Was Mary Magdalene the sister of Lazarus?

[JohnDB]

That's one of your baseless assertions about me, because when I asked you, "How so?, you didn't say anything. Nor did you say anything in response to the link to proof in support of Maria Valtorta's writings have a supernatural origin.

Maria Valtorta's writings have been declared heresy by the Catholic Church.....they have clear rules about such things such as excommunication for continuing....meaning you are no longer Catholic.

 

[Grailhunter]

I dont mind Catholics as I find they usually are simply ignorant of their customs and traditions

Crackers and grape juice.

What god do you think she worships?

You need to take a look at the history of it all.
The seven “churches” of Christianity came to Nicaea and eventually became the Roman Catholic Church.
From there the Church went south and became corrupt and eventually committed horrible atrocities.
People have wondered why?
I believe it was due to a social mind set of the period. The Catholic Church went from being powerless and persecuted to inheriting the power of the Roman Empire.
For some reason back in ancient times kingdoms and empires fought for world domination. It seems it was a common desire.
The Catholic Church adopted this desire to dominate Christianity and the world.
In the 15th century with the Renaissance and individualism Christians started thinking on their own and then with various translations of the Bible were written and Johannes Gutenberg inventing the printer the cat was out of the bag and people started thinking about Christianity on their own.
The Protestant movement and Martin Luther and people with Bibles began thinking about the scriptures but they did not agree.
Thinking and thinking until today we have over 30,000 Protestant denominations and many still thinking on there own until so now we have millions of renditions of Christianity. But very few have the big picture right.
Is there an exact right?
As a Theologian I can tell you that there is no way of knowing what is exactly right…..the more I know, the more I don’t know. We can only know what we can comprehend…..so much that we cannot comprehend.
What matters is salvation and the earliest Christians with no Bibles who heard the Word and believed were saved by what they understood.
So now we are Christians, Catholic and Protestants and if we cannot love one another we missed the point and probably don't know what it is to be a Christian.
The Catholic Church today is better than it every has been. Sure they have different beliefs…..but with 30,000 denominations they all live in glass houses and should not throw stones at one another. To look at all of this in the big picture it has been Christianity evolving.

 

[JohnDB]

Crackers and grape juice.

What god do you think she worships?

You need to take a look at the history of it all.
The seven “churches” of Christianity came to Nicaea and eventually became the Roman Catholic Church.
From there the Church went south and became corrupt and eventually committed horrible atrocities.
People have wondered why?
I believe it was due to a social mind set of the period. The Catholic Church went from being powerless and persecuted to inheriting the power of the Roman Empire.
For some reason back in ancient times kingdoms and empires fought for world domination. It seems it was a common desire.
The Catholic Church adopted this desire to dominate Christianity and the world.
In the 15th century with the Renaissance and individualism Christians started thinking on their own and then with various translations of the Bible were written and Johannes Gutenberg inventing the printer the cat was out of the bag and people started thinking about Christianity on their own.
The Protestant movement and Martin Luther and people with Bibles began thinking about the scriptures but they did not agree.
Thinking and thinking until today we have over 30,000 Protestant denominations and many still thinking on there own until so now we have millions of renditions of Christianity. But very few have the big picture right.
Is there an exact right?
As a Theologian I can tell you that there is no way of knowing what is exactly right…..the more I know, the more I don’t know. We can only know what we can comprehend…..so much that we cannot comprehend.
What matters is salvation and the earliest Christians with no Bibles who heard the Word and believed were saved by what they understood.
So now we are Christians, Catholic and Protestants and if we cannot love one another we missed the point probably know nothing about what it is to be Christian.
The Catholic Church today is better than it every has been. Sure they have different beliefs…..but with 30,000 denominations they all live in glass houses and should not through stones at one another. To look at all of this in the big picture it has been Christianity evolving.

The poster is no longer Catholic for continuing to believe a heresy. The Catholic Church has deemed Maria Valtorta's writings heresy and all who follow them. She is no longer Catholic....I'm not saying anything....the Catholic Church is.
I have no issue with Catholics but the poster is not Catholic.

What part of this is confusing you?

 

[Grailhunter]

The poster is no longer Catholic for continuing to believe a heresy. The Catholic Church has deemed Maria Valtorta's writings heresy and all who follow them. She is no longer Catholic....I'm not saying anything....the Catholic Church is.
I have no issue with Catholics but the poster is not Catholic.

