Hello there
Jesus calls it a great city and also shows us that its the city of apostate Israel
Understanding Who and What is the Babylon of Revelation.
- Thread starter Hobie
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Jesus calls it a great city and also shows us that its the city of apostate Israel
Below are 10 biblical points bible that tie first century Jerusalem to Babylon the great.
1) Ezekiel 16 and Revelation 18
If you read Ezekiel chapter 16 you will see that God mentions that Jerusalem prostituted herself to the nations. See how it resembles Revelation chapter 18 as God judges that great prostitute who the kings of the earth commit adultery with. There are many similarities between Ezekiel 16 and Revelation 18.
2) The woman in the wilderness.
In Revelation 12:6 & 12:14 the woman (Israel) is taken into the wilderness for protection for a set time. We then find a women in the wilderness in Revelation 17:3 sitting on a beast as John is taken into the wilderness to see. This woman is called the great prostitute. The name on her forehead is
Babylon the great
the mother of prostitutes
and of the abominations of the earth.
If this wasn’t the same woman in Revelation 12 then what happened to the woman in Revelation 12 after the set time?
3) The great city
Babylon the great is called "the great city" in Revelation 17:18 and Revelation 18:21. Not "a great city" but "the great city". A great city could be one of many great cities, but "the great city" could only be one city. Revelation 11:8 says that "the great city" is the city where our lord was crucified. Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.
4) 1 Peter 5:13 states she who is in Babylon greets you.
This shows that the saints knew who Babylon was at that time. It has been said that the "she" in Babylon was the church in Jerusalem where it is believed that Peter lived at that time.
5) The woman dressed in scarlet and gold.
In Revelation 17:4 the woman is dressed in scarlet, gold and precious stones. Jeremiah 4:30 also says that Jerusalem is dressed in scarlet jewels and gold.
6) Your lovers will despise and kill you.
Both Jerusalem in Jeremiah 4:30-31 and Babylon the great in Revelation 17 are killed by her lovers.
Some people believe that Babylon the great will be the city that a future antichrist
known as the beast will rule from. In Revelation 17:16-17 it says that the beast and
the 10 horns will hate the prostitute and bring her to ruin because God had put it into
their hearts to accomplish his purpose. Why would the beast destroy the city or
empire that he rules from? Rome who I believe to be the beast did destroy Jerusalem.
In 70AD Rome did destroy Jerusalem for Gods purpose.
7) The nations will mourn
Jeremiah 4:28 says the earth will mourn at the destruction of Jerusalem. Revelation 18:9,11,15 and 19 all say that the kings, merchants and all who work on the seas will mourn at the destruction of Babylon the great.
8) The cup of Gods wrath
Both Jerusalem and Babylon the great drink the cup of Gods wrath. Isaiah 51:17 & Revelation 16:19
9) A queen and a widow.
In Revelation 18:7 Babylon the great says "I sit as queen I will never be a widow". Jerusalem in Lamentations 1:1-2 is described as a queen who is now a widow. Both Babylon the great and Jerusalem’s friends betray and destroy them.
10) All who have been killed on the earth. This is the most important point.
Revelation 18:20
20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you.”
Revelation 18:24
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
Revelation 18:20 says that Babylon the great killed both the saints and the prophets. Revelation 18:24 says Babylon the great is responsible for all of the blood of the saints and prophets and all that have been killed on the earth.
Only Israel is responsible for killing both the prophets and the saints.
Now read what Jesus said in Matthew 23:35 as he was prophesying about the destruction of Jerusalem
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
1) Ezekiel 16 and Revelation 18
If you read Ezekiel chapter 16 you will see that God mentions that Jerusalem prostituted herself to the nations. See how it resembles Revelation chapter 18 as God judges that great prostitute who the kings of the earth commit adultery with. There are many similarities between Ezekiel 16 and Revelation 18.
2) The woman in the wilderness.
In Revelation 12:6 & 12:14 the woman (Israel) is taken into the wilderness for protection for a set time. We then find a women in the wilderness in Revelation 17:3 sitting on a beast as John is taken into the wilderness to see. This woman is called the great prostitute. The name on her forehead is
Babylon the great
the mother of prostitutes
and of the abominations of the earth.
If this wasn’t the same woman in Revelation 12 then what happened to the woman in Revelation 12 after the set time?
3) The great city
Babylon the great is called "the great city" in Revelation 17:18 and Revelation 18:21. Not "a great city" but "the great city". A great city could be one of many great cities, but "the great city" could only be one city. Revelation 11:8 says that "the great city" is the city where our lord was crucified. Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.
4) 1 Peter 5:13 states she who is in Babylon greets you.
