The questions I raised here were legitimate questions.
Your first response was on target.
That I questioned another poster by quoting from a recent thread was also on topic.
Why did you not question those posts to begin with?
Was the death on the cross necessary?
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Your first response was on target.
That I questioned another poster by quoting from a recent thread was also on topic.
Why did you not question those posts to begin with?
Show me where the Bible says that Atonement is for the purpose of satisfying the justice if God.
Why would you force God to work in your realm of ideas?
I quoted him directly, even gave you page numbers. He contradicts himself like 99% of those who read him do!
Millions learned from him... he will be held accountable!
So, you take the easy route and let someone else do the thinking for you? Is that faith in Berkhof for your salvation that you preach? Is he your substitute for the Bible? Are you trusting Berkhof to believe for you too? Do you actually read and study Berkhof? Or are you just a cut-and-paste warrior!
I would be interested in the page number where he declares the heresy that you tout... that Penal Substitution is the "gospel" and not faith in the work of Jesus Christ on our behalf through His life, death and resurrection.
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Read it again! I said that NO THEORY is "THE" Gospel!
There is no virtue in believing a lie. Every doctrine has a ripple effect, especially the Atonement. When you twist everything you read in alignment with a bad assumption, you do not arrive at a Biblical answer.
Imagine an airplane that has been set on autopilot for a course from New York to San Jose, California. The co-pilot sets the bearing of the aircraft, but unknowingly, he enters in a course that is a mere tenth of a degree off of what it should have been. When the pilot looks out of his window over Cleveland, Ohio, he thinks to himself "we are right on course." Everything appears to be going as it is supposed to be, so he assumes that everything is alright. No adjustment seems necessary, so no corrections are made.
Right now, they are only ten miles off of their course, but that is not enough for them to notice that there is a problem. The problem is that as they continue, the farther they will be deviating from their desired target. When they descend to land in San Jose, they will be hundreds of miles off course.
Theology is a lot like our pilot's example. If we are off at the beginning of our theology, even by a little, and follow our conclusions to their logical end throughout the rest of our theology, we will be far off our course and not even know it! If we move away from the Bible as the basis of our theology, we can only expect to off course through the rest of it.
Not all errors and deviations are spiritually fatal; but many are! We must all realize that while many would like to make the Bible teach something from their own theological imagination, by doing so they are deviating from the truth if it is not first founded upon the Scriptures. Accurate theology is vital for those who want to know the truth; there is no virtue in believing a lie!
It is PSA that teaches that God is not Merciful and does not deal with man by Grace, but by Payment. I believe in Grace and Mercy. You have never seen me deny it, so don't imply it!
Prove it!
Is it an assumption that you force God into a box you created?
You assert this, so here is your opportunity to prove it! I am open to considering anything Biblical that you find. It would be interesting to see where the Bible says that Atonement "satisfies the Justice of God."
It would also be an interesting study to see how God is still the Ultimate God when He "has to" answer to a Higher Power called "Justice"! Should we bypass the "lesser" God of the Bible and just go straight to the God called "Justice"?
If you want to go out on a shield of heresy that cannot save, that is your choice! Even God will not stop you! What you teach denies real and adequate Justice, and Mercy! If you are placing your faith and salvation on a THEORY that is not in the Bible, and was not invented until the 1500's, you are not believing the Gospel of the Early Church and the first 1500 years of Christian history!
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You have read it correctly.
I originally did not mention anyone as the topic can be addressed all by itself.
This systematic theology was the first one I read, maybe 40 years ago. It was one of my first books in my library since you want to know.
I had read an elementary one by Emery Bancroft first. I was told Berkof was one of the best, so I bought it.
I do not see where you refuted anything posted.
I am sure you imagine that you have.
You then suggest I offer it as a substitute for the bible?
No, of course not.
Those numbers he offers are bible verses that the reader is supposed to look up like the Bereans did in Acts 17.
Perhaps if you took some time to look up the chapter and verses offered that would help you.
Did I say such a thing? Can you quote me saying that? I think you are not looking for answers so I cannot be of help to you.
You appealed to the logical fallacy of popularity and numbers as your proof of why you thing Berkhof is right. It was YOUR appeal to this bad logic that shuts you off to truth and answers.
I am correct; as usual... that you appealed to Berkhof being true because so many more people read him than me! You can try to evade it, but it cannot be denied that you said it!
So, you were "told" that Berkhof "was the best..." do you always let people tell you what to believe? Since you have read Berkhof, and you believe he is correct, I am sure that he must agree with you that "Penal Substitution is the gospel." Could you give me that page number? Surely, I must know him better than you do, because I have two copies of his theology in my library! (Since numbers seem to count for so much of your argument)!
You "tossed the elephant" with a cut-and-paste data dump of Berkhof to counter what you could not answer yourself, as if throwing a "Name" at me as a response would be a trump card to prove me wrong. I took your trump card and showed you it was a Joker. The only answer you have is unthinking denial, and that Berkhof has millions of followers... and you jump on the post I make to explain your misrepresentation of what I actually said to be ignored hat-in-hand, because I did not throw Scripture at you? If all your answers are based on logical fallacies, you would think that the light would eventually come on that you don't have an argument!
