1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

wanting everyone's opinion...

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by goldy, Dec 10, 2008.

  1. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

    Messages:
    5,111
    Likes Received:
    231
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Kriss, IT'S NOT ABOUT RIGHT AND WRONG. IT'S ABOUT RESPECT AND UNDERSTANDING. AFTER ALL, WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF CHRIST!!!!
    I'm not so much using this as a commentary of the Catholic Church as I am a commentary on what you said.II John 1:9-11
    Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
    It's all about being right in the sense that it's all about falling inline with the Word of God.
     
  2. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    2
    hey goldy... just wanted you to know that I read it....the Roman Catholic apologist writes "Well, we’re good up until Question #4. The first thing I do whenever someone asks me this question is to immediately ask them: “Where is that question in the Bible?” Where does Jesus, or Paul, or Peter, or James, or anyone else ask someone, “If you died tonight do you know for sure that you would go to Heaven?” Ask them to give you book, chapter, and verse. They can’t do it, because that question is not in the Bible. In other words, these “Bible–only” Christians have made up some sort of salvation test that is nowhere found in the Bible…it is a man–made invention."The problem here is this, those who advocate sola scriptura do not teach "bible alone". The only persons who do this are uninformed, though I am sure well meaning fundamentalists who misunderstand what sola scriptura itself teaches. It is best to get a definition of sola scriptura from some of those who coined the term, here is the relevant area from the Westminster Confession of Faith; Of Scripture; VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture..." In this specific case your RC apologist reveals a fundamental (pardon the pun) misunderstanding of sola scriptura, then asks a question/makes a statement based on that very misunderstanding, thus creating a straw man. Just because a certain question is not itself expressly asked in Scripture does not therefore make it unscriptural.As far as assurance of one's salvation is concerned, the Beloved Disciple said we can experience certitude in regard to our salvation: 1 John 3:19-22 (ESV) 19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him."and1 John 4:10-13 (ESV) 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit." Paul himself also said Romans 8:31-39 (ESV) 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.In Paul's admonition (to not think that you stand lest you fall) he is chiding the Corinthians for what their certainty in regard to their relationship with God is based on, not that they have security per se. Paul is too clear elsewhere that believers are absolutely secure in their salvation. The Corinthians placed their hope.... not in Christ alone and His work on the Cross..... but rather in who they themselves were.... "So he who thinks he stands, let him be careful not to fall.Here is an aphorism that anyone can take to heart. Indeed, we frequently choose this Scripture passage to tell someone to avoid misplaced self-reliance and inordinate pride.With the word so Paul concludes his survey of Israel's history and applies its lessons to the Corinthians. He directs his application to all the readers but especially to those people who proudly think that they have the freedom in Christ to do anything or to go anywhere. He implicitly refers to the Corinthians who visit pagan temples (8:10). These so-called strong believers should take note of the history lessons from the Old Testament, for in these lessons God is addressing them. In effect, Paul is drawing the people of Israel and the Corinthian Christian together through these Old Testament lessons.The people of Israel took pride in their standing before God. They alone were God's people, and they thought that God would always be on their side. They felt spiritually secure because God had made a covenant with their father Abraham, a covenant he promised to keep for generations to come (Gen. 17:7). Yet the Scriptures relate that because of their disobedience to God and his Word, untold descendants of Abraham fell in the desert (see v. 5; Rom. 11:20). Says the writer of Hebrews, "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness" (Heb. 3:12-13).The word fall points to a false security. When Paul uses this word, he refers to those Corinthians who place their trust in either church membership or baptism and communion but not in Jesus Christ. These Corinthians rely on their own insights and the "wisdom" derived from fellow men (3:18). With hearts that are not right with God, they are self-confident. Instead, Paul advises that they with childlike confidence are to trust in God from day to day. Their spiritual security should come from true faith that relies on God to fulfill his promises.—Baker New Testament Commentary"The Corinthians felt quite sure on this vital point and even prided themselves on what they deemed the fullest kind of evidence for their standing, namely their "knowledge" and their Christian "right." —Lenski New Testament CommentarySo it is totally true that God is our judge, and God the judge looks at all those clothed in the Son's righteousness as justified, and all those to whom God has judged and granted this justification, that is, all those to whom this righteousness is applied, are regenerated, saved by the grace and mercy of God. And God the judge is the very same as Jesus the judge, and we also know that since Jesus is God, that His will and the Father's never conflict with one another, and since they are in perfect harmony with one another, God the Father will always answer Jesus' prayers. Since Jesus asks the Father that all of His children would be saved, the Father will in fact grant this request: John 17:20-24 (ESV) 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. also see http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1415