What part of this is confusing you?

One of the fallacies of Christian denominations is that it carries on in the pews. The priest or preacher can preach one thing but that does not mean those in pews believe what is preached.
If having different beliefs can get you automatically excommunicated what about all these different Protestant denominations. Are they excommunicated from each other and congregations excommunicated from their preacher.
Different God….excommunicated? I don’t think so.

 

[Sabé]

Maria Valtorta's writings have been declared heresy by the Catholic Church.....they have clear rules about such things such as excommunication for continuing....meaning you are no longer Catholic.

The poster is no longer Catholic for continuing to believe a heresy. The Catholic Church has deemed Maria Valtorta's writings heresy and all who follow them. She is no longer Catholic....I'm not saying anything....the Catholic Church is.

Another baseless assertion and lie. What makes this one worse is that you know it's a lie, because I already told you the following (which you didn't address):

"In the February 2025 statement put out by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) regarding Maria Valtorta's writings, they said, "It should be reiterated that alleged “visions”, “revelations,” and “messages” contained in the writings of Maria Valtorta—or, in any case, attributed to them—cannot be regarded as having a supernatural origin. Rather, they should be considered simply as literary forms that the author used to narrate the life of Jesus Christ in her own way". Any honest objective investigator wouldn't and shouldn't automatically take their word for it, especially when they failed to give any indication of whether they reviewed the proof in support of her writings having a supernatural origin. My response to the DDF's decision mirrors that of those given by the Maria Valtorta's Readers' Group, as expressed in the following article: Response to the Vatican's 2025 Press Release on Maria Valtorta. See excerpt below.

Therefore, the Maria Valtorta Readers' Group:
1. Personally believes in the supernatural origin of Maria Valtorta's writings.

2. Affirms the right of other Catholics to personally believe in the supernatural origin of her writings.

3. Publicly acknowledges the DDF statement which says they do not consider it supernatural in origin, though we respectfully disagree with it, considering it an error.

While we disagree with the DDF's conclusion, we still adhere to the discipline of not presenting Valtorta's writings as if they have received approval by the Vatican as coming from a supernatural source. Where some may disagree with us is in whether we can disagree with the factual accuracy of the DDF statement. We maintain that well-informed Catholics, understanding that not all statements from the DDF are infallible, may rightfully doubt certain conclusions. If informed Catholics can present credible evidence that a statement is erroneous, they are not committing a sin by rejecting it. We do not reject the authority of the DDF, but rather we challenge the validity of the specific conclusion in this case, considering it to be an erroneous judgment.
2. There is compelling evidence that Maria Valtorta's work is far more than just a novel. This evidence spans across theological, spiritual, literary, and scientific fields, as well as the immense good it has brought to countless souls. When examined with honesty, it becomes clear that the work cannot simply be attributed to the literary imaginings of a human being, particularly considering the breadth of expertise Valtorta lacked and her severely compromised physical condition at the time of writing. For further details, please refer to the following sub-chapters in our free e-book (A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work), which provide information on scientific evidence supporting Maria Valtorta's claim of supernatural inspiration:

• Proof by Astronomy (Such as Detailed Astronomic Observations Over the Course of Hundreds of Pages in Her 1940s Visions that a Purdue University Professor of Theoretical Physics Testified Are Remarkably Consistent with Her Dating System and that She Could Not Have Predicted or Verified Without a Computer)

• Proof by Geography and Topography and Archaeology (Including Her Describing Palestine and Over 350 Geographical Locations in the Holy Land with a Level of Precision in Multiple Fields that She Could Not Possibly Have Known Without Modern Electronic Scholastic Resources or Access to an Extensive Collection of Books/Atlases in the 1940s that Eyewitnesses and Common Sense Confirm She Did Not—Nor Could Have Had—Access to and Which Itself Arguably Would Have Been Insufficient to Complete Her Work)

• Proof by its Knowledge, Depth, and Eminence in the Theological, Exegetical, Mystical, and Mariological Fields (Which Many World-Renowned Trustworthy Theologians Say Exceed Anything They Have Ever Read)

• Proof by Her Detailed, Exact, and Often Unparalleled Knowledge of the Political, Religious, Economic, Social, and Familial Situation—as Well as the Dress—of the Ancient Jewish, Samaritan, and Roman Peoples that Astound Even World-Renowned Biblical Scholars