This shows that the saints knew who Babylon was at that time. It has been said that the "she" in Babylon was the church in Jerusalem where it is believed that Peter lived at that time.
5) The woman dressed in scarlet and gold.
In Revelation 17:4 the woman is dressed in scarlet, gold and precious stones. Jeremiah 4:30 also says that Jerusalem is dressed in scarlet jewels and gold.
6) Your lovers will despise and kill you.
Both Jerusalem in Jeremiah 4:30-31 and Babylon the great in Revelation 17 are killed by her lovers.
Some people believe that Babylon the great will be the city that a future antichrist
known as the beast will rule from. In Revelation 17:16-17 it says that the beast and
the 10 horns will hate the prostitute and bring her to ruin because God had put it into
their hearts to accomplish his purpose. Why would the beast destroy the city or
empire that he rules from? Rome who I believe to be the beast did destroy Jerusalem.
In 70AD Rome did destroy Jerusalem for Gods purpose.
7) The nations will mourn
Jeremiah 4:28 says the earth will mourn at the destruction of Jerusalem. Revelation 18:9,11,15 and 19 all say that the kings, merchants and all who work on the seas will mourn at the destruction of Babylon the great.
8) The cup of Gods wrath
Both Jerusalem and Babylon the great drink the cup of Gods wrath. Isaiah 51:17 & Revelation 16:19
9) A queen and a widow.
In Revelation 18:7 Babylon the great says "I sit as queen I will never be a widow". Jerusalem in Lamentations 1:1-2 is described as a queen who is now a widow. Both Babylon the great and Jerusalem’s friends betray and destroy them.
10) All who have been killed on the earth. This is the most important point.
Revelation 18:20
20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you.”
Revelation 18:24
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
Revelation 18:20 says that Babylon the great killed both the saints and the prophets. Revelation 18:24 says Babylon the great is responsible for all of the blood of the saints and prophets and all that have been killed on the earth.
Only Israel is responsible for killing both the prophets and the saints.
Now read what Jesus said in Matthew 23:35 as he was prophesying about the destruction of Jerusalem
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
False statement followed by a true statement.
True statement: Jesus calls the harlot it the great city in the Revelation.
False statement: and shows us that it's the city of apostate Israel.
The New Testament apostate Israel = the church.
The part of Israel that was broken off from Israel in the first century when they rejected Christ cannot be considered a harlot any more than those who practice Hinduism or Islam can.
In scripture only God's elect being unfaithful and following other gods or religions is a harlot.
You are calling unbelieving Israel God's elect.
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Many Christians (rather conveniently) have made the assumption that because Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders in Matthew 23:29-38, "Babylon the Great" is therefore referring to the city of Jerusalem which was destroyed in 70 A.D.
But all those who do this forget the warning of Paul in Romans 11:21-22; the exhortation of Jesus in Revelation 3:18; and the warning in Revelation 2:21-22 to Jezebel of the church at Thyatira and those who commit (spiritual) adultery with her.
But all those who do this forget the warning of Paul in Romans 11:21-22; the exhortation of Jesus in Revelation 3:18; and the warning in Revelation 2:21-22 to Jezebel of the church at Thyatira and those who commit (spiritual) adultery with her.
The city of the Jews is not the church at Thyatira. In the book of Revelation, only:-
(1) Jezebel of the church at Thyatira & her followers; as well as
(2) the kings of the earth; and
(3) the harlot
are said to commit fornication.
I have no idea what you are talking about I didn’t call unbelieving Israel Gods elect
Apostate Israel are the ones who rejected and killed the God and Messiah
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
and they are not the church at Thyatira.
In the book of Revelation, only:-
(1) Jezebel of the church at Thyatira & her followers; as well as
(2) the kings of the earth; and
(3) the harlot
are said to commit fornication.
Sorry but You have confused me I have no idea what you are saying or even if you are accusing me of I’m
Last edited:
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
They did not kill the prophets, and they had not yet murdered any saints.
Jesus was only saying that those who make themselves responsible for the righteous blood of His elect are equally responsible for the blood of all murdered prophets and saints as those who killed the prophets are.
That includes The Vatican because it shed the blood of many saints during the Reformation wars, and even before that. Burning one of the first people who translated the Bible into English on a stake.
Jesus was only saying that those who make themselves responsible for the righteous blood of His elect are equally responsible for the blood of all murdered prophets and saints as those who killed the prophets are.
That includes The Vatican because it shed the blood of many saints during the Reformation wars, and even before that. Burning one of the first people who translated the Bible into English on a stake.
Last edited:
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
You're saying that Babylon the Great = Israel of the Old Testament. Or that's what it appears you are saying
And I'm not "accusing" you of any crime. Not nice to say I'm "accusing" you:
Yes they did kill the prophets Jesus even stated it in the very next verse
Matthew 23
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.