    What I would say in response to the question: “Which sin of ours doesn’t Christ fully atone for,” is this: “The unrepented one.” Now, Christ did indeed atone for all of our sins, repented and unrepented; however, the atonement is not applied to the unrepented sins. So turn around and ask your questioner this: “Does Christ forgive YOUR unrepented sins?” Now this could present quite a problem to your questioner, because this person, based on the fact that they asked you this series of questions, undoubtedly believes not only in salvation by faith alone, but also in the dogma of once saved, always saved. In other words, they believe that once they’ve accepted Jesus, they are going to Heaven no matter what they do after that. So, because they believe in once saved, always saved, they have to believe that Christ forgives their sins whether they repent of them or not. Yet, if they answer your question with a, “Yes,” Christ does indeed forgive their unrepented sins, they are flying in the face of Scripture: 1 John 1:9, “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” “If,” we confess our sins. If we repent. If we don’t, we are not forgiven. If we are not forgiven, we are not saved. This can also be very clearly seen in Jesus’ words to the seven churches in Rev 2 and 3.
    To start with, there is a logical fallacy involved in his reasoning. The bible does say that if we repent or our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The fallacy occurs in assuming that the “if” is an absolute conditional, but its not. If the Scriptures said “if and only if you repent of your sins, God will forgive you” then yes, repentance would be a condition upon which forgiveness would be based. As it is, this is just a promise to us that if we do repent, God will forgive us. Its not a promise that if we DO NOT repent, He will not forgive us.Secondly on this point, no one… no one…. Is able to repent of every single sin they ever commit, because many of our sins are sins of the mind, fleeting thoughts that happen so quickly, and then disappear so quickly that we forget about them, and thus, we never ask forgiveness for them. If our salvation was based on our ability to perfectly recall and repent of all our sins, then 2 things entail: 1) no one would be saved, because no one can perfectly repent of all their sins and 2) salvation would be based on works, not grace and mercy.Nest he says
    Now, as in any of these situations, they will have undoubtedly have a response…words will come out of their mouths. But, I can guarantee you that it is not a response that will make much scriptural sense. So, no matter what they say in response to your question, examine it very carefully because it will not be consistent either with Scripture, or with one of their earlier statements. There will be a disconnect…an inconsistency…in what they say, guaranteed. You just have to pay attention and just keep coming back to your question until they have given you a logically and scripturally–consistent answer.
    Since no one is omniscient, there is no way he can guarantee that every single answer ever provided will not make any scriptural sense, or that a given answer will be inconsistent. It might be the case, but there is no way that he should be saying that he knows this for a fact ahead of time. Secondly, I do not see a disconnect in my answer at all. So his little journey into trying to see the future has already failed.
    You can conclude by telling your questioner that you believe you were saved by God’s grace alone, but that now that you are saved, in order to run the race to the end, you need to cooperate with God’s grace in your l ife and produce good fruit, or you will be like the branches of the vine in John 15:1–6 that get cut off from the vine, thrown into the fire, and burned. And ask them if they believe they will remain a branch of the vine if they do not produce good fruit. See what they say…
    1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (ESV) 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”See that? Our sins will be burned up.... yet we ourselves will be saved....Yes we are sanctified by cooperating with God’s grace as one is then growing progressively more an more like Christ throughout their lives. However, no one lives this out perfectly. And if every time a person sins they lose their salvation, because they forget to repent of it for example, then manifestly no one will be saved, because no one possess the ability to perfectly repent of all their sins. What Rome does is to confuse sanctification with justification, and that is why they teach a false gospel. A persons sanctification has to do with their growing in holiness, not their salvation. I hope this helps….Blessings,ken
     
