Was Jesus born in September or on December 25? — Using John the Baptist’s birth

[Pilgrimer]

The only relevant question is whether the documented testimony is true or false.

Finally, you made your agenda clear. Here is my evidence. "The Epistles of Paul." Even while the Apostles were still alive, Christian faith and practice had gone astray, which is why Paul needed to write letters of correction. The so-called ECF's have no Apostles to correct them and in the absence of sound interpretive skill, and burdened by philosophical assumptions, they strayed much farther away from the faith.

And you got to wonder why. I do.

As I said, you aren't prepared to be shown.

Don't believe me. Look again. Look harder. But trust me, the rest of us can see it.

"Spiritual food" in that context is information that was revealed by the Spirit of God. And only those whom God has prepared to hear it by opening their eyes will receive what was revealed.

If you can't see the syncretism between the Christian church and paganism, even while it is so obvious, then how can I prove it to you? I get it, you are an apologist, armed with a bunch of pat answers. You want me to read my part of the script so that you can respond with your lines. I get it.


Second century.

It wasn't an argument. It was an effort to save your life.

This thread is not about doctrine, it's about history. I have provided historical evidence dating back to New Testament times that proves Christians have from the beginning held December 25 as the date of Jesus' birth. I have also provided evidence why your video contained incorrect historical information. And finally, I do not share your view that all the historical records are nothing but lies and propaganda.

I also do not share your low opinion of the Jewish people. I do not agree that Rabbinic Jews are lying. I believe they are wrong, gravely wrong, and I pray for the Jewish people, that they might believe the Gospel and be saved, but I have had many conversations with Rabbinic Jews and I believe they are sincerely wrong ... not intentionally lying.

Nor do I agree with you that historians and theologians don't care about the truth. I am friends with a number of historians and archaeologists, and have worked with even more, and the ones I know are good people, genuinely interested in what the past can reveal to us about people and places and events.

And I certainly do not agree that Christianity is pagan. That's what cults believe and teach about Christians.

And as for saving my life ... I already have a Savior.

I appreciate your time, but I don't think we are accomplishing anything. I wish you well.

In Jesus Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Anti-Catholic, or any other religious sext is irrelevant to me.

Trying to tie Christianity and Pagan beliefs together as in copying an other traditions or doctrines or one adopting the others traditions or doctrines is mixing and not my understanding of Gods Order and Way.

But it behooves us to first determine whether or not we are in fact mixing our Christian faith with pagan superstitions and traditions.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Taken]

But it behooves us to first determine whether or not we are in fact mixing our Christian faith with pagan superstitions and traditions.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Christ Jesus said to Remember Him. On what days millions are unified in Remembering Christ Jesus what does it matter what non-believers think or do?

 

[Pilgrimer]

Christ Jesus said to Remember Him. On what days millions are unified in Remembering Christ Jesus what does it matter what non-believers think or do?

I agree, and I only engage in discussions on Christian forums with people who identify as Christian. I'm not interested in trying to convert unbelievers, but to arm my fellow Christians, the body of Christ whom I cherish, with the truth about the history of our faith and the history of our observances. I have found that when you push back against those denouncing Christmas, many times the cover eventually falls away and their true agenda comes through, which is to denounce all of Christendom, which you can see for yourself in the discussion right here on this thread if you read all the posts. It went from claiming December 25 is not the date of Jesus' birth, to condemning all of Christianity and the whole body of Christ as idolaters.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[CadyandZoe]

This thread is not about doctrine, it's about history. I have provided historical evidence dating back to New Testament times that proves Christians have from the beginning held December 25 as the date of Jesus' birth. I have also provided evidence why your video contained incorrect historical information. And finally, I do not share your view that all the historical records are nothing but lies and propaganda.

Okay.

I also do not share your low opinion of the Jewish people. I do not agree that Rabbinic Jews are lying. I believe they are wrong, gravely wrong, and I pray for the Jewish people, that they might believe the Gospel and be saved, but I have had many conversations with Rabbinic Jews and I believe they are sincerely wrong ... not intentionally lying.

Did I insult the Jewish people? I don't think so. Jesus was Jewish and so were the apostles and prophets. I have nothing against the Jewish people at all.

Nor do I agree with you that historians and theologians don't care about the truth. I am friends with a number of historians and archaeologists, and have worked with even more, and the ones I know are good people, genuinely interested in what the past can reveal to us about people and places and events.

