WAYS THAT AMILS GET ZECHARIAH 14 WRONG

[Davy]

I'm mostly addressing Truth7t7's post in the thread "How Many Judgments of Being Cast Into the Lake of Fire Are There?.

The Zechariah 14 Chapter is about Christ's future 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord". Both Apostles Paul and Peter mentioned on that "day of the Lord" that it will be a day of destruction, as they both were pulling that idea from The Old Testament prophets.

One of the problems with the Amil doctrine from man. The Amillennial doctrine of man is a 2nd century doctrine that is attributed to those like Clement and Origen of the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt, who turned many literal events written in The Bible into spiritual allegories. Origen himself was excommunicated from the Church because of doing that. All the 1st century Church fathers, including Christ's Apostles, believed in a Premillennial reign by Lord Jesus that begins on the day of His future return. By the 2nd century A.D., crept in unawares had introduced their false Amil doctrines, as the 2nd century also was the advent of Gnosticism creeping into the Christian Church.

Another problem with the false doctrine of Amil, is that it mistakes the coming event of God's "consuming fire" as being a final judgment into the future "lake of fire". This is an easy mistake to make, because even today many brethren think hell is the same as the "lake of fire" event when it is not. Per Revelation 20:14 death and hell are cast into the future "lake of fire". Amils make this same mistake.


Another error Amils make, which many brethren in all Christian branches make also, is being ignorant of what Apostle Peter was teaching about in the 2 Peter 3 Chapter involving world earth ages...

According to Peter in 2 Peter 3, there are 3 WORLD EARTH AGES...

1. "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:" = 1st world earth age.
2. "the heavens and the earth, which are now" = 2nd world earth age.
3. "new heavens and a new earth" = 3rd world earth age.

At present, we are still in the 2nd world earth age. It began at Genesis 1:3 forward, not Genesis 1:1.

Peter says that some are "willingly ignorant" of that 1st world earth age that God destroyed with waters of a flood (not Noah's flood)...

2 Peter 3:5-6
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
KJV

That phrase, "that by the word of God the heavens were old old," is about God's original creation in the "beginning" at Genesis 1:1. That was the 1st world earth age, a time when Lucifer was perfect in his ways with following God (see about the "king of Tyrus" in Ezekiel 28, a parable about Lucifer's original high status before he rebelled, the king of Tyrus used as a type for Satan). At Genesis 1:2, per the Hebrew tohu va bohu, translated as "without form, and void" in the KJV Bible, it actually means the earth had become an indistinguishable waste and a ruin. At Gen.1:2 the earth is shown covered with waters of a flood. And then afterwards God begins moving those waters that covering the whole earth, forming today's sky around the earth, and moving the rest of the waters around upon the surface of the earth, revealing the earth was there underneath those waters already. That is stage of the earth Peter was describing with, "and the earth standing out of the water, and in the water."

The Church tradition teaches instead that Genesis 1:1 is like a topical summary creation statement, with all the details that follow being a pointer back to verse 1. Not so.

Genesis 1:1 was God's original PERFECT CREATION prior to Lucifer's rebellion. Then Lucifer rebelled in coveting God's Throne for himself, and God ended that 1st world original creation, but not totally. At Genesis 1:2 is the state of the earth AFTER God had ended His original perfect creation in the beginning. Thus there was an unknown time period between verse 1 and verse 2. And after Genesis 1:2, it is about God refurbishing His original creation up to a point, yet placing it for this 2nd world earth in bondage of corruption.

This all might be new to your ears, as it is not often taught in many Churches today. Yet it is taught in some Christian Churches that have a 'teaching' pastor familiar with Biblical Hebrew. It is definitely not part of Pop Christianity if that's what you're into.

In Romans 8:18-25, Apostle Paul taught that God placed His creation in "vanity", in "bondage of corruption." In other words, today's 2nd world earth age is NOT a perfect creation. And God made this so. Per Jeremiah 4:23-28, God further explains that He destroyed that 'old world' He first created, the phrase "without form, and void" used there again, but about a destruction upon the earth that happened long ago. God then said for this reason, the earth (today) would mourn, and the heavens above would be black (violent storms caused by hot and cold air mixing in the skies around the earth to produce today's weather and storms.)

Amillennialists are completely ignorant of that old 1st world earth age which God destroyed at Satan's fall.

Peter says that some are "willingly ignorant" of that flood when the earth perished (1st earth age). Were the Jews of old Israel ignorant of the flood of Noah's day? Nope, for Moses wrote about the flood of Noah's day. That means Peter was definitely not... pointing to the flood of Noah's day with that 1st world earth age that perished by waters of a flood upon the earth. The flood of Noah's day happened within this present 2nd world earth age.

a. 1st world earth age - perished by a flood of waters upon the earth.
b. 2nd world earth age - earth surface 'temporarily' destroyed by waters of a flood in Noah's day, and thus preserved unto destruction by God's consuming fire.
c. 3rd world earth age - the new heavens and a new earth with NO wicked, NO evil, NO devil, NO death, NO hunger, etc.

EVENT ORDER PER GOD'S WORD:
1. 1st world earth age: a perfect creation, comparable to the future new heavens and a new earth.
Lucifer perfect in his ways following God, and highly exalted in God's Eden. No flesh man yet.
a. Lucifer rebels against God, coveting God's Throne for himself, wanting to be God.
b. God brings a flood of waters upon his original perfect creation to end that old world.

2. 2nd world earth age: at Genesis 1:2 the earth's surface having been destroyed by waters of a flood.
a. God begins refurbishing His original creation up to a point, moving a portion of the waters overspread upon the earth up into the sky to make today's atmosphere around the earth.
b. because sky holes are left in the atmosphere, it allows hot and cold weather fronts to form, causing today's violent weather storms.
c. God says for this reason, the earth mourns, and the heavens above be black (Jer.4). Rom.8 shows God placed His creation into "vanity", in "bondage of corruption", and it seeks a release from bondage.
d. Christ's 2nd coming and "thousand years" reign with His elect is part of this 2nd world earth age.
Peter says a 'day' to God is as a thousand years. Thus the "day of the Lord" phrase actually means that whole "thousand years" period of Revelation 20 about Christ's future reign over all nations starting at His future 2nd coming on that "day of the Lord."
e. Jesus builds the future Ezekiel Millennial temple sanctuary in Jerusalem on earth. All His elect saints are gathered to Him there at Jerusalem at that sanctuary while those of the nation of Israel and of the Church that fell away, stand in judgment are taught the difference between the holy and the profane, and the clean and the unclean, for a thousand years.
f. the wicked are placed outside the gates of the beloved city, pointing to Christ's idea of the "outer darkness". The righteous (Christ's elect) have the right to the Tree of Life inside the gates of the beloved city.
g. God's River and the Tree of Life of Genesis 2 is manifest back on earth, its waters flowing out from the Millennial temple which Jesus will build at His future 2nd coming.

3. 3rd world earth age: There is NO temple at this time, for The Father and The Son are The Temple of it (Rev.21). The Father and The Son both are here back on earth with His elect in a restored perfect creation. NO more devil, NO more death, NO more hunger, NO more hot or cold, NO more sea, etc.

(Continued...)

 

[Davy]

(Continued...)

With the Zechariah 14 Chapter, Amils carry into that Chapter their errors in not understanding the events I mentioned in my original post.

Both Apostles Paul and Peter showed a major destruction event upon the earth on the "day of the Lord", which is the day when Jesus' 2nd coming happens. That will end this present FLESH age of man in flesh bodies. All the dead will be raised on that day, and all those still alive on earth will be changed to their spirit bodies at the twinkling of an eye. (1 Cor.15; 1 Thess.4).

Jesus will come on that day with His army from Heaven to fight the battle of Armageddon. The nations He will fight against are 'specifically' listed in the Ezekiel 38 Chapter, so it is NOT about ALL nations coming up against Jerusalem on that day, but only those specific nations listed in God's Word. Many Amils make the error of trying to include ALL nations in that gathering around Israel at the battle of Armageddon.

On that 'same' "day of the Lord", Jesus brings ALL His elect saints with Him, their having first been gathered from the "air" during His descent to earth from Heaven. The asleep saints that had already died He brings with Him from Heaven. Those saints still alive on earth are then gathered up to Him in the "air" with those other saints. Then they all... go with Him to Jerusalem on earth, and His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives. (Zech.14).

On that same "day of the Lord", God's "consuming fire" of 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Hebrews 12 will burn all of man's works off the surface of this earth, much as the flood of Noah's day did using waters of a flood. It will NOT COMPLETELY DESTROY THE ENTIRE EARTH. We know that too, because the earth is still shown existing AFTER Christ's future return. This future "consuming fire" event on the day of Christ's future return Amils make the error of thinking it is the future "lake of fire" event. It is not. The "consuming fire" event that happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming is a separate event that simply will cleanse the earth's surface, and bring all into the future time of Christ's Millennial reign with His elect on earth. This is why Revelation 20 shows the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city" existing upon the earth during Christ's future reign. And even then, after that "thousand years" of Rev.20, another consuming fire event is shown that will happen upon the wicked of the nations which Satan leads upon that camp on earth per Rev.20.

Therefore, do NOT confuse the idea of Final Judgment with God's "consuming fire" events. Some make the mistake of thinking that 'hell' is the "lake of fire" when it is not. Per the end of Rev.20 the abode of the wicked called hell will go into the future "lake of fire" along with the concept of death. Only the time of the future "lake of fire" event is the Final Judgment, and it is shown only happening AFTER God's Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20. The Great White Throne Judgment is... the Final Judgment, and determines who in final will perish in the "lake of fire" along with death and the abode of hell.

 

[rwb]

The Zechariah 14 Chapter is about Christ's future 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord". Both Apostles Paul and Peter mentioned on that "day of the Lord" that it will be a day of destruction, as they both were pulling that idea from The Old Testament prophets.

Why would Zechariah prophesy about a future second coming of Christ? My understanding of the prophecies of Old is all pointing to the first coming of Christ when all that is written concerning Him would be fulfilled. It seems the prophets of Old simply believed the promised Messiah would come, and when He came all that was written regarding Him would be fulfilled. What the prophets had no knowledge about was how long the prophecies would take to be fulfilled. So, the prophecies beginning with the first advent of Christ shall be completely fulfilled when Christ, the promised Messiah comes the second time, but the prophets had no way of knowing that all that was foretold would encompass both the coming of Christ as Savior and Christ coming again in wrath.

 

[Davy]

Why would Zechariah prophesy about a future second coming of Christ? My understanding of the prophecies of Old is all pointing to the first coming of Christ when all that is written concerning Him would be fulfilled. It seems the prophets of Old simply believed the promised Messiah would come, and when He came all that was written regarding Him would be fulfilled. What the prophets had no knowledge about was how long the prophecies would take to be fulfilled. So, the prophecies beginning with the first advent of Christ shall be completely fulfilled when Christ, the promised Messiah comes the second time, but the prophets had no way of knowing that all that was foretold would encompass both the coming of Christ as Savior and Christ coming again in wrath.

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
KJV

If what you have been taught to believe by men's doctrines were true, like you are saying about Bible prophecy between The Old and New Testaments, then how is it that Enoch, the 7th from the man Adam, knew about Christ's future 2nd coming with His saints when Jesus will execute His Judgment upon the ungodly at His appearing a second time?

And what about all the "day of the Lord" prophetic events written of in The Old Testament prophets which have still yet to be fulfilled?

Even the Zechariah 9:9-10 verses cover the event of Christ's 1st coming, and then in verse 10 His 2nd coming which is still future to us...

Christ's 1st Coming:
Zech 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

The above prophecy was quoted in The Gospels about Jesus' first coming, like Matthew 21, John 12.

Christ's Future 2nd Coming:
Zech 9:10
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

But the above 10th verse is about Jesus' future 2nd coming when He will end all war and speak peace to the unsaved heathen, and will reign as KING over them, with "a rod of iron". The cutting off of the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem is about the strength as a world power which God gave the ten lost tribes under Ephraim in the last days, including Ephraim's support of the nation of Israel in the middle east. At Christ's future return, that won't be needed anymore, thus the "battle bow" of today's world will end after Jesus' 2nd coming. That "river" suggests God's River mentioned in Genesis 2, Ezekiel 47, and Zechariah 14 having returned to earth that will flow out of God's "house" at Jerusalem under Christ's future reign there.

 

[rwb]

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints,
15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
KJV

If what you have been taught to believe by men's doctrines were true, like you are saying about Bible prophecy between The Old and New Testaments, then how is it that Enoch, the 7th from the man Adam, knew about Christ's future 2nd coming with His saints when Jesus will execute His Judgment upon the ungodly at His appearing a second time?

And what about all the "day of the Lord" prophetic events written of in The Old Testament prophets which have still yet to be fulfilled?

Even the Zechariah 9:9-10 verses cover the event of Christ's 1st coming, and then in verse 10 His 2nd coming which is still future to us...

Christ's 1st Coming:
Zech 9:9
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.

The above prophecy was quoted in The Gospels about Jesus' first coming, like Matthew 21, John 12.

Christ's Future 2nd Coming:
Zech 9:10
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
KJV

But the above 10th verse is about Jesus' future 2nd coming when He will end all war and speak peace to the unsaved heathen, and will reign as KING over them, with "a rod of iron". The cutting off of the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem is about the strength as a world power which God gave the ten lost tribes under Ephraim in the last days, including Ephraim's support of the nation of Israel in the middle east. At Christ's future return, that won't be needed anymore, thus the "battle bow" of today's world will end after Jesus' 2nd coming. That "river" suggests God's River mentioned in Genesis 2, Ezekiel 47, and Zechariah 14 having returned to earth that will flow out of God's "house" at Jerusalem under Christ's future reign there.

You're making an assumption! All who live after the first advent of Christ understand that Messiah that was to come would both come with salvation to all who believe, and that He shall also come again in wrath to judge the world. NONE of the Old Testament prophets have this information! Because none of them lived to see the coming of the promised Messiah, our Lord Jesus Christ. So, all of the prophecies believed that when the Messiah came, He would fulfill everything they prophesied of Him. The prophecies only make sense when we interpret them through the FACT that the Messiah has come. In trying to understand the prophets we also must also remember that when the promised Messiah came, it would be with the spiritual Kingdom of God, that is not of this world and cannot be physically seen because the Kingdom Christ came with is in believers. IOW we must use what is spiritually speaking of Christ in the New Testament to understand that which written in shadow and figurative language using physical things to bring to light spiritual truths.

 

[Davy]

You're making an assumption! All who live after the first advent of Christ understand that Messiah that was to come would both come with salvation to all who believe, and that He shall also come again in wrath to judge the world. NONE of the Old Testament prophets have this information!

Boy, I strongly disagree with you on that. A remnant of God's chosen back in Old Testament times did know about God's Promise by Faith. Apostle Paul in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 even showed how Abraham was first to have The Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to him. And in John 8:56 Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day, and he saw it, and was glad.

Men's traditions (mostly from false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan") of course go directly against that above Biblical Truth about the elect Old Testament saints.

 

[Davidpt]

Why would Zechariah prophesy about a future second coming of Christ? My understanding of the prophecies of Old is all pointing to the first coming of Christ when all that is written concerning Him would be fulfilled. It seems the prophets of Old simply believed the promised Messiah would come, and when He came all that was written regarding Him would be fulfilled. What the prophets had no knowledge about was how long the prophecies would take to be fulfilled. So, the prophecies beginning with the first advent of Christ shall be completely fulfilled when Christ, the promised Messiah comes the second time, but the prophets had no way of knowing that all that was foretold would encompass both the coming of Christ as Savior and Christ coming again in wrath.

It might be different if you were unintelligent or something, thus have a valid excuse as to why you don't comprehend some of these things. Except you are not unintelligent, therefore, you have no valid excuse as to why you are unwilling to comprehend some of these things.

So why are you unable to figure out by now that both comings were recorded in the OT? Except the 2nd coming was hidden then revealed in the NT. It is absurd beyond belief, that the OT never knew anything about a 2nd coming. Take Daniel 12:2, for instance. How do you suppose that verse ever gets fulfilled without it involving a 2nd coming? Think outside of the box and quit with this nonsense that the OT knows of no 2nd coming even though Daniel 12:2 alone proves it does.

And what about a passage like the following?

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David.>> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Inquiring minds want to know how this passage cannot lead to a 2nd coming? In order to even fulfill that verse He has to come first, which He already did. But is He then stuck in limbo for forever sitting on His right hand? Of course not. After all this verse has an 'until' as part of it. No one that I know of would insist that 'until' means there is no end to something eventually. Therefore, even in this verse a 2nd coming is hidden in it since this 'until' implies a 2nd coming, which of course the NT has already revealed.

Be reasonable about things at least. It is unreasonable that Zechariah 14 is not involving a 2nd coming when Zechariah 14:12 alone proves it is. As if anything in the past 2000 years could possibly explain this--Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I don't even want to waste time discussing anything with any unreasonable person who insists verse 12 has already been fulfilled, or that it can get fulfilled without involving the day of the Lord. Only Preterists and Pretribbers have the day of the Lord disconnected from the 2nd coming. Are you in either of those groups? I know you are not a Pretribber. Are you perhaps a Preterist then? Why would you deny that verse 12 is fulfilled during the vials of wrath, the day of the Lord? How do the vials of wrath not involve the 2nd coming at some point?

Not to mention, something @Davy has already brought up, Zechariah 14:5 is also echoed in the NT in the book of Jude. Therefore, it is absurd for someone to agree that the book of Jude records the 2nd coming but then insist Zechariah 14:5 doesn't. Totally unreasonable, thus doctrinally biased.

 

[rwb]

Boy, I strongly disagree with you on that. A remnant of God's chosen back in Old Testament times did know about God's Promise by Faith. Apostle Paul in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 even showed how Abraham was first to have The Gospel of Jesus Christ preached to him. And in John 8:56 Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see Christ's day, and he saw it, and was glad.

Men's traditions (mostly from false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan") of course go directly against that above Biblical Truth about the elect Old Testament saints.

The Old Testament congregation of Christ, like Abraham heard of the Messiah who would come, but none of them had been given to understand that when He came it would be with the Kingdom of God, and that Kingdom would not be a physical kingdom on this earth but a spiritual Kingdom of God that would not be of this world, would not come with observation and would be within you. They did not understand the spiritual nature of the Kingdom of God that Christ came with. They knew nothing of the fact that only those who are born again would be able to know (see) and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven. How could any of the Old Covenant people know a man must be born again, or even how a man would be born again! They had no understanding of spiritual re-birth through the Spirit of Christ would be the only way man could know and enter the Kingdom of God. Why? Because they believed the promised Messiah would come a warrior King like King David. They looked for a physical Kingdom and for this reason only the chosen elect remnant of Old was saved. Even the first century Messianic Jewish believers did not understand this until Christ sent His Spirit to dwell in them.

All the Old Covenant congregation were given to know was that the Messiah would come and for those who believed the Messiah would come according to grace through faith would be saved through Him. Through the Law and Prophets of Old the gospel of peace was proclaimed to them. The remnant of Old believed and by faith, like Abraham, were accounted righteous.

Romans 10:12-21 (KJV) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

As proof that Christ came with the spiritual Kingdom of God, He cast out devils and demons.

Matthew 12:28 (KJV) But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

John 18:36-37 (KJV) Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[rwb]

It might be different if you were unintelligent or something, thus have a valid excuse as to why you don't comprehend some of these things. Except you are not unintelligent, therefore, you have no valid excuse as to why you are unwilling to comprehend some of these things.

So why are you unable to figure out by now that both comings were recorded in the OT? Except the 2nd coming was hidden then revealed in the NT. It is absurd beyond belief, that the OT never knew anything about a 2nd coming. Take Daniel 12:2, for instance. How do you suppose that verse ever gets fulfilled without it involving a 2nd coming? Think outside of the box and quit with this nonsense that the OT knows of no 2nd coming even though Daniel 12:2 alone proves it does.

And what about a passage like the following?

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David.>> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Inquiring minds want to know how this passage cannot lead to a 2nd coming? In order to even fulfill that verse He has to come first, which He already did. But is He then stuck in limbo for forever sitting on His right hand? Of course not. After all this verse has an 'until' as part of it. No one that I know of would insist that 'until' means there is no end to something eventually. Therefore, even in this verse a 2nd coming is hidden in it since this 'until' implies a 2nd coming, which of course the NT has already revealed.

Be reasonable about things at least. It is unreasonable that Zechariah 14 is not involving a 2nd coming when Zechariah 14:12 alone proves it is. As if anything in the past 2000 years could possibly explain this--Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I don't even want to waste time discussing anything with any unreasonable person who insists verse 12 has already been fulfilled, or that it can get fulfilled without involving the day of the Lord. Only Preterists and Pretribbers have the day of the Lord disconnected from the 2nd coming. Are you in either of those groups? I know you are not a Pretribber. Are you perhaps a Preterist then? Why would you deny that verse 12 is fulfilled during the vials of wrath, the day of the Lord? How do the vials of wrath not involve the 2nd coming at some point?

Not to mention, something @Davy has already brought up, Zechariah 14:5 is also echoed in the NT in the book of Jude. Therefore, it is absurd for someone to agree that the book of Jude records the 2nd coming but then insist Zechariah 14:5 doesn't. Totally unreasonable, thus doctrinally biased.

Yes, both the first advent and Christ's Second Coming are recorded through the Prophets. However you won't find a single Prophet of Old speaking of the coming of the promised Messiah coming twice. All the prophets of Old prophesy of the Messiah who would one day come. They all prophesied of the day of the Lord coming with both salvation and wrath, but NONE of them prophesy two separate comings of the Lord.

This Psalm is prophetic where David is given to know the Messiah would come and when He came David prophesies of Him being seated at the right hand of the LORD in heaven. The Messiah to come is sent by the LORD out of Zion, to rule over His enemies with a rod of iron. The rod of iron is the Word of God.

Matthew 21:5 (KJV) Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.

Romans 9:33 (KJV) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 11:26 (KJV) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Psalm 110:1-7 (KJV) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

This prophesy was fulfilled when both as Lord and Christ came to earth a man. Nothing here to prove the Old Covenant people prophesied of two separate comings of the Lord. David prophesies of the coming of the LORD to rule over thine enemies, and of Melchizedek, the High Priest pertaining to Christ, coming in wrath to judge among the heathen (unbelievers). But David does not speak of the Messiah or Lord coming more than one time.

Acts 2:34-37 (KJV) For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

 

[Davy]

The Old Testament congregation of Christ, like Abraham heard of the Messiah who would come, but none of them had been given to understand that when He came it would be with the Kingdom of God, and that Kingdom would not be a physical kingdom on this earth but a spiritual Kingdom of God that would not be of this world, would not come with observation and would be within you. They did not understand the spiritual nature of the Kingdom of God that Christ came with. They knew nothing of the fact that only those who are born again would be able to know (see) and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven. How could any of the Old Covenant people know a man must be born again, or even how a man would be born again! They had no understanding of spiritual re-birth through the Spirit of Christ would be the only way man could know and enter the Kingdom of God. Why? Because they believed the promised Messiah would come a warrior King like King David. They looked for a physical Kingdom and for this reason only the chosen elect remnant of Old was saved. Even the first century Messianic Jewish believers did not understand this until Christ sent His Spirit to dwell in them.

All the Old Covenant congregation were given to know was that the Messiah would come and for those who believed the Messiah would come according to grace through faith would be saved through Him. Through the Law and Prophets of Old the gospel of peace was proclaimed to them. The remnant of Old believed and by faith, like Abraham, were accounted righteous.

What then did Lord Jesus mean when He said the following to the blind Pharisees?