  3. goldy

    goldy New Member

    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Christina;65830)
    Well we can certainly agree to disagree but your statement about Catholics not believing church and Bible are separate is not what I said nor is it what I believe.. I said they dont teach how to understand how God teaches, So you can discern for yourself what is true or not.. they teach you to believe what they say it says is true... You are not seeing the problem with this because you have accepted they are right ... Its this fact I have no respect for .... Not whether or not they are right ...The fact they inject themselves between You and God ... by teaching they will tell you what God says/means ... That's not necessary.. if they taught you how God teaches and they are right as claimed there should be no problem... So why is it they dont tell/teach you this..unless they have something to hide.. No answer required this is something you should be asking yourself ..
    Since I believe with all my heart that the Catholic Church is the visible Church that Jesus Christ established (a whole different topic alltogether), then I do take their word for it when it comes to interpretation. Read 1Timothy 3:15 to see what the Word of God says about this. This is just one of many examples, by the way. You said that the Church injects themselves between me and God. That's your opinion, and I disagree. The Church bridges that gap between me and God.To use an analogy: If Jesus Christ was a city, then the Catholic Church (through sacred scripture and sacred tradition) is the main highway leading to that glorious City.
     
  4. goldy

    goldy New Member

    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    0
    (epistemaniac;65841)
    hey goldy... just wanted you to know that I read it....the Roman Catholic apologist writes "Well, we’re good up until Question #4. The first thing I do whenever someone asks me this question is to immediately ask them: “Where is that question in the Bible?” Where does Jesus, or Paul, or Peter, or James, or anyone else ask someone, “If you died tonight do you know for sure that you would go to Heaven?” Ask them to give you book, chapter, and verse. They can’t do it, because that question is not in the Bible. In other words, these “Bible–only” Christians have made up some sort of salvation test that is nowhere found in the Bible…it is a man–made invention."The problem here is this, those who advocate sola scriptura do not teach "bible alone". The only persons who do this are uninformed, though I am sure well meaning fundamentalists who misunderstand what sola scriptura itself teaches. It is best to get a definition of sola scriptura from some of those who coined the term, here is the relevant area from the Westminster Confession of Faith; Of Scripture; VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture..." In this specific case your RC apologist reveals a fundamental (pardon the pun) misunderstanding of sola scriptura, then asks a question/makes a statement based on that very misunderstanding, thus creating a straw man. Just because a certain question is not itself expressly asked in Scripture does not therefore make it unscriptural.As far as assurance of one's salvation is concerned, the Beloved Disciple said we can experience certitude in regard to our salvation: 1 John 3:19-22 (ESV) 19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him."and1 John 4:10-13 (ESV) 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit." Paul himself also said Romans 8:31-39 (ESV) 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.In Paul's admonition (to not think that you stand lest you fall) he is chiding the Corinthians for what their certainty in regard to their relationship with God is based on, not that they have security per se. Paul is too clear elsewhere that believers are absolutely secure in their salvation. The Corinthians placed their hope.... not in Christ alone and His work on the Cross..... but rather in who they themselves were.... "So he who thinks he stands, let him be careful not to fall.Here is an aphorism that anyone can take to heart. Indeed, we frequently choose this Scripture passage to tell someone to avoid misplaced self-reliance and inordinate pride.With the word so Paul concludes his survey of Israel's history and applies its lessons to the Corinthians. He directs his application to all the readers but especially to those people who proudly think that they have the freedom in Christ to do anything or to go anywhere. He implicitly refers to the Corinthians who visit pagan temples (8:10). These so-called strong believers should take note of the history lessons from the Old Testament, for in these lessons God is addressing them. In effect, Paul is drawing the people of Israel and the Corinthian Christian together through these Old Testament lessons.The people of Israel took pride in their standing before God. They alone were God's people, and they thought that God would always be on their side. They felt spiritually secure because God had made a covenant with their father Abraham, a covenant he promised to keep for generations to come (Gen. 17:7). Yet the Scriptures relate that because of their disobedience to God and his Word, untold descendants of Abraham fell in the desert (see v. 5; Rom. 11:20). Says the writer of Hebrews, "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness" (Heb. 3:12-13).The word fall points to a false security. When Paul uses this word, he refers to those Corinthians who place their trust in either church membership or baptism and communion but not in Jesus Christ. These Corinthians rely on their own insights and the "wisdom" derived from fellow men (3:18). With hearts that are not right with God, they are self-confident. Instead, Paul advises that they with childlike confidence are to trust in God from day to day. Their spiritual security should come from true faith that relies on God to fulfill his promises.