• Proof by The Poem's Unquestionable Expertise, Deep Knowledge, and Exhaustive Information in Such a Wide Variety of Theological and Scientific Subjects, and the Fact Almost 15,000 Handwritten Pages of Such Was Written in Only 3½ Years Amidst Her Unusually Severe Physical Condition and Illnesses and Even Though She Lacked the Learning, Resources, and Books Required to Write a Work a Tenth as Profound as This

• Proof by the Extraordinary, Unprecedented Way in Which it Was Written, Compiled, & Put Together (Such as the Fact that 166 Out of the 647 Chapters Were Written Out of Order, and She has Jesus Ministering in Over 350 Named Locations and Traveling Over 4,000 Miles in Six Different Cycles Across Palestine, and Yet Jesus and All of the Other 500+ Characters are Never in a Place Inconsistent with Either the Story Line or the Timing and Distance Necessities Required for Traveling, and There is Not One Person, Place, or Thing Out of Place)

• Proof By the Writing's Extraordinary Purity, Holiness, Loftiness, and Eminence Among the Writings that Exist in the World

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by Research that Shows that The Poem is Not Based on (or a Mere Expansion of) any Known Gospel Manuscript Standard, Version, or School of Critical Thought, Something Expected if a Work of This Magnitude, Detail, and Accuracy Had Been a Mere Human Effort

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) in How The Poem Resolves Many Problems in the Gospel Accounts Which Scholars Have Struggled with For Years (Including Apparent Contradictions Between the Different Gospel Accounts and Apparent Errors or Inconsistencies Within the Same Gospel Account), and How It Furthermore Corrects Certain Misunderstandings and Translation Errors that Have Been Perpetuated Throughout the Centuries

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by the Fact Maria Valtorta's Visions of Christ's Passion Perfectly Match Detailed Findings on the Miraculous Shroud of Turin that Recent Modern Scientific Tests Have Revealed Decades After Her Writings Were Published and the Fact Her Writings Foretold Something Amazing About the Veil of Veronica Which Has Been Scientifically Proven for the First Time Decades After Her Death

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by its Perfect Correspondence to the Ancient Liturgical and Patristic Tradition of the Ancient Catholic Byzantine Rite of the Church

• Proof by the Testimony of Countless Trustworthy Clerics, Authorities, Experts, Scientists, and Pious Lay Faithful and the Tremendously Good Fruits Produced in Individuals and in the Church as a Whole

 

[JohnDB]

Another baseless assertion and lie. What makes this one worse is that you know it's a lie, because I already told you the following (which you didn't address):

"In the February 2025 statement put out by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) regarding Maria Valtorta's writings, they said, "It should be reiterated that alleged “visions”, “revelations,” and “messages” contained in the writings of Maria Valtorta—or, in any case, attributed to them—cannot be regarded as having a supernatural origin. Rather, they should be considered simply as literary forms that the author used to narrate the life of Jesus Christ in her own way". Any honest objective investigator wouldn't and shouldn't automatically take their word for it, especially when they failed to give any indication of whether they reviewed the proof in support of her writings having a supernatural origin. My response to the DDF's decision mirrors that of those given by the Maria Valtorta's Readers' Group, as expressed in the following article: Response to the Vatican's 2025 Press Release on Maria Valtorta. See excerpt below.

Flowery way of saying complete fiction and heresy to put faith in them....

Which you are placing something akin to Star Wars as fact over and above scriptures and catechism.

That's heresy. Sorry if you do not like it....but that's what you have done.

 

[JohnDB]

Another baseless assertion and lie. What makes this one worse is that you know it's a lie, because I already told you the following (which you didn't address):

"In the February 2025 statement put out by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) regarding Maria Valtorta's writings, they said, "It should be reiterated that alleged “visions”, “revelations,” and “messages” contained in the writings of Maria Valtorta—or, in any case, attributed to them—cannot be regarded as having a supernatural origin. Rather, they should be considered simply as literary forms that the author used to narrate the life of Jesus Christ in her own way". Any honest objective investigator wouldn't and shouldn't automatically take their word for it, especially when they failed to give any indication of whether they reviewed the proof in support of her writings having a supernatural origin. My response to the DDF's decision mirrors that of those given by the Maria Valtorta's Readers' Group, as expressed in the following article: Response to the Vatican's 2025 Press Release on Maria Valtorta. See excerpt below.