John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
KJV

What did Apostle Paul mean when in Hebrews 7 he pointed to Jesus of Nazareth The Christ as the Melchisedec of The Old Testament who met Abraham, and offered Abraham "bread and wine"? and that Abraham tithed to Melchisedec, even before the Levitical priesthood even existed?

Heb 7:1-6
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
KJV
....
13 For He of Whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
KJV

A remnant of old Israel did... know about Christ's Salvation and Kingdom. I agree they were not yet sure how it would manifest, but they knew the Promises God had made to them about it, which are recorded in both Old and New Testament Scriptures.

But it's almost as bad with the deceived blinded Jews today, because they think it's up to them in Jerusalem to fulfill the building of a 3rd temple and startup old covenant worship again with animal sacrifices. So they are still dwelling in a fleshy state of mind about God's Kingdom, just as many Christian denominations today are also sided with those deceived Jews in their plans for Jerusalem. Some Christian leaders even try to use the false claim of wanting to help the unbelieving Jews startup old covenant worship again in Jerusalem because they claim it will usher in Christ's coming that much faster. What a lame idea by so-called Christians, which really shows those thinking that are actually promoting Judaism.

 

[rwb]

What then did Lord Jesus mean when He said the following to the blind Pharisees?

John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
KJV

Abraham, being the father of the faithful believed God and rejoiced to prophetically be given knowledge of (see) the prophesy fulfilled through his biological seed Isaac from whom the promised (Seed) Messiah, Savior would be born. The desire of Abraham was NOT for the physical promised land of Old, where he saw himself as stranger and pilgrim on the earth. His heart's desire was a far better country, that is an heavenly country prepared for them a city, Heavenly Jerusalem not of this world but from above.

Hebrews 11:11-19 (KJV) Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

What did Apostle Paul mean when in Hebrews 7 he pointed to Jesus of Nazareth The Christ as the Melchisedec of The Old Testament who met Abraham, and offered Abraham "bread and wine"? and that Abraham tithed to Melchisedec, even before the Levitical priesthood even existed?

Heb 7:1-6
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
KJV
....
13 For He of Whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
KJV

Many believe Melchisedec of Old was an epiphany, a manifestation of Christ to Abraham, to which I also believe. By giving Him a tithe Abraham acknowledges He is "by interpretation the King of righteousness" and "King of peace." Proving the promised Messiah as both King and High Priest even though He came not through traditional lineage of Aaron, but through the line of Judah.

A remnant of old Israel did... know about Christ's Salvation and Kingdom. I agree they were not yet sure how it would manifest, but they knew the Promises God had made to them about it, which are recorded in both Old and New Testament Scriptures.

Yes, this is what I believe. The remnant believed (had faith) through the Law and what is written in the Prophets of Old, without understanding that when Christ came the Kingdom of God He would bring would not be a physical Kingdom but is a spiritual Kingdom. That's why when Christ came only the remnant believed in Him, while the majority of the nation of Old were fixated and still are on a literal, physical Kingdom in the same way dispensationalists as well as others today do. The majority did not enter into the Kingdom of God when they heard the gospel preached because they believed the promised Messiah would come with mighty military force to destroy their enemies, and Christ coming as the humble servant simply did not fit what they believed.

But it's almost as bad with the deceived blinded Jews today, because they think it's up to them in Jerusalem to fulfill the building of a 3rd temple and startup old covenant worship again with animal sacrifices. So they are still dwelling in a fleshy state of mind about God's Kingdom, just as many Christian denominations today are also sided with those deceived Jews in their plans for Jerusalem. Some Christian leaders even try to use the false claim of wanting to help the unbelieving Jews startup old covenant worship again in Jerusalem because they claim it will usher in Christ's coming that much faster. What a lame idea by so-called Christians, which really shows those thinking that are actually promoting Judaism.

Yes, I agree! Orthodox Zionist Jews, as well as Christian Zionists are not friends of the nation of Israel. Promoting doctrine that tries to bring back the things the advent of Christ has abolished is promoting a lie that will lead many to utter death in the lake of fire.

 

[Davidpt]

However you won't find a single Prophet of Old speaking of the coming of the promised Messiah coming twice.

Before we can proceed further, we need to get on the same page here. What exactly are you meaning by this? Especially when a 1st coming and a 2nd coming equals 2 comings, does it not? Which then seems to contradict what you just said prior to that--Yes, both the first advent and Christ's Second Coming are recorded through the Prophets.

Psalm 110:1-7 (KJV) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

This prophesy was fulfilled when both as Lord and Christ came to earth a man. Nothing here to prove the Old Covenant people prophesied of two separate comings of the Lord. David prophesies of the coming of the LORD to rule over thine enemies, and of Melchizedek, the High Priest pertaining to Christ, coming in wrath to judge among the heathen (unbelievers). But David does not speak of the Messiah or Lord coming more than one time.

Actually, Psalm 110:1-7 has two comings hidden with in it when you think about it. Sit thou at my right hand--this implies a first coming. After all, until He comes first, which He already did, He can't be doing this in the meantime--Sit thou at my right hand.

until I make thine enemies thy footstool--implies a 2nd coming, which the NT indeed reveals is the case.

And where I come from 1 + 1 = 2 not 1. Thus Christ comes twice. Yet you argue He doesn't come twice. I can't figure out what you are arguing and why?

 

[amigo de christo]

It might be different if you were unintelligent or something, thus have a valid excuse as to why you don't comprehend some of these things. Except you are not unintelligent, therefore, you have no valid excuse as to why you are unwilling to comprehend some of these things.

So why are you unable to figure out by now that both comings were recorded in the OT? Except the 2nd coming was hidden then revealed in the NT. It is absurd beyond belief, that the OT never knew anything about a 2nd coming. Take Daniel 12:2, for instance. How do you suppose that verse ever gets fulfilled without it involving a 2nd coming? Think outside of the box and quit with this nonsense that the OT knows of no 2nd coming even though Daniel 12:2 alone proves it does.

And what about a passage like the following?

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David.>> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Inquiring minds want to know how this passage cannot lead to a 2nd coming? In order to even fulfill that verse He has to come first, which He already did. But is He then stuck in limbo for forever sitting on His right hand? Of course not. After all this verse has an 'until' as part of it. No one that I know of would insist that 'until' means there is no end to something eventually. Therefore, even in this verse a 2nd coming is hidden in it since this 'until' implies a 2nd coming, which of course the NT has already revealed.

Be reasonable about things at least. It is unreasonable that Zechariah 14 is not involving a 2nd coming when Zechariah 14:12 alone proves it is. As if anything in the past 2000 years could possibly explain this--Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I don't even want to waste time discussing anything with any unreasonable person who insists verse 12 has already been fulfilled, or that it can get fulfilled without involving the day of the Lord. Only Preterists and Pretribbers have the day of the Lord disconnected from the 2nd coming. Are you in either of those groups? I know you are not a Pretribber. Are you perhaps a Preterist then? Why would you deny that verse 12 is fulfilled during the vials of wrath, the day of the Lord? How do the vials of wrath not involve the 2nd coming at some point?

Not to mention, something @Davy has already brought up, Zechariah 14:5 is also echoed in the NT in the book of Jude. Therefore, it is absurd for someone to agree that the book of Jude records the 2nd coming but then insist Zechariah 14:5 doesn't. Totally unreasonable, thus doctrinally biased.

Verily verily i say
truly truly i do say
That the wisdom of this world is FOOLISHNESS with GOD and that no matter how world wise and intelligent
one was , that mind cannot comprehend the things that be of GOD .
And now i must also give a warning .
Let no man , woman or child ever heed pre trib or a preterist .
Rather let us learn and read the bible for ourselves .
And now for the most dire warning of all .
Let no man , woman or child sit under any who is a co helper too ECUMEINCAL interfaith .

 

[rwb]

Before we can proceed further, we need to get on the same page here. What exactly are you meaning by this? Especially when a 1st coming and a 2nd coming equals 2 comings, does it not? Which then seems to contradict what you just said prior to that--Yes, both the first advent and Christ's Second Coming are recorded through the Prophets.

The point is, the Prophets foretell only of ONE coming of the Lord when all that is written of Him would be fulfilled. A contradiction is forced into the Bible when we argue the Prophets of Old foretell TWO and not ONE coming of the Messiah. It is true the Prophets foretell of the Messiah coming as both Savior and with Judgment and wrath, they write of this coming to pass when the promised Messiah was to come.

Actually, Psalm 110:1-7 has two comings hidden with in it when you think about it. Sit thou at my right hand--this implies a first coming. After all, until He comes first, which He already did, He can't be doing this in the meantime--Sit thou at my right hand.

until I make thine enemies thy footstool--implies a 2nd coming, which the NT indeed reveals is the case.

Again, the point is the Prophets of Old do indeed prophesy of ALL that shall come to pass when the promised Messiah would come! But they never speak of this as encompassing TWO separate comings of the Messiah. Why would they write the Messiah would have to come back again since they believed all they foretell of Him would be fulfilled when He finally came?

 

[WPM]

What then did Lord Jesus mean when He said the following to the blind Pharisees?

John 8:56-58
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto Him, "Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast Thou seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am."
KJV

What did Apostle Paul mean when in Hebrews 7 he pointed to Jesus of Nazareth The Christ as the Melchisedec of The Old Testament who met Abraham, and offered Abraham "bread and wine"? and that Abraham tithed to Melchisedec, even before the Levitical priesthood even existed?

Heb 7:1-6
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
KJV
....
13 For He of Whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
KJV

A remnant of old Israel did... know about Christ's Salvation and Kingdom. I agree they were not yet sure how it would manifest, but they knew the Promises God had made to them about it, which are recorded in both Old and New Testament Scriptures.

But it's almost as bad with the deceived blinded Jews today, because they think it's up to them in Jerusalem to fulfill the building of a 3rd temple and startup old covenant worship again with animal sacrifices. So they are still dwelling in a fleshy state of mind about God's Kingdom, just as many Christian denominations today are also sided with those deceived Jews in their plans for Jerusalem. Some Christian leaders even try to use the false claim of wanting to help the unbelieving Jews startup old covenant worship again in Jerusalem because they claim it will usher in Christ's coming that much faster. What a lame idea by so-called Christians, which really shows those thinking that are actually promoting Judaism.

There is rarely a theological argument presented by Premils explaining their position on Revelation 20 that does not submit Zechariah 14 as supporting evidence for their position. Premils talk as if these two texts fit together neatly to support their viewpoint. The only problem is, careful study of both will find there is no correlation between the detail in Zechariah 14 and that in Revelation 20. Trying to associate one with the other is like putting a square peg into a round whole. The detail is completely different.

First of all, Zechariah 14 makes absolutely no allusion to a future 1,000 years after the second coming, or does Zechariah 14 compare with any of the detail outlined in Revelation 20 (start, middle or finish). The detail occurring at the end of Revelation 20 only compares with the many passages relating to Christ’s one final future all-consummating Second Advent – there we see the destruction of every enemy of Christ and righteousness.

A helpful pointer that should aid the open-minded reader dissect the book of Zechariah is the phrase “in that day.” It connects the whole book together. It is mentioned 20 times in this Old Testament prophecy. It is extremely notable that reference after reference to “in that day” actually refers to the 1st Advent. Zechariah 14 also describes AD 70 and the spread of the Gospel to the darkened nations.

AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry. There are a mixture of events relating to the life and ministry of Christ, Jerusalem's judgment (AD 70), the going out of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Notwithstanding, these are all tied together in Christ – and cannot be divorced one from another. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

Second, as you study the New Testament you see that the wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes, this disallows the placing of this after the second coming. There will be no mortals or no sinners to populate the new earth, what is more, they are prohibited from inheriting it (Matthew 25:34 &25:46, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Corinthians 15:50).

Thirdly, the keeping of the Judaic sacrificial system has been eternally abolished (see Galatians 4:9-10, Colossians 2:14, 16, 20-22 ). Many of the place names in Jerusalem don't exist anymore. Localized worship in a brick temple in Jerusalem has gone forever. We now "worship" God "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:21).