—Baker New Testament Commentary"The Corinthians felt quite sure on this vital point and even prided themselves on what they deemed the fullest kind of evidence for their standing, namely their "knowledge" and their Christian "right." —Lenski New Testament CommentarySo it is totally true that God is our judge, and God the judge looks at all those clothed in the Son's righteousness as justified, and all those to whom God has judged and granted this justification, that is, all those to whom this righteousness is applied, are regenerated, saved by the grace and mercy of God. And God the judge is the very same as Jesus the judge, and we also know that since Jesus is God, that His will and the Father's never conflict with one another, and since they are in perfect harmony with one another, God the Father will always answer Jesus' prayers. Since Jesus asks the Father that all of His children would be saved, the Father will in fact grant this request: John 17:20-24 (ESV) 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. also see http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1415To start with, there is a logical fallacy involved in his reasoning. The bible does say that if we repent or our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The fallacy occurs in assuming that the “if” is an absolute conditional, but its not. If the Scriptures said “if and only if you repent of your sins, God will forgive you” then yes, repentance would be a condition upon which forgiveness would be based. As it is, this is just a promise to us that if we do repent, God will forgive us. Its not a promise that if we DO NOT repent, He will not forgive us.Secondly on this point, no one… no one…. Is able to repent of every single sin they ever commit, because many of our sins are sins of the mind, fleeting thoughts that happen so quickly, and then disappear so quickly that we forget about them, and thus, we never ask forgiveness for them. If our salvation was based on our ability to perfectly recall and repent of all our sins, then 2 things entail: 1) no one would be saved, because no one can perfectly repent of all their sins and 2) salvation would be based on works, not grace and mercy.Nest he says Since no one is omniscient, there is no way he can guarantee that every single answer ever provided will not make any scriptural sense, or that a given answer will be inconsistent. It might be the case, but there is no way that he should be saying that he knows this for a fact ahead of time. Secondly, I do not see a disconnect in my answer at all. So his little journey into trying to see the future has already failed. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (ESV) 13 each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.”See that? Our sins will be burned up.... yet we ourselves will be saved....Yes we are sanctified by cooperating with God’s grace as one is then growing progressively more an more like Christ throughout their lives. However, no one lives this out perfectly. And if every time a person sins they lose their salvation, because they forget to repent of it for example, then manifestly no one will be saved, because no one possess the ability to perfectly repent of all their sins. What Rome does is to confuse sanctification with justification, and that is why they teach a false gospel. A persons sanctification has to do with their growing in holiness, not their salvation. I hope this helps….Blessings,ken
    Thanks for the response. You ought to write to this man regarding these answers. I'm not going to give you a long answer to all of this. I do have a quick question regarding 1 Cor.3: 13-15. Did you know that this is one of the verses that Catholics use to defend our belief in Purgatory? I would agree that our sins will be burned up. But we have to go to a place where these sins are burned up. Now where would be a place that we would suffer loss and still be saved? Is it hell? No, we can't be saved if we're in hell. Is it heaven? No, we don't suffer loss in heaven. Must be some place else.......One other thing: We don't believe that we lose our salvation every time we sin. But we believe that we must repent of our sins and make atonement for them. We also don't believe that we lose our salvation if we "forget" to confess our sins and therefore repent of them. We believe that if a person commits a mortal sin (murder, adultery, etc.), then 2things must happen for the sin to be mortal (completely cutting ourselves off from God): Full knowledge and full consent of the will. If we choose to commit these sins and refuse to repent of them, then yes we believe that we can lose our salvation at that point.God bless and write to www.biblechristiansociety.com if you ever have any questions for this apologist
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    Well, opinions are pretty much worthless, and there is no scripture whatsoever will you or I find that Lord Jesus Christ is the "founder" of the Catholic Church, nor Protestant churches, nor religion. Period.(goldy;65854)
    (Christina;65830)
    ...The fact they inject themselves between You and God ... by teaching they will tell you what God says/means ... That's not necessary...
    ... You said that the Church injects themselves between me and God. That's your opinion, and I disagree. The Church bridges that gap between me and God. ...Well, that's sad, cause the bridge I got has no literal church building. My bridge, which is and who is the bridge between me and God? It's Lord Jesus Christ.I Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
     
  6. goldy

    goldy New Member

    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Jordan;65859)
    Well, opinions are pretty much worthless, and there is no scripture whatsoever will you or I find that Lord Jesus Christ is the "founder" of the Catholic Church, nor Protestant churches, nor religion. Period.Well, that's sad, cause the bridge I got has no literal church building. My bridge, which is and who is the bridge between me and God? It's Lord Jesus Christ.I Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    Thanks for being so judgmental:rolleyes:No, the bridge you have is the Bible and the Bible alone.....and your own private interpretation. This is a man-made doctrine that didn't come along for over 1500 years after Christ walked the earth.
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