You have a choice....Either Maria wrote truth and Jesus is a liar
OR
Jesus told the truth and Maria is the storyteller.

You cannot have both.
Its "pick a side" time.

And if continuing with Maria you make her out to be a prophet, something the Catholic Church says is false.

If I went to any Baptist church and claimed the Chronicles of Narnia are more reliable than scriptures....they would ride me out on a rail with tar and feathers....Catholics are no different.

 

[Sabé]

Flowery way of saying complete fiction and heresy to put faith in them....

Which you are placing something akin to Star Wars as fact over and above scriptures and catechism.

That's heresy. Sorry if you do not like it....but that's what you have done.

If I went to any Baptist church and claimed the Chronicles of Narnia are more reliable than scriptures....they would ride me out on a rail with tar and feathers....Catholics are no different.

• The descriptive phrase "flowery way of speaking" means using overly ornate, elaborate, or complex language with excessive adjectives and sophisticated vocabulary instead of simple, direct words.

• The Christian (Catholic) term "heresy" is defined as the obstinate refusal to accept a defined truth of the faith. Catholic-defined truths include core doctrines like the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, and the guidance of the Catholic Church, which are presented in creeds and taught through divine revelation in Scripture and Tradition. These truths are considered objective realities, grounded in God, who is the source of all truth, and are received through a free act of faith by the intellect and will of the believer.

The February 2025 statement statement put out by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) didn't consist of flowery words, but rather simple and direct words. And, they didn't say that Maria Valtorta's writings should be considered heresy, but rather "they should be considered simply as literary forms that the author used to narrate the life of Jesus Christ in her own way". And, the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) is not infallible, as they've been wrong before. Furthermore, they chose not to disclose in their statement whether they had reviewed the proof in support of Maria Valtorta's writings having a supernatural origin.

Additionally, I've never said that Maria Valtorta's writings are more reliable than Scripture. Can there ever be words spoken by God that are more reliable than other words He's spoken? And, you still have yet to explain how you think I'm "upholding her [Maria Valtorta] as primary", and "placing her [Maria Valtorta] over and above scriptures and catechism". Is it just the fact that I believe she was a spokesperson of God and reference His words written down by her? If so, then, if God started speaking to you like He did with Maria, and instructed you to write at His behest, would you not be obedient? If you were me, and believed Maria Valtorta to have been God's spokesperson, would you not reference His words that He spoke through her?

You have a choice....Either Maria wrote truth and Jesus is a liar
OR
Jesus told the truth and Maria is the storyteller.

You cannot have both.
Its "pick a side" time.

Or, God truly chose Maria Valtorta to be His "pen", to write down His spoken dictations, and describe the visions she received from Him. And, I already chose to believe this long ago, because God provided the proof for it, as He's always done with His true spokespersons.

 

[JohnDB]

• The descriptive phrase "flowery way of speaking" means using overly ornate, elaborate, or complex language with excessive adjectives and sophisticated vocabulary instead of simple, direct words.

• The Christian (Catholic) term "heresy" is defined as the obstinate refusal to accept a defined truth of the faith. Catholic-defined truths include core doctrines like the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, and the guidance of the Catholic Church, which are presented in creeds and taught through divine revelation in Scripture and Tradition. These truths are considered objective realities, grounded in God, who is the source of all truth, and are received through a free act of faith by the intellect and will of the believer.

The February 2025 statement statement put out by the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) didn't consist of flowery words, but rather simple and direct words. And, they didn't say that Maria Valtorta's writings should be considered heresy, but rather "they should be considered simply as literary forms that the author used to narrate the life of Jesus Christ in her own way". And, the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) is not infallible, as they've been wrong before. Furthermore, they chose not to disclose in their statement whether they had reviewed the proof in support of Maria Valtorta's writings having a supernatural origin.

Additionally, I've never said that Maria Valtorta's writings are more reliable than Scripture. Can there ever be words spoken by God that are more reliable than other words He's spoken? And, you still have yet to explain how you think I'm "upholding her [Maria Valtorta] as primary", and "placing her [Maria Valtorta] over and above scriptures and catechism". Is it just the fact that I believe she was a spokesperson of God and reference His words written down by her? If so, then, if God started speaking to you like He did with Maria, and instructed you to write at His behest, would you not be obedient? If you were me, and believed Maria Valtorta to have been God's spokesperson, would you not reference His words that He spoke through her?



