Urgent advice required regarding marrying an unbeliever

[Stranger]

Gandhi meditated daily on the Sermon on the Mount and put its teachings into practice.

You said:: “Should we as Christians act on the Sermon on the Mount? No.”

Jesus said: “Not everyone who keeps saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will get into the kingdom from[d] heaven, but only the person who keeps doing the will of my Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn’t we?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who practice evil!’
24 “Therefore, everyone who listens to these messages[f] of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on a rock. 25 The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, but it did not collapse because its foundation was on the rock.
26 “Everyone who keeps on hearing these messages[g] of mine and never puts them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain fell, the floods came, the winds blew and battered that house, and it collapsed—and its collapse was total.” (Mt 7:21-26)

Did Gandhi accept Jesus Chrsit as his Lord and Saviour?

The 'Sermon on the Mount' is Law, not grace. Therefore it would appeal to Gandhi's human reason.

Are you saying I am not a Christian because I don't see the Sermon on the Mount as a law for the Church?

Stranger

 

[junobet]

Did Gandhi accept Jesus Chrsit as his Lord and Saviour?

The 'Sermon on the Mount' is Law, not grace. Therefore it would appeal to Gandhi's human reason.

Are you saying I am not a Christian because I don't see the Sermon on the Mount as a law for the Church?

Stranger

I find it a bit self-contradictory to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, whilst openly refusing to follow His commands.

Imho the Sermon of the Mount just explains in so many words the one command Christians ought to follow: the double-commandment of love. It is indeed not a “law” in that we I can’t force ourselves to love anybody in the way that we can force ourselves to only eat certain Foods, brush our teeth or to go to church every Sunday etc.. Our ability to love God and our fellow-men solely stems from our connection to Jesus Christ. When in union with Him we “do not live according to human nature but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4) All of us stray back into the modes of the old Adam here and there and then we hate our enemies, don't turn the other cheek, don't forgive .... But whenever we do so that is the result of a lack of faith.

As for whether you are a Christian or not: that’s not for me to say. I don’t know you, Stranger, and even if I had known you for your entire life, I would not know you in the way that God knows you. The same goes for Gandhi and everybody else: only God can search our hearts and minds.

 

[Stranger]

I find it a bit self-contradictory to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, whilst openly refusing to follow His commands.

Imho the Sermon of the Mount just explains in so many words the one command Christians ought to follow: the double-commandment of love. It is indeed not a “law” in that we I can’t force ourselves to love anybody in the way that we can force ourselves to only eat certain Foods, brush our teeth or to go to church every Sunday etc.. Our ability to love God and our fellow-men solely stems from our connection to Jesus Christ. When in union with Him we “do not live according to human nature but according to the Spirit.” (Romans 8:4) All of us stray back into the modes of the old Adam here and there and then we hate our enemies, don't turn the other cheek, don't forgive .... But whenever we do so that is the result of a lack of faith.

As for whether you are a Christian or not: that’s not for me to say. I don’t know you, Stranger, and even if I had known you for your entire life, I would not know you in the way that God knows you. The same goes for Gandhi and everybody else: only God can search our hearts and minds.

You do make the Sermon on the Mount a law for the Church because you require it to be followed by Christians. You see it as a rule that Christians are under and should be obeyed.

And, make no mistake, as I have already said, the Sermon is Law. But it is not law for the Church. It is the Law of the Kingdom that Christ came to set up, with Him as the Messiah ruling and reigning in Jerusalem.

Just like the Church is not under the Mosaic Law, neither are we under the Law of the Kingdom.

I agree, our love toward others is a product of being in the Spirit. It is a fruit and not a work.

Didn't God hate Esau? Didn't Christ refuse to forgive the Pharisees? Christ certainly will not turn the other cheek when He returns, will He? Of course when Christ returns that will be a different administration and the world will no longer be under the administration of Grace. But you can see that hatred is just as much a part of God as love is. War is part of God also. As I already noted somewhere else. (Ex.15:3) " The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."

I'm not saying we are to go around hating everyone. But neither do I believe we go around and love everyone. We certainly do love the sistern and brethren in Christ. Note what Paul said of Alexander the coppersmith. (2 Tim. 4:14) " Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works. Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words."