    Messages:
    4,886
    Likes Received:
    4
    (goldy;65860)
    (Jordan;65859)
    Well, opinions are pretty much worthless, and there is no scripture whatsoever will you or I find that Lord Jesus Christ is the "founder" of the Catholic Church, nor Protestant churches, nor religion. Period.Well, that's sad, cause the bridge I got has no literal church building. My bridge, which is and who is the bridge between me and God? It's Lord Jesus Christ.I Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
    Thanks for being so judgmental:rolleyes:No, the bridge you have is the Bible and the Bible alone.....and your own private interpretation. This is a man-made doctrine that didn't come along for over 1500 years after Christ walked the earth.That wasn't even a judgmental statement. If telling you the Truth is judgmental, so be it. And obviously everybody can can see you who truly what you are here. Making false accusations and sitting in denial like everyday.
     
  8. Alpha and Omega

    Alpha and Omega New Member

    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    0
    (goldy;65858)
    Thanks for the response. You ought to write to this man regarding these answers. I'm not going to give you a long answer to all of this. I do have a quick question regarding 1 Cor.3: 13-15. Did you know that this is one of the verses that Catholics use to defend our belief in Purgatory? I would agree that our sins will be burned up. But we have to go to a place where these sins are burned up. Now where would be a place that we would suffer loss and still be saved? Is it hell? No, we can't be saved if we're in hell. Is it heaven? No, we don't suffer loss in heaven. Must be some place else.......One other thing: We don't believe that we lose our salvation every time we sin. But we believe that we must repent of our sins and make atonement for them. We also don't believe that we lose our salvation if we "forget" to confess our sins and therefore repent of them. We believe that if a person commits a mortal sin (murder, adultery, etc.), then 2things must happen for the sin to be mortal (completely cutting ourselves off from God): Full knowledge and full consent of the will. If we choose to commit these sins and refuse to repent of them, then yes we believe that we can lose our salvation at that point.God bless and write to www.biblechristiansociety.com if you ever have any questions for this apologist
    The problem with purgatory is that it suggests that Jesus did not finish what he started.If we have to go someplace to cleanse our sins then why did Jesus do that for us?Purgatory has zero biblical credibility and Jesus even said.....When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 19-30)
     
  9. goldy

    goldy New Member

    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Alpha and Omega;65862)
    The problem with purgatory is that it suggests that Jesus did not finish what he started.If we have to go someplace to cleanse our sins then why did Jesus do that for us?Purgatory has zero biblical credibility and Jesus even said.....When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. (John 19-30)
    I disagree with you here. Just because someone goes to purgatory doesn't diminish what Christ did for us in the least. I disagree with your interpretation regarding John 19:30
     
  10. goldy

    goldy New Member

    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Jordan;65861)
    That wasn't even a judgmental statement. If telling you the Truth is judgmental, so be it. And obviously everybody can can see you who truly what you are here. Making false accusations and sitting in denial like everyday.
    HUH????????Let me ask you a very direct question Jordan, and please be honest: How much have you truly, TRULY studied what the Catholic Church teaches. Be honest. Because after reading the posts that you have read on here regarding my church, there are only two possibilities: 1. You are completely ignorant of true Church teaching2. You are a liarI'm surely hoping that it's number 1. Give me the truth brother.......Which is it?
     
  11. Alpha and Omega

    Alpha and Omega New Member

    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    0
    (goldy;65864)
    HUH????????Let me ask you a very direct question Jordan, and please be honest: How much have you truly, TRULY studied what the Catholic Church teaches. Be honest. Because after reading the posts that you have read on here regarding my church, there are only two possibilities: 1. You are completely ignorant of true Church teaching2. You are a liarI'm surely hoping that it's number 1. Give me the truth brother.......Which is it?
    Who cares what they teach. They are MEN!It only matters what God teaches! Don't call someone ignorant or a liar if you can't see through your own blindfoldLet them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (Matthew 15:14)
     
  12. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    2
    (goldy;65860)
    Thanks for being so judgmental:rolleyes:No, the bridge you have is the Bible and the Bible alone.....and your own private interpretation. This is a man-made doctrine that didn't come along for over 1500 years after Christ walked the earth.
    I think you have it backwards.... read Keith Mathison's book "The Shape of Sola Scriptura", he proves, using history, and documents from the Roman Catholic Church, that the early church adhered to sola scriptura, it was not until much much later that the Roman Catholic church began to elevate their traditions to the same level of authority and "inspiredness" as the Scriptures.blessings,ken
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