I have no doubt that your historian friends are good people. After all, they are your friends. But why don't you ask them about Galileo and Copernicus? How were these men treated and why?

And I certainly do not agree that Christianity is pagan. That's what cults believe and teach about Christians.

Do you believe in the Sacraments? Paganism. Absolution by a priest? Paganism. Praying the rosary? Paganism. Eucharist? Paganism Easter? Paganism Christmas? Paganism Purgatory? Paganism Limbo? Paganism Ecstatic worship services? Paganism Slain in the Spirit? Paganism. Anyone who believes that God can be influenced or manipulated through "technique" is pagan in thought.

 

[Adv Bible Study Institute]

It's not Scripturally or historically feasible that Jesus was born during Tabernacles.
First, Herod would never have scheduled a census during a festival. The Law required the Jewish people to return to their ancestral seats to be counted in any census. This would have prevented the Jews from being able to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem to celebrate Tabernacles as the Law commanded. There would have been a riot, just like the riot a few years later when Rome conducted a census according to Roman method and violated Jewish census law. There was rioting and thousands of Jews were killed, which gave rise to the Zealots who later led the revolt against Rome and involved the whole nation in the war which destroyed the nation and brought the Old Covenant to an end. So to assume that the Jews would have passively broken the Law and skipped Tabernacles for a census without a breath being said about it by anybody, including the Gospels of Matthew of Luke, that is not tenable.

And second, Joseph was an observant Jew. He would not have remained in Bethlehem for a census, only 5 miles from Jerusalem, a short hour and a half walk, and violated the commandment to spend Tabernacles in Jerusalem. Not when he was that close to the city. Not to mention all the other Jews who also were in Bethlehem for the census.

I don't think it's a good idea to base history on interpretations of what a particular Mosaic festival may or may not have symbolized. Jesus shed his blood to make atonement for sin on the 15th Nisan and thereby fulfilled what the Day of Atonement blood offering on the 10th Tishri symbolized without having to die on that day. In fact, Jesus' death fulfilled every sacrifice, morning and evening, day in and day out throughout the year, and every Sabbath sacrifice and offering, and every Festival sacrifice and offering, and every firstfruit sacrifice and offering, and every voluntary sacrifice and offering through the generations, all fulfilled not on the dates they occurred, else Jesus would have had to die again and again and again. But that one sacrifice, on that one day, fulfilled them all.

So I think it can be misleading to try to tie the historical events of Jesus' life which fulfilled all these things to the many, many dates on the calendar when those things were observed.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Pilgrimer I do agree with you about the dates. I would liek to add Census taking took months, usually 18 months, for the Romans to carry out throughout their provinces empire-wide.It probably took Herod a similar amount of time. National festivals and fasts would have come and gone during this time and it must have proved a real hardship against the people to have to reside away from their homes and places of work. Joseph was from Nazareth, being held in Bethlehem would mean he probably sought carpenter work in Jerusalem and its vicinity to try to make ends meet. It was during this time while away from Nazareth that he could conceivably divorce (break the betrothal) between Mary and himself.

 

[Adv Bible Study Institute]

I agree, and I only engage in discussions on Christian forums with people who identify as Christian. I'm not interested in trying to convert unbelievers, but to arm my fellow Christians, the body of Christ whom I cherish, with the truth about the history of our faith and the history of our observances. I have found that when you push back against those denouncing Christmas, many times the cover eventually falls away and their true agenda comes through, which is to denounce all of Christendom, which you can see for yourself in the discussion right here on this thread if you read all the posts. It went from claiming December 25 is not the date of Jesus' birth, to condemning all of Christianity and the whole body of Christ as idolaters.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

Brother, we are called to spread the Gospel and should all be interested to reach unbelievers with the Gospel, and leave it to God to convert them. We don't convert anyone.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Brother, we are called to spread the Gospel and should all be interested to reach unbelievers with the Gospel, and leave it to God to convert them. We don't convert anyone.

"And [God] gave some to be apostles; and some to be, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ ..."

"And God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracle, then gifts of healing, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all works of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak in tongues? do all interpret?"

"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another ..."

There is a place and a purpose for those who are called to share and teach for the purpose of edifying and building up the faith of fellow believers.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer