farouk
Well-Known Member
I think 1 Corinthians 10.32 is profoundly thought-provoking as to the three entities in the world... :)It did apply to myself; I used to be a Dispensationalist. But the Spirit bought me great discomfort on that doctrine and pushed me to look for it in scripture. It wasn't there...as you know. However, the more I read, studied and prayed about it, I found Pre-Millennialism wasn't there either.
The fact that you, apparently, can't even engage in a decent conversation about the topic with a sister in Christ, speaks more to you than me, I'd wager.
Could I be wrong? Sure...and surprising or not, I'm completely open to that notion. God might not be done leading me. However, I'm not going to persuaded by arrogant men who have more time for their own opinions than for another humble searcher.
If you want to disagree with me biblically, then do so as I present my case. If you are just going to start out a conversation with "I'm right and you're SO wrong I laugh at the length of your pathetic case"...then I have to shake my head at the irony of everything you said above. Look in a mirror, huh?
You're really very rude for a Christian, did you know that?
But, no...it's not hot air. Is it hot air to claim that the Pentateuch needs to be read as history and not poetry? Is it hot air to suggest it's important to read Daniel as apocalyptic rather than a psalm? Is it hot air to say that the epistles need to be read as letters rather than prophecy?
Of course its not, and anyone who's been through Primary school has been taught that. Genre matters. If you ever tried to hand in poetry for what was supposed to be a book report...you would have failed. And so, suggesting that approaching each bible book as the genre it was written, is ONLY hot air if you failed English.
And I didn't accuse you of HIDING anything.
But Early Church Fathers...those are cool, you trust them to be right. Except when you don't...which seems to be a matrix that only you can figure out. Oh...and based on the fact that they were Pre-Mill AND needed to be championing it at all time. Poor Justin...he just HAD to say there were other valid views, didn't he? Now he's out.
I'm sorry...you think Christ is NOT reigning now? You think I didn't "back it up" with scripture? Then...what about all the scripture? Is it cool to ignore scripture?
that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22
I'm sorry, but how does this imply Christ's reign is only in the future? Where does it say "will put all things under his feet"? It doesn't, it says "he put"...present tense. 'When he raised him from the dead'...that's not future, that was 2000 years ago. "This age and the age to come"...also present tense, just ongoing into the next one...
Please tell me HOW the above verse teaches only a FUTURE reign of Christ?
who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. -1 Peter 3:22
"IS at"...not 'will be at'. "Having BEEN subjected to him"....not 'will be subjected to him. Again, please tell me HOW this teaches only a future reign?
Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, -Philippians 2:9
"God HAS highly exalted him"...not 'God will highly exult him'. "Bestowed on him"...not 'will bestow'.
HOW does this teach only a future reign?
Except, Matt 25:31-34 isn't talking about reigning...its talking about judgement. And yes, that IS future. But sitting in judgement is not the same as the verses that TELL us outright that Christ IS ruling and reigning now.
Again, Matt 26:28-29 is not speaking of reigning, just of being reunited with his bride. Which is the messianic banquet. Still not talking about ruling NOW, and still doesn't contradict the verses I gave above.
Luke 22:29-30...nope...still not speaking of his current reign (or not reign). It's speaking of the the future age, eternity, when we shall receive our rewards in the presence of Christ. YOu will note, however, that Christ says that he will give us our rewards, just as the Father 'assigned to him a Kingdom'. Not "will assign". Again, not proof that Christ is NOT reigning now.
1 Cor 15:50...now you're starting to list verses that outright support my view! This tells us ONLY that the corruptible cannot inherit the Kingdom. Two clear points here: one, Christ can totally reign over this Kingdom, as he was the firstfruits to receive the incorruptible body...plus, you know, he's Christ. Plus, the verse says INHERIT. This would only be a problem if the Kingdom that Christ reigns over is to end before his second coming. The fact is, we know that 'his Kingdom will last forever'. In other words, all this verse is saying is; we gotta get the upgrade before the Kingdom is fully consummated. Before we get heaven...paradise on earth, we must pass through death or the return of Christ. Again...sorry, this verse does NOT contradict the verses that tells us Christ reigns NOW.
Psalm 2...ah...you do know that this was written BEFORE Christ came, died and was resurrected, yeah? Therefore any 'future reign' it speaks of...would be future...of course. You can't use this to try and prove what future. For the OT prophets, future was future. They saw all comings as one. They did not have the special revelation that let them know Christ would have 2 comings. Sorry.
Rev 5:10...this is not even talking about Christ! Its speaking of his Church being 'kings and priests'...which is interesting, really, as there are other verses that can prove that this is happening now (1 Pet 2:9). But still....NOT about Christ and his ruling status.
Rev 11:14-18...nice verse, but still not what you need. Remember in the Lord's prayer how we pray "your Kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven"? This is what this verse is about...the moment when Christ's will is done everywhere; heaven, earth, in all hearts and minds. This does NOT say he is not currently ruling, just that there is a time coming when heaven is bought to earth in a way it is not currently.\
Now...again. You've made some fairly hefty and rude accusation at me. And while my sarcasm always leaps to the fore when that happens, I am trying my darndest to stick solely to the argument at hand. And the argument is this: I have several verses that OUTRIGHT tell us that Christ rules now. You appear to only have verses that you BELIEVE tells us that it is yet future. None of them, I'm sorry, contradicts or casts doubts on the verses that speak to it outright.
How are you doing, @Naomi25 ? good to see you.