True, only God can know the hearts and minds of men. But can we not know that faith in Christ is the way of salvation? Do we not know how to be born again?

Stranger

 

[junobet]

You do make the Sermon on the Mount a law for the Church because you require it to be followed by Christians. You see it as a rule that Christians are under and should be obeyed.

It’s not me who requires that it is followed but Jesus Christ. Following it is not a ‘law’ like the Mosaic law, but the result of His spirit abiding in us and perfecting us. It’s the transforming power of His love and grace that makes us want to obey Christ’s commandment and that enables us to obey it. (John 15)

And, make no mistake, as I have already said, the Sermon is Law. But it is not law for the Church. It is the Law of the Kingdom that Christ came to set up, with Him as the Messiah ruling and reigning in Jerusalem.

Just like the Church is not under the Mosaic Law, neither are we under the Law of the Kingdom.

So Mt 5:44 is a nice vision for the future and until then we can hate our enemies as much as we like? What unbiblical nonsense! There’ll be no more enemies in the Kingdom of Heaven. No evil can enter into it. We pray that His will be done in heaven and on earth. Christ sowed the seeds for the Kingdom of Heaven in us, and that’s where they should grow. If He is within us, the Kingdom of God is within us (Luke 17:21) and we are under its law right now.

I agree, our love toward others is a product of being in the Spirit. It is a fruit and not a work.

And if one truly is in the Spirit, one will love all others, including one’s enemies.

Didn't God hate Esau?

You didn’t get as far as reading Gen 32-33? Never heard the story of Esau and Jacob reconciling, in which Jacob says to Esau “seeing your face is like seeing the face of God, since you have favorably accepted me. 11 So receive my blessing, which has been sent to you, since God has been gracious to me.”? It’s beautiful!

Didn't Christ refuse to forgive the Pharisees?

He died for their forgiveness as well as for yours. “Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”” (Luke 23:34a)

Christ certainly will not turn the other cheek when He returns, will He? Of course when Christ returns that will be a different administration and the world will no longer be under the administration of Grace. But you can see that hatred is just as much a part of God as love is. War is part of God also. As I already noted somewhere else. (Ex.15:3) " The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name."

I'm not saying we are to go around hating everyone. But neither do I believe we go around and love everyone. We certainly do love the sistern and brethren in Christ. Note what Paul said of Alexander the coppersmith. (2 Tim. 4:14) " Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works. Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words."

True, only God can know the hearts and minds of men. But can we not know that faith in Christ is the way of salvation? Do we not know how to be born again?

Stranger

Being born again is nothing that we can achieve via our own wisdom and strength. It involves more than just accepting some doctrine or the other without question. It means that we let our old selfish, vengeful and hateful self die. That we are being made new.

"17 Therefore this I say and testify in the Lord, that from now on you walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their minds, 18 having their understanding darkened, excluded from the life of God through the ignorance that is within them, due to the hardness of their hearts. 19 Being calloused they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
20 But you did not learn about Christ in this manner, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off the former way of life in the old nature, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 and that you put on the new nature, which was created according to God in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Therefore, putting away lying, let every man speak truthfully with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26 Be angry but do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your anger. 27 Do not give place to the devil. 28 Let him who steals steal no more. Instead, let him labor, working with his hands things which are good, that he may have something to share with him who is in need.
29 Let no unwholesome word proceed out of your mouth, but only that which is good for building up, that it may give grace to the listeners. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you are sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outbursts, and blasphemies, with all malice, be taken away from you. 32 And be kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you." (Eph. 4:21-32)

 

[Stranger]

It’s not me who requires that it is followed but Jesus Christ. Following it is not a ‘law’ like the Mosaic law, but the result of His spirit abiding in us and perfecting us. It’s the transforming power of His love and grace that makes us want to obey Christ’s commandment and that enables us to obey it. (John 15)




So Mt 5:44 is a nice vision for the future and until then we can hate our enemies as much as we like? What unbiblical nonsense! There’ll be no more enemies in the Kingdom of Heaven. No evil can enter into it. We pray that His will be done in heaven and on earth. Christ sowed the seeds for the Kingdom of Heaven in us, and that’s where they should grow. If He is within us, the Kingdom of God is within us (Luke 17:21) and we are under its law right now.