Or, God truly chose Maria Valtorta to be His "pen", to write down His spoken dictations, and describe the visions she received from Him. And, I already chose to believe this long ago, because God provided the proof for it, as He's always done with His true spokespersons.

So if you claim her fictional account is truth....then Jesus is a liar to you....both accounts of Jesus cannot be true. Either scripture is true or Maria.

And since you choose Maria....you do NOT worship my God in any fashion. Only something similar but powerless, loveless, not Sovereign, not omniscient or omnipotent....just a shallow copy based on feelings without truth.

 

[Sabé]

So if you claim her fictional account is truth....then Jesus is a liar to you....both accounts of Jesus cannot be true. Either scripture is true or Maria.

Hold your horses. You haven't even proven that the writings Maria Valtorta attributed to God as the Author of are not so. If you want to have a go at it, start by challenging the proof in support of her writings having a supernatural origin, found in A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work:

• Proof by its Knowledge, Depth, and Eminence in the Theological, Exegetical, Mystical, and Mariological Fields (Which Many World-Renowned Trustworthy Theologians Say Exceed Anything They Have Ever Read)

• Proof by Her Detailed, Exact, and Often Unparalleled Knowledge of the Political, Religious, Economic, Social, and Familial Situation—as Well as the Dress—of the Ancient Jewish, Samaritan, and Roman Peoples that Astound Even World-Renowned Biblical Scholars

• Proof by The Poem's Unquestionable Expertise, Deep Knowledge, and Exhaustive Information in Such a Wide Variety of Theological and Scientific Subjects, and the Fact Almost 15,000 Handwritten Pages of Such Was Written in Only 3½ Years Amidst Her Unusually Severe Physical Condition and Illnesses and Even Though She Lacked the Learning, Resources, and Books Required to Write a Work a Tenth as Profound as This

• Proof by the Extraordinary, Unprecedented Way in Which it Was Written, Compiled, & Put Together (Such as the Fact that 166 Out of the 647 Chapters Were Written Out of Order, and She has Jesus Ministering in Over 350 Named Locations and Traveling Over 4,000 Miles in Six Different Cycles Across Palestine, and Yet Jesus and All of the Other 500+ Characters are Never in a Place Inconsistent with Either the Story Line or the Timing and Distance Necessities Required for Traveling, and There is Not One Person, Place, or Thing Out of Place)

• Proof By the Writing's Extraordinary Purity, Holiness, Loftiness, and Eminence Among the Writings that Exist in the World

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by Research that Shows that The Poem is Not Based on (or a Mere Expansion of) any Known Gospel Manuscript Standard, Version, or School of Critical Thought, Something Expected if a Work of This Magnitude, Detail, and Accuracy Had Been a Mere Human Effort

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) in How The Poem Resolves Many Problems in the Gospel Accounts Which Scholars Have Struggled with For Years (Including Apparent Contradictions Between the Different Gospel Accounts and Apparent Errors or Inconsistencies Within the Same Gospel Account), and How It Furthermore Corrects Certain Misunderstandings and Translation Errors that Have Been Perpetuated Throughout the Centuries

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by the Fact Maria Valtorta's Visions of Christ's Passion Perfectly Match Detailed Findings on the Miraculous Shroud of Turin that Recent Modern Scientific Tests Have Revealed Decades After Her Writings Were Published and the Fact Her Writings Foretold Something Amazing About the Veil of Veronica Which Has Been Scientifically Proven for the First Time Decades After Her Death

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by its Perfect Correspondence to the Ancient Liturgical and Patristic Tradition of the Ancient Catholic Byzantine Rite of the Church

• Proof by the Testimony of Countless Trustworthy Clerics, Authorities, Experts, Scientists, and Pious Lay Faithful and the Tremendously Good Fruits Produced in Individuals and in the Church as a Whole

 

[JohnDB]

Hold your horses. You haven't even proven that the writings Maria Valtorta attributed to God as the Author of are not so. If you want to have a go at it, start by challenging the proof in support of her writings having a supernatural origin, found in A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work:

• Proof by its Knowledge, Depth, and Eminence in the Theological, Exegetical, Mystical, and Mariological Fields (Which Many World-Renowned Trustworthy Theologians Say Exceed Anything They Have Ever Read)

• Proof by Her Detailed, Exact, and Often Unparalleled Knowledge of the Political, Religious, Economic, Social, and Familial Situation—as Well as the Dress—of the Ancient Jewish, Samaritan, and Roman Peoples that Astound Even World-Renowned Biblical Scholars