    Messages:
    10,900
    Likes Received:
    81
    (goldy;65854)
    Since I believe with all my heart that the Catholic Church is the visible Church that Jesus Christ established (a whole different topic alltogether), then I do take their word for it when it comes to interpretation. Read 1Timothy 3:15 to see what the Word of God says about this. This is just one of many examples, by the way. You said that the Church injects themselves between me and God. That's your opinion, and I disagree. The Church bridges that gap between me and God.To use an analogy: If Jesus Christ was a city, then the Catholic Church (through sacred scripture and sacred tradition) is the main highway leading to that glorious City.
    This is exactly what I mean with every word you prove my point ? The Word was made flesh... first was the Word you dare to talk to me about respect? respect is a two way street you condemn us for putting the Word of God .. before the church of men ... That's called brainwashed I could show you in scripture but its a waste of time What would the Word of God mean to you, against your church of men. And injecting themselves between you and God is exactly what they do ... You can deny it all you like but its true. You prove it daily by putting your Church doctrine before Gods Word ..It maybe your bridge but God never says we need a bridge, its a bridge to no-where ..he in fact says come to me. He doesn't say stop by your priest first however...
     
  14. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    2
    (goldy;65858)
    Thanks for the response. You ought to write to this man regarding these answers. I'm not going to give you a long answer to all of this. I do have a quick question regarding 1 Cor.3: 13-15. Did you know that this is one of the verses that Catholics use to defend our belief in Purgatory? I would agree that our sins will be burned up. But we have to go to a place where these sins are burned up. Now where would be a place that we would suffer loss and still be saved? Is it hell? No, we can't be saved if we're in hell. Is it heaven? No, we don't suffer loss in heaven. Must be some place else.......One other thing: We don't believe that we lose our salvation every time we sin. But we believe that we must repent of our sins and make atonement for them. We also don't believe that we lose our salvation if we "forget" to confess our sins and therefore repent of them. We believe that if a person commits a mortal sin (murder, adultery, etc.), then 2things must happen for the sin to be mortal (completely cutting ourselves off from God): Full knowledge and full consent of the will. If we choose to commit these sins and refuse to repent of them, then yes we believe that we can lose our salvation at that point.God bless and write to www.biblechristiansociety.com if you ever have any questions for this apologist
    yes, I knew that..... I believe purgatory is an unbiblical teaching, and since I believe that salvation is attained by works, namely the works of Jesus Christ, there is nothing i can do to add to meritorious nature of those works, and to do so is an insult to Christ, there is therefore no need for a doctrine like purgatory. When God looks at me, he sees me clothed in the righteousness of Christ, how could he send me someone place to purify me when I am already considered justified before Him? I don't need Mary to intercede for me, I don't need the saints, I don't need purgatory, all I need is Jesus Christ....Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee; Let the water and the blood, From Thy wounded side which flowed, Be of sin the double cure, Save from wrath and make me pure. Not the labor of my hands Can fulfill Thy law’s demands; Could my zeal no respite know, Could my tears forever flow, All for sin could not atone; Thou must save, and Thou alone.Nothing in my hand I bring, Simply to Thy cross I cling; Naked, come to Thee for dress; Helpless, look to Thee for grace; Foul, I to the fountain fly; Wash me, Savior, or I die.While I draw this fleeting breath, When my eyes shall close in death, When I rise to worlds unknown, And behold Thee on Thy throne, Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in Thee. (Augustis Toplady)
     
  15. goldy

    goldy New Member

    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    0
    (epistemaniac;65866)
    I think you have it backwards.... read Keith Mathison's book "The Shape of Sola Scriptura", he proves, using history, and documents from the Roman Catholic Church, that the early church adhered to sola scriptura, it was not until much much later that the Roman Catholic church began to elevate their traditions to the same level of authority and "inspiredness" as the Scriptures.blessings,ken
    Ken,So you are going to go off of some guy's book to prove the Catholic Church wrong? Do you think Jesus just passed out Bibles to the disciples after He ascended to Heaven? How were matters of faith and morals settled in...... say the year 77 AD? Which came first, the Church or the Bible? Did you ever stop to think about how Christianity began?
     