And if you read the book of Acts you will see how apostate Israel killed the saints
I’m saying that apostate Israel is Babylon the great the unfaithful Jews who rejected and killed their prophets and God and messiah
I will check in on this in the morning
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
False. Babylon the Great is not killed by her lovers in the Revelation. He lovers are the kings of the earth who commit fornication with her and weep and wail at her demise when she is killed by the 10 kings of the beast who will hate her.
The kings of the earth who weep and wail over her demise are not the same as the 10 kings who hate and destroy her.
Her lovers are not the beast, as you falsely claim below:
The beast does not rule from Rome. Babylon the Great does not rule over the 10 kings i.e the beast she is seated on.
Not only Old Testament Israel has been or will ever be held responsible by God for the blood of all the prophets and all the saints. You misunderstand the scripture in Matthew 23. In Matthew 23 Jesus said that anyone who sheds the blood of saints is equally responsible for shedding the blood of prophets as those who actually shed their blood are.
Last edited:
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
The generation Jesus was talking to had not killed the prophets who lived hundreds of years before them. But Jesus told them whoever kills prophets or saints is equally responsible for the blood of all prophets and all saints - whether it be the Jewish leaders of the first century killing the saints, or any church who kills the saints at a later stage (i.e Babylon the Great who will be responsible for the blood of all prophets and all saints slain by those who claim to be acting for God).
You misunderstand what Jesus is saying.
Truth7t7
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2014
- 10,856
- 3,275
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Your claim (Mystery Babylon) is the apostate church is laughable
Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified
(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(Revelation) 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Your claim that Babylon the Great is Old Testament Jerusalem - the holy city of the Old Testament - is laughable.
In the book of Revelation, only:-
(1) Jezebel of the church at Thyatira & her followers; as well as
(2) the kings of the earth; and
(3) the harlot
are said to commit fornication.
Old Testament Israel's capital city never sat on many waters which represent people's, nations, tribes and tongues.
But Babylon did.
Babylon in the Old Testament was not Jerusalem, but Jerusalem was a harlot.
We are living in the New Testament and in the book of Revelation that could not care any less about the Old Covenant and its people and places and city that some saints want to hang onto.
Truth7t7
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2014
- 10,856
- 3,275
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Nobody is talking about "Old Testament Israel" as you falsely claim, I'm talking about (Mystery Babylon) and the great city where Jesus was crucified "New Testament Jerusalem", John's Revelation was "After" Calvary (New Testament)
Once Again!
(Where Our Lord Was Crucified) past tense (New Testament Jerusalem)
Jerusalem (The Woman) that (Great City) as seen below, Jerusalem where Jesus Christ was crucified
(Revelation) 17:18AKJV
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
(Revelation) 11:8AKJV
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Last edited:
Truth7t7
Well-Known Member
- Jan 2, 2014
- 10,856
- 3,275
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Pretty hard for "The Beast" of Revelation to have been fulfilled in your Preterist 70AD Roman destruction of Jerusalem, when the very book of Revelation was written in 96AD about 26 years after your claim
When Was The Book Of Revelation Written?
Author: Wayne Jackson, Christian CourierTraditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).
A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.
In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.
External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.
Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.
Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.
The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).
Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.
Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).
Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.
The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.
Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).
Last edited:
Truthnightmare
Well-Known Member
The key note is mother of all harlots… idolatry.
Idolatry existed before Israel.
As noted here….
The picture of the woman, as described, may be regarded as the "drop-curtain." But the initiated are those who will be admitted behind it, and learn "the depths of Satan:" and, behind the scenes in his own great theatre, will learn what Satan's religion means as they "worship the Dragon."
The uninitiated will see only the curtain— the wonderful city. Compare Prov. ix. 13-18, where both are shown and may well be applied to the passage here.
Idolatry was no mere sin into which people gradually sunk; but it was the creation, by Satanic wisdom, of a mighty system, which he intended to us, and to lead up to his own worship.
Nimrod was used as the great founder of this marvellous scheme of Satan. Babylon was his city (Gen. x. 10). Would not Cain's city before the flood answer to the people of that day, the same end as Babylon did afterwards (Gen. iv. 17)? Each would be the capital of their respective idolatrous systems. The words "Cain went out from the presence of the Lord" are very significant. So is the name of Cain's city. He called it "Enoch," which means initiated. 350 The corruption of mankind spoken of in Gen. vi. must have led to abnormal forms, which would account for the half-human, or super-human beings, which became the Nephilim, the Rephaim, and Anakim of Scripture; the Titans of the Greeks. It would account for the worship of Ishtar, Isis, Ashtaroth, and all the abominations of spiritual harlotry.
Similar threads