• Proof by The Poem's Unquestionable Expertise, Deep Knowledge, and Exhaustive Information in Such a Wide Variety of Theological and Scientific Subjects, and the Fact Almost 15,000 Handwritten Pages of Such Was Written in Only 3½ Years Amidst Her Unusually Severe Physical Condition and Illnesses and Even Though She Lacked the Learning, Resources, and Books Required to Write a Work a Tenth as Profound as This

• Proof by the Extraordinary, Unprecedented Way in Which it Was Written, Compiled, & Put Together (Such as the Fact that 166 Out of the 647 Chapters Were Written Out of Order, and She has Jesus Ministering in Over 350 Named Locations and Traveling Over 4,000 Miles in Six Different Cycles Across Palestine, and Yet Jesus and All of the Other 500+ Characters are Never in a Place Inconsistent with Either the Story Line or the Timing and Distance Necessities Required for Traveling, and There is Not One Person, Place, or Thing Out of Place)

• Proof By the Writing's Extraordinary Purity, Holiness, Loftiness, and Eminence Among the Writings that Exist in the World

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by Research that Shows that The Poem is Not Based on (or a Mere Expansion of) any Known Gospel Manuscript Standard, Version, or School of Critical Thought, Something Expected if a Work of This Magnitude, Detail, and Accuracy Had Been a Mere Human Effort

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) in How The Poem Resolves Many Problems in the Gospel Accounts Which Scholars Have Struggled with For Years (Including Apparent Contradictions Between the Different Gospel Accounts and Apparent Errors or Inconsistencies Within the Same Gospel Account), and How It Furthermore Corrects Certain Misunderstandings and Translation Errors that Have Been Perpetuated Throughout the Centuries

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by the Fact Maria Valtorta's Visions of Christ's Passion Perfectly Match Detailed Findings on the Miraculous Shroud of Turin that Recent Modern Scientific Tests Have Revealed Decades After Her Writings Were Published and the Fact Her Writings Foretold Something Amazing About the Veil of Veronica Which Has Been Scientifically Proven for the First Time Decades After Her Death

• Proof (or a Substantiating Factor) by its Perfect Correspondence to the Ancient Liturgical and Patristic Tradition of the Ancient Catholic Byzantine Rite of the Church

• Proof by the Testimony of Countless Trustworthy Clerics, Authorities, Experts, Scientists, and Pious Lay Faithful and the Tremendously Good Fruits Produced in Individuals and in the Church as a Whole

When these writings contradict scripture....guess what?

Saying scriptures are wrong is saying God is wrong. I'm not comfortable with that one bit. I dont care what anyone says.

 

[Sabé]

When these writings contradict scripture....guess what?

You haven't even given one example of what you perceive to be a contradiction.

Saying scriptures are wrong is saying God is wrong. I'm not comfortable with that one bit. I dont care what anyone says.

I never said that Scripture is wrong because it's not. Just because I treat God as the living Being that He is, which, in part, means acknowledging that He can and will speak to whomever, whenever, however, about whatever He wills, including to people mentioned outside of Scripture, doesn't mean that His interactions with people mentioned in Scripture didn't happen, or are unimportant.

 

[JohnDB]

You haven't even given one example of what you perceive to be a contradiction.



I never said that Scripture is wrong because it's not. Just because I treat God as the living being that He is, which, in part, means acknowledging that He can and will speak to whomever, whenever, however He wills, including to people mentioned outside of Scripture, doesn't mean that His interactions with people mentioned in Scripture didn't happen, or are unimportant.

6 Mary's or 2?

Scriptures count 6....

 

[Grailhunter]

@Sabé @JohnDB
Just a word on the Marys….
Mary is an English name….came out around the middle ages.
Before that Marie which is Latin…..came out around the 4th century.
Of course neither was her actual name….she was Jewish so….
Her actual name was Miriam, but the biblical translators did not like that name for the mother of Christ because in Hebrew it means rebellion.
They changed things that they did not like….for example Magi mean sorcerer or witch. Why would witches have an interest in Christ? They did not like that so they changed Magi to wise men or kings. Oh three kings of orient are….

Some scholars believed some of the female followers of Christ were named Miriam by the Apostles to blur their contribution to the narrative. The reason they speculate this is because of their abrupt disappearance from the narrative after Pentecost they think it might have been discord between the female followers and the Apostles.