And if one truly is in the Spirit, one will love all others, including one’s enemies.




You didn’t get as far as reading Gen 32-33? Never heard the story of Esau and Jacob reconciling, in which Jacob says to Esau “seeing your face is like seeing the face of God, since you have favorably accepted me. 11 So receive my blessing, which has been sent to you, since God has been gracious to me.”? It’s beautiful!



He died for their forgiveness as well as for yours. “Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”” (Luke 23:34a)


Being born again is nothing that we can achieve via our own wisdom and strength. It involves more than just accepting some doctrine or the other without question. It means that we let our old selfish, vengeful and hateful self die. That we are being made new.

"17 Therefore this I say and testify in the Lord, that from now on you walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their minds, 18 having their understanding darkened, excluded from the life of God through the ignorance that is within them, due to the hardness of their hearts. 19 Being calloused they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
20 But you did not learn about Christ in this manner, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off the former way of life in the old nature, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 and that you put on the new nature, which was created according to God in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Therefore, putting away lying, let every man speak truthfully with his neighbor, for we are members of one another. 26 Be angry but do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your anger. 27 Do not give place to the devil. 28 Let him who steals steal no more. Instead, let him labor, working with his hands things which are good, that he may have something to share with him who is in need.
29 Let no unwholesome word proceed out of your mouth, but only that which is good for building up, that it may give grace to the listeners. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you are sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, wrath, anger, outbursts, and blasphemies, with all malice, be taken away from you. 32 And be kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God in Christ also forgave you." (Eph. 4:21-32)

We, the Church, have the Spirit now. None listening to the Sermon on the Mount had the Holy Spirit as we do. The Sermon on the Mount is not the rule for the Christians or the Church to live under. Every word of it is true. And the believer can see these very things fulfilled in his life or not fulfilled in his life.

I believe the Sermon on the Mount is the law for the 'kingdom of heaven' which now is future. Christ was offering it then. I see the 'kingdom of heaven' as that 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. Christ will have subdued the nations and place Israel as the ruling nation again. (Acts 1:6) "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" When Christ does restore the kingdom to Israel then the laws of the kingdom, found in Matt. 5-7 will be implemented.

I explained in 'Love your enemies' my reply #36 how Israel rejected her King and thus a change was now made in the way the disciples were to act.

Concerning Esau, God was never reconciled to Esau.

Concerning the 'forgiveness' towards the Pharisees, see my reply #7 under the topic 'Unpardonable Sin' in the 'Eschatology and Prophecy' section.

The new birth comes by faith in Christ. And those verses in Ephesians 4 are good verses and a good reminder of how we are to walk in the Spirit. And there is an anger that is wrong, but there is an anger that is right also. Thus my anger should be checked or governed by the Holy Spirit in me. If God is angry at something, I too should be angry at something. If I hate the enemies of God and hate the things God hates, why am I wrong? Again, was David wrong in hating the enemies of God?

Stranger

 

[junobet]

We, the Church, have the Spirit now.

Those of us whose feet are guided “into the way of peace” do (Luke 1:79).

None listening to the Sermon on the Mount had the Holy Spirit as we do. The Sermon on the Mount is not the rule for the Christians or the Church to live under. Every word of it is true. And the believer can see these very things fulfilled in his life or not fulfilled in his life.

The believer will do what the Lord says not out of fear but out of love: “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you are sealed for the day of redemption.” (Eph. 4:30)

I believe the Sermon on the Mount is the law for the 'kingdom of heaven' which now is future. Christ was offering it then. I see the 'kingdom of heaven' as that 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. Christ will have subdued the nations and place Israel as the ruling nation again. (Acts 1:6) "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" When Christ does restore the kingdom to Israel then the laws of the kingdom, found in Matt. 5-7 will be implemented.