Fourthly, while the prophet Zechariah uses Old Testament vernacular, he seems to be looking forward to a brighter and better day. He is anticipating the coming Messiah, a new order and a final sacrifice for sin. He is looking to a day where the nations will experience the favor of God.

It is difficult to decipher because it is written in a type of apocalyptic form, which contains a mixture of literal and cryptic language. and must be understood in the symbolic way in which it is written.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

(Continued...)

With the Zechariah 14 Chapter, Amils carry into that Chapter their errors in not understanding the events I mentioned in my original post.

Both Apostles Paul and Peter showed a major destruction event upon the earth on the "day of the Lord", which is the day when Jesus' 2nd coming happens. That will end this present FLESH age of man in flesh bodies. All the dead will be raised on that day, and all those still alive on earth will be changed to their spirit bodies at the twinkling of an eye. (1 Cor.15; 1 Thess.4).

Jesus will come on that day with His army from Heaven to fight the battle of Armageddon. The nations He will fight against are 'specifically' listed in the Ezekiel 38 Chapter, so it is NOT about ALL nations coming up against Jerusalem on that day, but only those specific nations listed in God's Word. Many Amils make the error of trying to include ALL nations in that gathering around Israel at the battle of Armageddon.

Most Amils do not even see that as talking about a literal gathering around Israel, but rather as a symbolic reference to all of those who oppose the church around the world. How do you interpret the following passage?

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

So, is it your belief that the passage above is only talking about Jesus taking vengeance "on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" from the nations listed in Ezekiel 38 when He returns, which are Magog, Persia, Ethiopia, Libya, Gomer, Togarmah and maybe some others. Certainly not nearly all of the nations of the earth are referenced there. So, you think Jesus won't take vengeance on any unbelievers from the U.S., Canada, Mexico, Brazil, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Australia, New Zealand and so on when He returns?

On that 'same' "day of the Lord", Jesus brings ALL His elect saints with Him, their having first been gathered from the "air" during His descent to earth from Heaven. The asleep saints that had already died He brings with Him from Heaven. Those saints still alive on earth are then gathered up to Him in the "air" with those other saints. Then they all... go with Him to Jerusalem on earth, and His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives. (Zech.14).

On that same "day of the Lord", God's "consuming fire" of 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Hebrews 12 will burn all of man's works off the surface of this earth, much as the flood of Noah's day did using waters of a flood.

All living things on the earth (on the land of the earth) besides Noah, his family and the animals on the ark were destroyed. 2 Peter 3:10-13 does not say that just man's works will be burned off the surface of the earth. It indicates that the entire surface of the earth itself will be burned up. So, no living, mortal beings on the entire earth will survive His return. Only those who are changed and made immortal (Christians) will survive.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It might be different if you were unintelligent or something, thus have a valid excuse as to why you don't comprehend some of these things. Except you are not unintelligent, therefore, you have no valid excuse as to why you are unwilling to comprehend some of these things.

So why are you unable to figure out by now that both comings were recorded in the OT? Except the 2nd coming was hidden then revealed in the NT. It is absurd beyond belief, that the OT never knew anything about a 2nd coming. Take Daniel 12:2, for instance. How do you suppose that verse ever gets fulfilled without it involving a 2nd coming? Think outside of the box and quit with this nonsense that the OT knows of no 2nd coming even though Daniel 12:2 alone proves it does.

And what about a passage like the following?

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David.>> The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Inquiring minds want to know how this passage cannot lead to a 2nd coming? In order to even fulfill that verse He has to come first, which He already did. But is He then stuck in limbo for forever sitting on His right hand? Of course not. After all this verse has an 'until' as part of it. No one that I know of would insist that 'until' means there is no end to something eventually. Therefore, even in this verse a 2nd coming is hidden in it since this 'until' implies a 2nd coming, which of course the NT has already revealed.

Be reasonable about things at least. It is unreasonable that Zechariah 14 is not involving a 2nd coming when Zechariah 14:12 alone proves it is. As if anything in the past 2000 years could possibly explain this--Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

I don't even want to waste time discussing anything with any unreasonable person who insists verse 12 has already been fulfilled, or that it can get fulfilled without involving the day of the Lord. Only Preterists and Pretribbers have the day of the Lord disconnected from the 2nd coming. Are you in either of those groups? I know you are not a Pretribber. Are you perhaps a Preterist then? Why would you deny that verse 12 is fulfilled during the vials of wrath, the day of the Lord? How do the vials of wrath not involve the 2nd coming at some point?

Not to mention, something @Davy has already brought up, Zechariah 14:5 is also echoed in the NT in the book of Jude. Therefore, it is absurd for someone to agree that the book of Jude records the 2nd coming but then insist Zechariah 14:5 doesn't. Totally unreasonable, thus doctrinally biased.

The second coming of Christ itself is never specifically referenced in the Old Testament anywhere. That is why Jesus said this...

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Jesus very specifically indicated that everything written "in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning" Him was fulfilled by His first coming. You should accept that. This does not mean that the Old Testament does not reference anything that has not yet been fulfilled, including things that will happen when Jesus comes again. Obviously, the resurrection of Daniel 12:2 is not yet fulfilled and the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth referenced in Isaiah 65 and 66 is not yet fulfilled and so on. But, everything that directly references the Messiah in the Old Testament was fulfilled by events related to the first coming of Christ. That is what Jesus Himself indicated.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The point is, the Prophets foretell only of ONE coming of the Lord when all that is written of Him would be fulfilled. A contradiction is forced into the Bible when we argue the Prophets of Old foretell TWO and not ONE coming of the Messiah. It is true the Prophets foretell of the Messiah coming as both Savior and with Judgment and wrath, they write of this coming to pass when the promised Messiah was to come.



Again, the point is the Prophets of Old do indeed prophesy of ALL that shall come to pass when the promised Messiah would come! But they never speak of this as encompassing TWO separate comings of the Messiah. Why would they write the Messiah would have to come back again since they believed all they foretell of Him would be fulfilled when He finally came?