Now as far as why Christians venerated Mary, this occurred long before Catholic Church. This was a belief that was promoted by congregations and early Christian writers….Justin Martyr (100–165) Since then there have been over 20,000 visitations witnessed by over 100,000 people. The Christian conversion of South America is attributed to the Lady of Guadalupe. What does this mean? Facts are facts.

But for Protestants this belief is not biblical because they say their beliefs are based on the first 65 years of Christian history….Bible only…..But they are only Bible only when it suites them for example nowhere in the Bible is wedding ceremonies a requirement for marriage and the Bible never put an end to polygamy or concubinage or slavery. Their belief that the veneration of Mary was strictly Catholic is because they are not real knowledgeable of Christian history.

The fact is Christian history continued after the biblical period and God continued to teach things to Christianity. Christianity has never been a static religion, always dynamic….From Eden to Paul things were ever evolving.

 

[Sabé]

6 Mary's or 2?

Scriptures count 6....

First, Maria Valtorta never wrote about a total of two Marys. Second, some believe there were at least six separate women named "Mary", others believe some of those Marys were the same person. What do you believe, and what's your evidence to support that belief? I'm part of the latter group. And, I refer to Scripture, as well as the writings of other truly inspired writers God has spoken through about His life on earth, and so on, the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, etc. Due to this, I've come to understand the following about the main Marys in the New Testament:

• Mary of Joseph (Matt. 1:18)

• Mary of Clopas/Cleophas (Alphaeus) (Jn. 19:25), Mary the mother of James and Joseph (Matt. 27:56), Mary mother of James (Mk. 16:1, Lk. 24:10), and "the other Mary" (Matt. 27:61, 28:1) were the same person, and she was the wife of Joseph of Nazareth's brother, Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), and thus the sister-in-law of Jesus's Mother, Mary (cf. Jn. 19:25). Their sons were Jesus's brothers (relatives/kinsmen), and thus His cousins: Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Thaddeus) (Matt.13:55-56, Mk. 6:3). Two of those cousins, James and Judas of Alphaeus (Clopas/Cleophas), were elected by Jesus to be His apostles (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18;15:40, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13). [Note: the apostle, Matthew (Levi), was the son of a man named "Alphaeus" as well (Mk. 2:14), but he was not the same Alphaeus as the father of Jesus's cousin-apostles James and Judas (Thaddeus).] The unbelieving brothers of Jesus (Jn. 7:5) were the other two cousins of His: Joseph and Simon, though they later came to believe that He was the Messiah.

• Lazarus and Martha's sister, Mary (Matt. 26:6-13, Mk. 14:3-9, Jn. 11:1-2; 12:1-8, Lk. 7:36-50), and the unnamed repentant woman—both of whom anointed Jesus with ointment and wiped His feet with their hair—was Mary the Magdalene, from whom Jesus cast out seven demons. (Lk. 8:1-2)

 

[Sabé]

she had been freed from demonic possession but there is no indication that she was known as a sinful woman.......

All humans, with the exception of a couple, are sinners, including Mary the Magdelene. And, she was possessed by seven demons, before she was healed of that, which wouldn't have meant she committed moral actions.

.......she was a close friend and associate of Jesus and his apostles, and a supporter of his ministry.

Correct, after she repented and became a disciple.

Considering how common the name “Mary” was is Bible times, the fact is that there are 6 “Marys” mentioned in the Bible....

1. The mother of Jesus. Matt 1:18.

2. The sister of Martha and Lazarus. John 11:1-2.

3. Mary Magdalene. Luke 8:2.

4. The mother of James and Joses. Matt 27:56.

5. The mother ofJohn Mark. Acts 12:12.

6. A Christian in Rome who laboured in behalf of the congregation there. Rom 16:6

Some believe there were at least six separate women named "Mary", others believe some of those Marys were the same person. What do you believe, and what's your evidence to support that belief? I'm part of the latter group. And, I refer to Scripture, as well as the writings of other truly inspired writers God has spoken through about His life on earth, and so on, the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, etc. Due to this, I've come to understand the following about the main Marys in the New Testament:

• Mary of Joseph (Matt. 1:18)