I believe we live in the church-age, that Christ reigns right now using the church to work His vineyard and prepare the way to His second coming when He will judge. We prepare the way by being the light of the world, by giving witness of Him by imitating our Lord: His love, humility and self-sacrifice.
This is Christ’s actual answer to the question in Acts 1:6: “He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:7)

But I’m interested: so in your idea of the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth there are still going to be enemies, people who slap you on the right cheek, people with adulterous thoughts, people who hunger and thirst for righteousness? As far as I know most people believing in a Millennial Kingdom think it’s going to be absolutely righteous. And I had – maybe naively so - supposed that most think that the Sermon of the Mount tells us how to stick to the narrow road that gets us there.
So sorry: I see no rhyme nor reason in your hermeneutics other than that it is led by a deep desire to justify not following the Lord’s clear command to not only love your friends, like the heathens do, but also your enemies as His followers should.

I explained in 'Love your enemies' my reply #36 how Israel rejected her King and thus a change was now made in the way the disciples were to act.

Concerning Esau, God was never reconciled to Esau.

Concerning the 'forgiveness' towards the Pharisees, see my reply #7 under the topic 'Unpardonable Sin' in the 'Eschatology and Prophecy' section.

The new birth comes by faith in Christ. And those verses in Ephesians 4 are good verses and a good reminder of how we are to walk in the Spirit. And there is an anger that is wrong, but there is an anger that is right also. Thus my anger should be checked or governed by the Holy Spirit in me. If God is angry at something, I too should be angry at something. If I hate the enemies of God and hate the things God hates, why am I wrong? Again, was David wrong in hating the enemies of God?

Stranger

[SIZE=medium]It is wrong to randomly pick Bible verses that seem to justify one’s very own hate and anger. We all were enemies of God and full of sin, and yet God loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son to save us. As for the Spirit and the new birth:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Beloved, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (…) We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]7 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]8[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] (…)” In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]10 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]11 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Beloved, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Saviour of the world[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE][SIZE=small]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium](…)“ (1 John 4)[/SIZE]

 

[Stranger]

Those of us whose feet are guided “into the way of peace” do (Luke 1:79).


The believer will do what the Lord says not out of fear but out of love: “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you are sealed for the day of redemption.” (Eph. 4:30)


I believe we live in the church-age, that Christ reigns right now using the church to work His vineyard and prepare the way to His second coming when He will judge. We prepare the way by being the light of the world, by giving witness of Him by imitating our Lord: His love, humility and self-sacrifice.
This is Christ’s actual answer to the question in Acts 1:6: “He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:7)

But I’m interested: so in your idea of the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth there are still going to be enemies, people who slap you on the right cheek, people with adulterous thoughts, people who hunger and thirst for righteousness? As far as I know most people believing in a Millennial Kingdom think it’s going to be absolutely righteous. And I had – maybe naively so - supposed that most think that the Sermon of the Mount tells us how to stick to the narrow road that gets us there.
So sorry: I see no rhyme nor reason in your hermeneutics other than that it is led by a deep desire to justify not following the Lord’s clear command to not only love your friends, like the heathens do, but also your enemies as His followers should.


[SIZE=medium]It is wrong to randomly pick Bible verses that seem to justify one’s very own hate and anger. We all were enemies of God and full of sin, and yet God loved us so much that He sent His only begotten Son to save us. As for the Spirit and the new birth:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Beloved, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (…) We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]7 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]8[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] (…)” In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]10 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]11 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Beloved, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]13 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]14 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Saviour of the world[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE][SIZE=small]15 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]16 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium](…)“ (1 John 4)[/SIZE]

That's right. Christ told the disciples in Acts 1:7 that it wasn't for them to know the time. He didn't say the kingdom would not be restored to Israel.

Those who enter the kingdom after the tribulation period will be the survivors left on earth. And they will be the saved. But they still have the sin nature. And they will still bear children. Some of these may be children of God, but some will not be. Jesus Christ is ruling in righteousness but man during this reign still has the sin nature.

Feel free to use verses that you believe support your opinion. And did you read my reply #36 in 'Love your enemies'? Did you not see a change there?

Stranger

 

[Born_Again]

This is off topic. Both of you stop now.