  16. goldy

    goldy New Member

    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    0
    (Christina;65867)
    This is exactly what I mean with every word you prove my point ? The Word was made flesh... first was the Word you dare to talk to me about respect? respect is a two way street you condemn us for putting the Word of God .. before the church of men ... That's called brainwashed I could show you in scripture but its a waste of time What would the Word of God mean to you, against your church of men. And injecting themselves between you and God is exactly what they do ... You can deny it all you like but its true. You prove it daily by putting your Church doctrine before Gods Word ..It maybe your bridge but God never says we need a bridge, its a bridge to no-where ..he in fact says come to me. He doesn't say stop by your priest first however...
    I simply used an analogy about the bridge KrissDid I disrespect you in any way?Please don't call me brainwashed Just stop......As I've said for the umpteenth time, and I'll say it really slowly: I....AGREE.....WITH....EVERY....SINGLE.....WORD......IN......THE......BIBLEI just don't agree with your interpretations of many of the passages. YOU DON'T HAVE TO AGREE.......JUST RESPECT MY OPINION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  17. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    2
    (goldy;65854)
    Since I believe with all my heart that the Catholic Church is the visible Church that Jesus Christ established (a whole different topic alltogether), then I do take their word for it when it comes to interpretation. Read 1Timothy 3:15 to see what the Word of God says about this. This is just one of many examples, by the way. You said that the Church injects themselves between me and God. That's your opinion, and I disagree. The Church bridges that gap between me and God.To use an analogy: If Jesus Christ was a city, then the Catholic Church (through sacred scripture and sacred tradition) is the main highway leading to that glorious City.
    the problem is, they do not all agree amongst themselves as to the right interpretation of every scripture.... that is why there are Dominicans, Augustinians. Jesuits, Benedictines, etc etc.... there has been MUCH infighting amongst these groups throughout Roman Catholic history... in fact it is a fascinating lesson in history that led to Rome's elevation of tradition to the same level as Scripture, and in particular, which led to the doctrine of papal infallibility...... it was largely a dispute within the Franciscans order (the "community" versus the "Spirituals") who believed that they (the Spirituals) and they only were living "true Christian lives" and this was based on their lives of avowed poverty, and they had to go outside of the Scriptures to Pope Nicolas III to give sanction to their claims, much he did, much to the dismay of others in the church... but Pope John XXII revoked this doctrine.... the Franciscans defended their position buy citing Pope Nicolas but Pope John would not have any previous Pope's mandates infringe upon his own sovereignty and authority... he issued a Bull saying that the doctrine of the Franciscans which said that Christ and the Apostles did not own any property amongst themselves was heretical... the Franciscans again referred to the earlier Pope's ruling and said that Pope John XXIII was the one teaching heresy!!! LOL... Pope John clearly taught against papal infallibility, it was the group of dissident friars that was attempting to invoke papal infallibility in support of their doctrine of poverty. Pope John wrote saying that the "father of lies" ad led them (the friars) to teach "what teh Roman pontiffs have once defined in faith and morals with the key of knowledge stands so immutably that it is not permitted to a successor to revoke it". (The Shape of Sola Scriptura, Keith Mathison, p61) You can read this very interesting story yourself as this book is on Google books in it's entirety....blessings,ken
     
  18. epistemaniac

    epistemaniac New Member

    Messages:
    219
    Likes Received:
    2
    (goldy;65869)
    Ken,So you are going to go off of some guy's book to prove the Catholic Church wrong? Do you think Jesus just passed out Bibles to the disciples after He ascended to Heaven? How were matters of faith and morals settled in...... say the year 77 AD? Which came first, the Church or the Bible? Did you ever stop to think about how Christianity began?
    you are going off what some guy told another guy who told another guy who told another guy.... you are in no position to criticize me.... secondly, this is not just what 'some guy wrote", this book is backed up by history and makes use of Roman Catholic sources, as well as general history.... I challenge you to read it for yourself, unless you are too afraid... unless your faith in Rome is so shaky that you do not think it could take the stress of such a prolonged, sustained rebuttal... I for one could never allow my faith to be in the men of the Roman Catholic church after reading it... but maybe that is what gives you some personal subjective comfort.... you don't have to think for yourself this way, do you? You can just go and see what your church says about a certain subject, and turn your brain off and just parrot what they say after them. Very convenient, but very irresponsible. No one goes to heaven riding on someone else's coattails... you will stand before God one day alone, Rome does not stand there in your place... and you will have to answer God, and there you will have to show your righteous deeds and there you will find out if your righteous works merit heaven. What you will find out, is that they don't. Only faith in Christ Jesus' righteousness saves. The bible is very clear, works do not save. Galatians 2:16 (ESV) yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Faith in Rome doesn't save. Only Jesus does. blessings,ken
     