• Mary of Clopas (Alphaeus) or Cleophas (Jn. 19:25), Mary the mother of James and Joseph (Matt. 27:56), Mary mother of James (Mk. 16:1, Lk. 24:10), and “the other Mary” (Matt. 27:61, 28:1) were the same person, and she was the wife of Joseph of Nazareth’s brother, Clopas (Alphaeus) or Cleophas, and thus the sister-in-law of Jesus’s Mother, Mary (cf. Jn. 19:25). Their sons were Jesus’s brothers (relatives/kinsmen), and thus His cousins: Joseph, Simon, James, and Judas (Thaddeus) (Matt.13:55-56, Mk. 6:3). Two of those cousins, James and Judas of Clopas (Alphaeus) or Cleophas, were elected by Jesus to be His apostles (Matt. 10:3, Mk. 3:18;15:40, Lk. 6:15-16, Ac. 1:13). [Note: the apostle, Matthew (Levi), was the son of a man named “Alphaeus” as well (Mk. 2:14), but he was not the same Alphaeus as the father of Jesus’s cousin-apostles James and Judas (Thaddeus).] The unbelieving brothers of Jesus (Jn. 7:5) were the other two cousins of His: Joseph and Simon, though they later came to believe that He was the Messiah.

• Lazarus and Martha's sister, Mary (Matt. 26:6-13, Mk. 14:3-9, Jn. 11:1-2; 12:1-8, Lk. 7:36-50), and the unnamed repentant woman—both of whom anointed Jesus with ointment and wiped His feet with their hair—was Mary the Magdalene, from whom Jesus cast out seven demons. (Lk. 8:1-2)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I never said that Scripture is wrong because it's not. Just because I treat God as the living Being that He is, which, in part, means acknowledging that He can and will speak to whomever, whenever, however, about whatever He wills, including to people mentioned outside of Scripture, doesn't mean that His interactions with people mentioned in Scripture didn't happen, or are unimportant.

When God spoke to his human servants, it was recorded in Scripture....all that needed to be told to us is on record for all to see with their own eyes. I do not believe that he has anything more to tell us in the era following the death of the apostles, because we were warned of an apostasy after that....so I have no interest even in writings of the so called, “church fathers”.....for me it’s either scriptural or it’s false.

The Scriptures tell us about the times we are living in now, as well as taking us 1000 years into the future.
Anyone who claims to speak for God in these days, I believe the devil is having a lend of them.
There is really no more to tell, so God’s true servants will not be claiming that their information came through a modern day prophet....the last prophet God sent was his son...the “Prophet like Moses” who was to come. What is discerned in these last days is a clearer understanding of what is already written as it says in Prov 4:18-19...
“The path of the righteous is like the light of dawn,which increases in brightness to the fullness of day. But the way of the wicked is like deep darkness,and they cannot even see what they have stumbled over.” (NCB)

All humans, with the exception of a couple, are sinners, including Mary the Magdelene. And, she was possessed by seven demons, before she was healed of that, which wouldn't have meant she committed moral actions.

No kidding....doesn’t that apply to all of us?

Correct, after she repented and became a disciple.

Yes.....and.....? Who suggested that it was before that?
Who were any of us before we became believers?

What is it that we believe? Is it true? Believing something never made it true.

God knows what we think, and why we do what we do. He knows why the majority accept what is not true and where they are headed. (Matt 7:13-14) He allows us to choose our own destiny, based on the use of our free will, just like he did with Adam and his wife....choose wisely because we only get one shot at everlasting life.

When someone shows you that 99% of what you accept as truth, isn’t true at all, and you do nothing to correct yourself.....where do you suppose you will end up?

 

[Sabé]

When God spoke to his human servants, it was recorded in Scripture....all that needed to be told to us is on record for all to see with their own eyes.

Scripture is sufficient for bringing men to belief and salvation, but it is not a complete knowledge of Jesus. And, nowhere is that said in Scripture that God stopped speaking to or through humanity.

 

[Wick Stick]

If having different beliefs can get you automatically excommunicated what about all these different Protestant denominations. Are they excommunicated from each other and congregations excommunicated from their preacher.

Excommunication is a Catholic thing.

Protestants don't excommunicate each other, but we're probably all excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church. We are, by definition, not in communion with the Pope.

 

[Grailhunter]

Excommunication is a Catholic thing.

Protestants don't excommunicate each other, but we're probably all excommunicated from the Roman Catholic Church. We are, by definition, not in communion with the Pope.

Correct.
Dry humor.