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As a young Christian I started to learn the value of building up library of solid study material. I found a Pastor that had started a book ministry and he was very familiar with most of the theology books having owned and read most of them.
I didn't think it was a bad idea to ask him which was one of the best and he recommended Berkhof even though we are both baptists ,he recommended Louis Berkhof saying on most all the areas hes going to get you close to the truth.
Now with any trusted guide you always have to examine what they say and look up the versus if you take time and look up the versus they have the chapter and another verse number you can read the verses and see what you can see from it or not see from it.
I do not recall saying that I always let people tell me what to believe I don't recall saying that?
why do you why do you assume such a thing?
why do you try to be a spokesman for me?
I am beginning to suspect you have an agenda as I have seen such things before.
You say you have two copies of His systematic theology?
Why would you buy the second copy if you did not like the first?
Lets try and get back to the topic.
I can answer anything you have to offer,but you are not the topic of the OP.
You have shown many errors already but are not looking for correction so I cannot help you.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
Christ had to suffer and die under the same powers that held mankind in bondage in order to free us from that curse. He had to be made a curse for us, "made sin" to free us from the bondage of sin. The reason is mankind had to have another "Adam" and another "birth".
The reason the cross (the Roman cross) was necessary is apparent in Jesus' parables. Jesus had to die under the power of those He came to save. Rome represented the power of the world in first century Jerusalem. It was the oppressive secular power. Jesus had to die unjustly at the hands of wicked men rather than under the Law at the hands of Jewish leaders (who handed Jim over).
What Jesus' death accomplished was a "new creation" or a new kind of mankind. Jesus became the Firstborn of many to come. He purchased mankind by His own blood.
Not only was Jesus' death absolutely necessary but the cross itself was necessary. It had to be a Roman cross at the hands of wicked men. His death had to be unjust by the powers of evil, not at the hand of God.
This is not only my answer, but this was the answer of Christianity for the first millennia. The reason Christ had to die under my view should be well understood even by those who reject it as accurate. It has been no kept secret.
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
The answer has been given throughout history. The position I hold is well established and documented. I do not understand how anyone could miss how it (or PSA, for that matter) necessities the work of the Cross.
I do not mean to sound rude, but you should know these views before debating against them.
Anthony, you do not think you did anything wrong, I do - so we will have to agree to disagree and draw a line under it.
I did read the posts and to be honest I am still weighing the answers up - I do not agree with everything that you say, I don’t agree with many things that are posted on this forum. I interpreted the OP to mean that someone was denying that the cross happened , so my first response was in line with that. John did not deny the cross in that way ( unless I have missed something - I haven’t looked at the other thread ) I wasn’t about to play into your game of attacking someone else because they see things differently when I have to consider what I believe first. I sometimes have to work out exactly what someone is saying. I have a very simple faith, and can not argue theology in the same way as others at times.
Rita x
John Caldwell
Well-Known Member
That is one issue. People choose commentators that support their view and offer them as evidence that their position is correct. Without this mentality PSA most likely never would have been invented. People like you and I ask for Scripture and we will always get commentators and some explanation of what Scripture "really" means - never Scripture itself proving PSA.
But in a way, this is where our culture is today. Biblical illiteracy is an issue today not for lack of Scripture but for excess of opinions and "tools". Today people look for short-cuts. Why study Scripture when men like John Gill, Louis Berkhof, and Arthur Pink is here to tell you what to believe? That is the mentality.
When teaching how to study Scripture I always emphasize to stay away from commentaries. Prayerfully read Scripture (the entire book you are studying). Then look at the passage in context. Once you have made a conclusion then read commentaries and evaluate your conclusion with the interpretations of others. Make sure you have not invented a new interpretation. That is also where PSA went wrong. It was a new interpretation. Prior to the 16th Century no one believed that the Father punished the Son instead of punishing us to satisfy divine justice so that men could be forgiven. Antiquity does not make a doctrine correct, but invention is a good indication it may be wrong.
Hello Rita,
Thanks for your response.
A message board can help us all think out what we believe based on scripture.
To make this issue simple;
1] A Holy God is going to punish all sin
2]The sinner will be punished, or
The Divine Substitute will be.
Jesus is the God given substitute.
The term Penal substitutionary atonement is the teaching of the believing Church.
Penal...a penalty is to be paid
Substitutionary....someone takes our penalty and pays the debt.
Atonement...satisfying the laws penalty and providing us His righteousness, we are now reconciled , and have peace with God,
Rom5:1
That is why there is no condemnation for Gods elect.
Rom 8:1....8:29-39
Thank you , could you add scripture where I have underlined - just for my own reference. I obviously have a viewpoint already, but must admit I have not heard of penal substitution atonement, just heard of atonement.
@John Caldwell - I wonder if you wouldn’t mind explaining , in a simple way , what it is you believe ( with bible references ) not for the nature of debate, but just so that I can work out exactly what you are both disagreeing on - I am sure you have said the same thing, but obviously I am missing something xx
Sometimes theology is like reading one of the tax letters from the inland revenue ( IRS to you ) you think you have understood what they have said, but in reality you haven’t.
Many thanks xx
Rita