  19. goldy

    goldy New Member

    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    0
    (epistemaniac;65874)
    the problem is, they do not all agree amongst themselves as to the right interpretation of every scripture.... that is why there are Dominicans, Augustinians. Jesuits, Benedictines, etc etc.... there has been MUCH infighting amongst these groups throughout Roman Catholic history... in fact it is a fascinating lesson in history that led to Rome's elevation of tradition to the same level as Scripture, and in particular, which led to the doctrine of papal infallibility...... it was largely a dispute within the Franciscans order (the "community" versus the "Spirituals") who believed that they (the Spirituals) and they only were living "true Christian lives" and this was based on their lives of avowed poverty, and they had to go outside of the Scriptures to Pope Nicolas III to give sanction to their claims, much he did, much to the dismay of others in the church... but Pope John XXII revoked this doctrine.... the Franciscans defended their position buy citing Pope Nicolas but Pope John would not have any previous Pope's mandates infringe upon his own sovereignty and authority... he issued a Bull saying that the doctrine of the Franciscans which said that Christ and the Apostles did not own any property amongst themselves was heretical... the Franciscans again referred to the earlier Pope's ruling and said that Pope John XXIII was the one teaching heresy!!! LOL... Pope John clearly taught against papal infallibility, it was the group of dissident friars that was attempting to invoke papal infallibility in support of their doctrine of poverty. Pope John wrote saying that the "father of lies" ad led them (the friars) to teach "what teh Roman pontiffs have once defined in faith and morals with the key of knowledge stands so immutably that it is not permitted to a successor to revoke it". (The Shape of Sola Scriptura, Keith Mathison, p61) You can read this very interesting story yourself as this book is on Google books in it's entirety....blessings,ken
    Sure, there may be bickering going on within the Church. But we're all still under one roof. I once heard this analogy:Imagine two big fields: On one field, you have thousands upon thousands of tents all using the same book, but none of them can seem to agree with anyone else in all the other tents (Protestantism)On another field, you have a huge mansion. There are many brothers and sisters under this one roof, and they are bickering about small matters here and there. But they remain under this roof and they all have the same papa who keeps their family strong and shepherds his family (Catholicism)Be careful with this book you are reading. What is Mathison's background? Where does he get his information for this book? Are his sources truly reliable? I've heard it once said, "Millions of people hate the Catholic Church for what they THINK it believes. But there are but a small few who hate the Catholic Church for what it TRULY believes.
     
  20. goldy

    goldy New Member

    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    0
    (epistemaniac;65875)
    you are going off what some guy told another guy who told another guy who told another guy.... you are in no position to criticize me.... secondly, this is not just what 'some guy wrote", this book is backed up by history and makes use of Roman Catholic sources, as well as general history.... I challenge you to read it for yourself, unless you are too afraid... unless your faith in Rome is so shaky that you do not think it could take the stress of such a prolonged, sustained rebuttal... I for one could never allow my faith to be in the men of the Roman Catholic church after reading it... but maybe that is what gives you some personal subjective comfort.... you don't have to think for yourself this way, do you? You can just go and see what your church says about a certain subject, and turn your brain off and just parrot what they say after them. Very convenient, but very irresponsible. No one goes to heaven riding on someone else's coattails... you will stand before God one day alone, Rome does not stand there in your place... and you will have to answer God, and there you will have to show your righteous deeds and there you will find out if your righteous works merit heaven. What you will find out, is that they don't. Only faith in Christ Jesus' righteousness saves. The bible is very clear, works do not save. Galatians 2:16 (ESV) yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Faith in Rome doesn't save. Only Jesus does. blessings,ken
    Well, you seem to know so much about what my Church teaches from a single book. Maybe you could teach me a thing or two about my Church. I've only been a Catholic for 34 years (my entire life). And I'll "parrot" a Church which I believes takes me to Jesus Christ any day of the week.You see, do you realize that every time you openly disagree with the Church, you are basically telling me that, "Your Church is wrong, I'm right" It's really not about what the Bible says now is it? You're telling me to throw away 20 centuries of wisdom and Christ-centered teaching because I'm putting my soul in danger. I wonder why? So I'll ask you the same question I asked Mr.Jordan: How much do you REALLY, TRULY know about the Catholic Church? Where do you get your information from? Brother to Brother, Christian to Christian.........
     
Loading...