the Bible refers to us as “dead” in our sins (Romans 6:11). We are also unperceptive; the gospel is “veiled” to us, and the god of this world has “blinded” the minds of those who do not believe (2 Corinthians 4:3–4). Without Christ, we are also unteachable: not only can we not receive the things of God, but we also consider them foolish and cannot know them because they are only spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14)

That’s the classic T in TULIP - total inability, due to being dead in sins, and can’t respond to the gospel.

 

[Addy]

In our natural condition we are unresponsive to the gospel: the Bible refers to us as “dead” in our sins (Romans 6:11). We are also unperceptive; the gospel is “veiled” to us, and the god of this world has “blinded” the minds of those who do not believe (2 Corinthians 4:3–4). Without Christ, we are also unteachable: not only can we not receive the things of God, but we also consider them foolish and cannot know them because they are only spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14)

That’s the classic T in TULIP - total inability, due to being dead in sins, and can’t respond to the gospel.

I see how you are taking it... but I did not read that... I read that God is faithful to finish what HE has begun... Meaning we are SECURE in our salvation... I did not read ELECT or PRE-DESTINED only for HIS CHOSEN...

Without Christ we ARE unteachable... He is the ONE who has saved us. He is the ONE who gives us the road map to NEW life.

Anyways... all a matter of perception... Believe me... I am usually all over Calvinism. We just read this differently is all.

 

[Pearl]

You’re presenting the gospel according to John Calvin, and not according to John 3:16.

Calvinism is absolutely backwards in the bottom line conclusion it reaches, in trying to fit scripture into what they call the doctrine of grace.

The Bible makes clear that faith is how we access grace, and therefore faith precedes grace, thus precedes salvation - yer Calvinism has reversed what scripture says

Scripture says the sequence of salvation is: 1. believe 2. be saved
Acts 16 the jailer asked, what must I do to be saved? The answer was 1. Believe in the Lord Jesus and 2. you shall be saved.

Yet Calvinism has to reverse the sequence of salvation, to make it fit reformed dogma. In Calvinism the salvation sequence is 1) be saved and 2) believe.

If Paul gave the calvinist version of salvation, when the jailer asked, what must I do to be saved?, the answer would be NOTHING - if you’re one of the elect, you are predestined to be regenerated, and then you will believe in Jesus and be saved - and if you’re not predestined and elected, you cannot ever believe, and you will be damned.

Calvinism claims that everyone is born so spiritually dead, that it’s impossible to believe the gospel, unless God First regenerates them (the elect only) and makes them alive (thus granting them salvation), and then they will believe.

So compare scripture that states: 1. believe 2. be saved saved with Calvinism: 1. be saved 2. believe.

This means that the claim that grace/salvation/regeneration precedes faith, is diametrically opposed (reversed, backwards) to scriptures that state faith precedes grace/salvation/regeneration.

So how does faith come?

In reformed dogma/Calvinism, faith comes only by being one of the predestined elect, and being regenerated and made spiritually alive and receive grace.

Yet Romans 10:17 states that faith comes by hearing the word of God.

The sequence of biblical salvation is: 1) hearing the word and getting the gift of faith Romans 10:17 2) choosing to reject or receive Jesus John 1:11-12 3) being saved.

Ephesians 2:8-9 by grace are you saved THROUGH faith.

Yes, faith is the gift that we get from God that we get to grace, THROUGH.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of FAITH that it might be by GRACE; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access BY faith INTO this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Faith is how you access grace. Faith precedes grace.

Yet Calvinists insist that grace/regeneration precedes faith.

I’ve run into so many Calvinists that don’t even know the doctrine they espouse (proclaim), teaches that regeneration precedes faith, that I’ll post this link to RC Sproul on a Calvinist website, to prove they teach exactly that: Regeneration Precedes Faith

Calvinism’s version of Ephesians of 2:8-9 is: by grace (regeneration) you are saved, and then have faith.

But faith is how we get TO grace. And faith is the gift we get when we hear the word of God.

Faith comes from hearing Gods word, not from being the elect - Calvinism is gross theological error.

I don't know anything about Calvinism. But I do know that when God takes hold of us He doesn't let go and all we are and will become is through the power and guidance of His Holy Spirit. If we don't have the Holy Spirit in our lives will will not becomes the new creations that this verse speaks of.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here!

 

[tsr]

According to the Bible teaching about assurance of salvation, we are saved. The Bible teaching about our assurance of salvation is about eternal life - something that is perpetual, never ending and everlasting. By definition it is not intermittent, sporadic, come and go, have and lose, periodic, or a possibility

UNDERSTANDING OUR SALVATION
Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ. — Philippians 1:6
THE ORIGIN OF OUR SALVATION
“He who has begun a good work in you”

Who began the good work in you? The Lord. You reply, “I thought I did. I thought I repented. I thought I came to Christ. I thought I took the initiative.” No, God did. Just as in the early chapters of Genesis, He took the skins of an innocent, sacrificial animal to cover the sin of Adam and Eve. God is still the initiator in covering our sins today. Fig leaves will not do. Solomon was on target when he said, “He who covers his sins will not prosper, but whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy” (Proverbs 28:13).

THE OUTCOME OF SALVATION
“[He] will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ”

What is the outcome of this marvelous salvation provided us in Christ? It means we are secure. We are secure in the now life and in the next life as well.

 

[prism]

I see, you posit the usual Calvinist theology

When you jump to false conclusions like the above, you shut down the conversation as well as show me you won’t listen to the other side. I’d be wasting my time to go further.

 

[Addy]

When you jump to false conclusions like the above, you shut down the conversation as well as show me you won’t listen to the other side. I’d be wasting my time to go further.

I have just returned from a sabbatical... You are definitely NOT new... because I see you have many posts... but I have not made your acquaintance as of yet.... Hello to you from Canada.

 

[prism]

I have just returned from a sabbatical... You are definitely NOT new... because I see you have many posts... but I have not made your acquaintance as of yet.... Hello to you from Canada.

Canada? What part? I have a few relatives up there.
I come and go. Hopefully will stay longer as my time and maturity allow, lol.