Even though Davidpt can't comprehend what you are saying because of having his foggy Premil glasses on, I see your point and agree with it. There is no prophecy in the Old Testament which specifically references the second coming of Christ. That's why He said all the things concerning Him written in the Old Testament scriptures were fulfilled in His first coming (Luke 24:44). No one knew about a second coming of Christ until Jesus started talking about it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is rarely a theological argument presented by Premils explaining their position on Revelation 20 that does not submit Zechariah 14 as supporting evidence for their position. Premils talk as if these two texts fit together neatly to support their viewpoint. The only problem is, careful study of both will find there is no correlation between the detail in Zechariah 14 and that in Revelation 20. Trying to associate one with the other is like putting a square peg into a round whole. The detail is completely different.

First of all, Zechariah 14 makes absolutely no allusion to a future 1,000 years after the second coming, or does Zechariah 14 compare with any of the detail outlined in Revelation 20 (start, middle or finish). The detail occurring at the end of Revelation 20 only compares with the many passages relating to Christ’s one final future all-consummating Second Advent – there we see the destruction of every enemy of Christ and righteousness.

A helpful pointer that should aid the open-minded reader dissect the book of Zechariah is the phrase “in that day.” It connects the whole book together. It is mentioned 20 times in this Old Testament prophecy. It is extremely notable that reference after reference to “in that day” actually refers to the 1st Advent. Zechariah 14 also describes AD 70 and the spread of the Gospel to the darkened nations.

AD 70 is referenced in Zechariah 13 and 14 but generally it is a symbolic looking at Christ's ministry. There are a mixture of events relating to the life and ministry of Christ, Jerusalem's judgment (AD 70), the going out of the Gospel to the Gentiles. Notwithstanding, these are all tied together in Christ – and cannot be divorced one from another. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success.

Second, as you study the New Testament you see that the wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes, this disallows the placing of this after the second coming. There will be no mortals or no sinners to populate the new earth, what is more, they are prohibited from inheriting it (Matthew 25:34 &25:46, 1 Corinthians 6:9, and 1 Corinthians 15:50).

Thirdly, the keeping of the Judaic sacrificial system has been eternally abolished (see Galatians 4:9-10, Colossians 2:14, 16, 20-22 ). Many of the place names in Jerusalem don't exist anymore. Localized worship in a brick temple in Jerusalem has gone forever. We now "worship" God "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:21).

Fourthly, while the prophet Zechariah uses Old Testament vernacular, he seems to be looking forward to a brighter and better day. He is anticipating the coming Messiah, a new order and a final sacrifice for sin. He is looking to a day where the nations will experience the favor of God.

It is difficult to decipher because it is written in a type of apocalyptic form, which involves typical contains a mixture of literal and cryptic language. and must be understood in the symbolic way in which it is written.

Well said. Regarding your last statement, that is absolutely true. Any honest person would admit that it's difficult to interpret Zechariah 14 because it is difficult to reconcile some of it with other scripture, especially if taken literally in relation to a supposed time after Christ returns. Why anyone would want to use Zechariah 14 as part of the foundation of their doctrine instead of more clear, straightforward scriptures is beyond me.

 

[WPM]

The Zechariah 14 Chapter is about Christ's future 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord". Both Apostles Paul and Peter mentioned on that "day of the Lord" that it will be a day of destruction, as they both were pulling that idea from The Old Testament prophets.

This has been refuted many times by Amils. And it has been ducked around many times by Premils.

Zechariah 14 occurred 2000 years ago. Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

Hinneh Behold
yowm- day
baa' cometh
la-Yahweh the Lord
wªchulaq divides
shªlaaleek the spoils
bªqirbeek in the midst

This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the text. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’.

There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the second coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. We cannot therefore, with any certainty, insist upon the fact that this verse is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.

The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."

The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."

A perusal of the Greek LXX Septuagint rendering of this passage supports this interpretation:

idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai comes
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you

When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.

In the New Testament:

Of the five “day of the Lord” passages in the New Testament, they read in the original:

Three are: “hemera kurios” (Acts 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10).

Two are: “hemera ho kurios” (1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14).

In the Greek LXX Septuagint

Of the twenty “day of the Lord” passages in the Old Testament:

Eleven are: “hemera kurios” (Isaiah 13:6, 9, Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:31, 3:14, Obadiah 1:15, Zephaniah 1:14, Malachi 4:5)

Four are: “hemera ho kurios” (Joel 2:11, Amos 5:18, 20, Zephaniah 1:7)

We can see, fifteen align precisely with the Greek New Testament wording and confirm that this would be the normal rendering of the coming of Christ in the Greek. That is 75%.

One reads: “hemera ekeinos kurios” (Jeremiah 46:10), also meaning day of the Lord.

One is: “hemera gar kurios” (Isaiah 2:12), literally meaning day for the Lord.

Finally, there are two references (one after the other in Zephaniah) that refer to the same climactic day. One says, “hemera thumos kurios” (Zephaniah 2:2), meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. The other reads, “hemera orge kurios” (Zephaniah 2:3), similarly meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. Plainly, they are both speaking of the same day in the same reading and in the same context.

That brings us to Zechariah 14:1, which is worded completely different from the rest, saying, “hmerai erxontai tou kuriou,” literally meaning “a day is coming for the LORD.” None of the other passages say this. It is not unreasonable to make a distinction between Zechariah’s description and that of the other nineteen references. The only similarity is the King James Version’s translation of the same in the English. Notwithstanding, regardless of how high one values the A.V. one cannot use this as conclusive proof for equating the day Zechariah is speaking of to the other nineteen. The original rendering supersedes any other translations.

Because this does not literally read “the day of the Lord” then we don’t have to understand it as “the day of the Lord.” If it were, it would have most likely read hemera kurios or hemera ho kurios in the Greek LXX Septuagint. Or failing that: hemera ekeinos kurios.

Whilst the wording of Zechariah 14:1 doesn't prevent it referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus, the phrase ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ and ‘the day of the Lord’ are definitely not synonymous. It is therefore reasonable for us to question Premils identification of it with the second coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent.