Was the Cross Always Understood?
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something i find so ironic about the cross ,as its pictured ,its left standing with out a body hanging on it . yes the bible does say the dead body of Jesus was taken down and put in a grave/Tomb . to be taken down does not mean the cross was left standing . it was stood with a man nailed to it ,it would be laid down with a man nailed to it . the body then removed . the cross then to be reused on some other unfortunate man . at least as Christendom understands it . little different as it was only a pole ,no cross bar. lay it down remove the body, reuse .
Apart from your putting words in my mouth, I'm still not understanding your issue with all our sins forgiven. Paul himself said that if he does what he would not, it is no longer he who sins, but sin in him.
So, please define intentional sin. Where is that line in the sand drawn whereby one loses his salvation?
BTW
Greetings.
The problem with your premises that you used to support your conclusion is that you are also assuming something into the texts what isn't there...namely loss of salvation. Context is king, and the contexts don't appear to support the presence of the salvific injections.
BTW
PS95
Well-Known Member
Non interaction with the passages is a terrible way to defend your position. I've dealt with several on here with your teaching and not one addresses the scriptures. It's a sad pattern.
We are secure as we abide in Christ. To love God means to obey Him. Period.
If we depart from the faith purposefully and live in all manner of sins- there is no salvation.
That's clear. There is no defense for teaching otherwise.
Be careful. You are not rightly dividing the word.
Last edited:
BreadOfLife
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Does that mean that you don't have a SHRED of evidence for your false claims about the Catholic Church?
That's what I thought . . .
What do you mean "Whatever"??
I'm waiting for proof that the CC teaches that Mary needs to quiet down an angry God.
Blaspheming God should not be passed over.
Please stop blaspheming God...
and
Supply the source for your incorrect statement about the CC.
I absolutely agree that when there's ANY question...we put what Jesus said first.
There are some members that seem to think that Paul is easier on believers than Jesus is...so they tend to quote only him and
never Jesus.
I know what the differences are LoveYeshua....
I believe that if we read Paul carefully, we really will not find any big difference.
Is there a thread about this?
I'll tell you right now what I see as being different:
Jesus was very matter of fact.
He said we have to be born FROM ABOVE...
this means we need to be spiritually born again.
Then Jesus never speaks of this again but, instead, speaks about the
Kingdom of God and how believers are to be part of it.
Jesus speaks about how we are to behave in order to be saved.
Paul speaks about how we are not to follow THE LAW anymore, how WORKS OF THE LAW
do not save. Many get this mixed up with just good works/deeds which Paul did indeed teach.
He spoke more about the idea of being born again and how to achieve this by faith/belief instead of
belief and good works.
We can make a case for the differences...
I just don't think they're that apparent or important.
I could be wrong...it would be an interesting conversation.
But, yes, Jesus is always first.
He's the one that went to the cross,
not Paul. (as I've said many times).
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Anyone
let it be said , let it be sung and let it be heard ,
anyone
i say anyone
whether your own mother to a pastor to any
That pits parts of the bible against other parts
IS ONE I WONT HEED PEROID .
nor should any other .
What was written by EVERY apostel did NOT CONTRADICT any other or JESUS .
And men who dare to even think certain letters should be removed
DONT even understand the very letters they THINK should remain .
I TELL US ALL
that from JESUS HIMSELF down to every apostel , to include paul
THEIR WORDS DID NOT CONTRADICT one another .
Even from page one to past last of that bible , THERE IS NO CONTRADICTIONS .
Yes you heard me right . N O contraditions . just warped thinking or lack of understanding on the parts
of those who T H INK there is .
I have to agree.
If there is conflict in the NT,,,it becomes useless.
Jesus did speak in a way that was different from Paul,
but they did not conflict.
You got it, sister! But I have seen in a few forums, and even here, that many twist the words of Christ because they lack understanding of what He truly taught — repentance and the kingdom of heaven. Many are confused about the covenant and about the law of Moses. They mix up the law of Moses with the Ten Commandments and fail to see the difference. This lack of understanding is the main problem.
The commandments that Jesus asked us to keep (Paul also told believers to keep the commandments in his letters – see Romans 13:9) are not the same as the law of Moses. Instead, some take Paul’s words about the law of Moses — the laws that are no longer in effect today, such as the sacrificial laws — and wrongly apply them to the commandments of God.
Unfortunately, as Peter wrote, “Paul’s letters contain some things hard to understand” (2 Peter 3:15–16). And truly, Paul’s writings can be interpreted in many ways, which is why some, without understanding, twist them. But the real issue is that people rebel against the commandments of God and think that Paul gives them a free pass — that faith and grace alone will save them. Yet Christ said clearly, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17).
I am trying to bring people back to Christ — the true Christ they have forgotten and replaced with Paul’s misunderstood words. This is my goal here until I leave this forum.
I am Glad that God blessed you with this truth that not many understand, you are good to go!
Thanks!
It's encouraging.
I agree to all of the above.
The civil and ceremonial laws have been abolished.
The Moral Law will never be abolished. (the commandments)
Some of Paul's writings do sound as if faith and grace is all we need....
But why would these same persons not also accept what Jesus taught - which is simple and to the point.
It's as you say - rebellion.
Again...nice to have company!
The other member, @PS95 is not reading anything in to the text at hand.
It is YOU that is reading there what does not exist there.
Those that believe in OSAS read into texts what they want to believe,,,
and not what it states.
2 Timothy 2:12-13
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot * deny Himself.
Verse 12: IF we endure - this means to believe until our time of death.
IF we endure, we will reign with Him.
IF we DENY Him, He also will deny us.
We can deny God at any time...
either before salvation
or
after salvation.
Denial is denial and God WILL deny us if we deny Him.
Verse 13: If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
This means that God will keep to His promises.
What is the promise that Jesus made to us?
That IF we ABIDE in Him,,,,we will be saved.
IF we obey Jesus' commandments, we will be saved.
I posted John 15:2 previously, but you didn't reply.
And is it any wonder?
Jesus PLAINLY states that we could BE SAVED,
and yet not be fruitful and thus be removed from the vine.
Now....IF YOU are correct in your understanding of verse 13....
then there is a conflict with verse 12.
In 12 it states God WILL deny us...
and
In 13 it SOUNDS like He will not.
You have a problem Before - because you are not properly exegeting 2 Peter 2:12-13.
I asked Microsoft Co-Pilot.
I acknowledge that the cross was a brutal instrument of torture—designed for shame, suffering, and death. Yet through the lens of the Gospel, it becomes the paradoxical gateway to life. For those who read and receive the testimony of Yeshua, the Messiah, we move forward not in despair but in resurrection. He is the Spirit of Christ within us, and through Him, we are reborn as children of God, walking in the newness of life.
As Paul writes, “Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4).
Jesus was hung on a tree—a phrase echoed in Acts 5:30: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you murdered by hanging on a tree.” This tree, I believe, is not merely a Roman cross, but symbolically the Tree of Life—because from His resurrection flows eternal life to all who believe. This Tree of Life stands in stark contrast to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which brought death through disobedience.
Through Christ, the curse of the tree becomes the blessing of life. “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’)” (Galatians 3:13). And now, through Him, we are invited to partake of the true Tree of Life, as Revelation 22:2 declares: “On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
I acknowledge that the cross was a brutal instrument of torture—designed for shame, suffering, and death. Yet through the lens of the Gospel, it becomes the paradoxical gateway to life. For those who read and receive the testimony of Yeshua, the Messiah, we move forward not in despair but in resurrection. He is the Spirit of Christ within us, and through Him, we are reborn as children of God, walking in the newness of life.
As Paul writes, “Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life” (Romans 6:4).
Jesus was hung on a tree—a phrase echoed in Acts 5:30: “The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you murdered by hanging on a tree.” This tree, I believe, is not merely a Roman cross, but symbolically the Tree of Life—because from His resurrection flows eternal life to all who believe. This Tree of Life stands in stark contrast to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, which brought death through disobedience.
Through Christ, the curse of the tree becomes the blessing of life. “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree’)” (Galatians 3:13). And now, through Him, we are invited to partake of the true Tree of Life, as Revelation 22:2 declares: “On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
Theological Transformation
• The Apostle Paul reframed the cross as “the power of God” (1 Corinthians 1:18), introducing the paradox: what was once a symbol of death became the means of salvation.
• Substitutionary atonement theology emerged: Jesus’ death on the cross was interpreted as a sacrificial act to redeem humanity from sin.
• The cross became a “wood of life”—a victorious paradox where death leads to eternal life.
You misunderstand the point. All of scripture is FOR us but not all is TO us. I realize you may not like that, but it is what it is. I dealt directly with the scriptures you quoted, which is to say that injecting salvation into those as if they lend some ethereal support to some idea of losing salvation, that simply is false. Yes, it's always the better way to avoid all sin and to live lives dedicated to the Lord. That you ignored what Paul said about his own life and sin, that speaks volumes to your bias. The habitual practice of assuming we believe we have license to sin, that only poisons the well given that I personally never even hinted at that concept.
So, if we can't discuss that line that so many seem to believe exists, including yourself from what I have seen you state in prior posts, it really become moot. We know where the line is for crossing over INTO salvation, but the salvation loss people seem to have no definition for its alleged loss. That serves as an indictment against that false doctrine. Would you agree?
BTW
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Explain what you mean by JESUS did speak in a way that was different from paul .
You are correct they did not conflict .
but what do you mean by In a different way .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
if we read paul carefully we wont find any difference .
People really think ol paul was easier on believers .
What i think is most folks dont know the whole of his letters at all . At most they exclude and skim over
some of the most dire warnings i ever seen . Paul gave very serious and dire warnings
just like JESUS did . Allow me to let you in on a secrete , T HOUGH I THINK you already KNOW THIS .
Men who follow pauline , DONT KNOW PUAL at all my friend . THEY twisted even the warnings HE gave .
PAUL said IF ONE continues NOT IN CHRIST what happens . That man warned more than folks realize .
ITS just the OSAS camp and others TWISTED HIS warnings . OH but he sure made it clear
as did peter . People like to pick and choose twisted doctrines is what this is all about .
recreating a paul , or a jesus , or a james or etc Into an image that suits their flesh . That is a fact .
I know it angers folks that i am direct and to the point and dont down tone sins either .
But if you find me a wee bit too grave
THEN OPEN up that bible again and YOU SEE what JESUS said , later paul , later peter .
john and others . MEN are fleecing and have been fleecing folks and folks seem to love to be sheared
by these money mongering hirelings who have done nothing but change with the times
and tickled ears . No worries i shall expose them and their doctrines no matter how shunned it makes me .
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