WAYS THAT AMILS GET ZECHARIAH 14 WRONG

[Davidpt]

"Our God is a consuming fire" (Deuteronomy 4:24; Hebrews 10:29). With this in mind, one question, which may or may not seem relevant to some, arises in my mind that I would... well, raise in a rhetorical manner to @Davidpt ... Regarding 2 Peter 3, how can the works of man... all be burned up? And in... "asking" <smile> ...that question, no, these works of man that Peter refers to in 2 Peter 3 are not "the things that man has built using materials that God created." These are deeds, as is the case throughout the Bible, especially in the New Testament, and especially as referred to by Paul, Peter, and James... and Jesus, especially in His graphic portrayal of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46...

Obviously, both the deeds of men and the things men have built, will be destroyed. For example, Sin City and Casinos. Obviously, they are not going to be remaining upon the earth. But it doesn't require that the entire planet needs to be engulfed in literal flames in order to destroy these. An earthquake comes to mind....

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Why bother with an earthquake if the idea is to engulf the entire planet in literal flames of fire, the same way the entire planet was engulfed in literal water during Noah's day? God didn't need to cause a great earthquake upon the earth first, before he drowned them. Therefore, 2 Peter 3:10-12 can't be compared to Noah's flood in the literal sense, since not everything matches. During Noah's flood there was no great earthquake first. During the DOTL there is a great earthquake which is so great that every wall literally falls to the ground.

 

[Davidpt]

That's not what any of us are saying, David. I don't think... at least not me. A... "good Amil" <smile> ...would never even insinuate that.

Grace and peace to you.

I'm not applying that to all Amils. just some Amils, such as @WPM. I already know you have good discernment in regards to Zechariah 14 since we have discussed that ch before. For the most part, I think I agreed with your understanding of that chapter. Where I mainly disagreed is that I felt you weren't dealing with Zechariah 14:16-19 adequately.

 

[PinSeeker]

Obviously, both the deeds of men and the things men have built, will be destroyed.

Disagree. The things the men have made/built... material things... are not in view, David. We disagree on that, and that's fair enough.

Why bother with an earthquake if the idea is to engulf the entire planet in literal flames of fire, the same way the entire planet was engulfed in literal water during Noah's day?

Gotta read apocalyptic literature like... apocalyptic literature. <smile>

I'm not applying that to all Amils. just some Amils, such as @WPM.

Okay, well, I don't think that's what @WPM is implying, either. I could be wrong about that, but I don't think so.

I already know you have good discernment in regards to Zechariah 14 since we have discussed that ch before. For the most part, I think I agreed with your understanding of that chapter.

Fair enough; thanks. But I don't think his is much different, if at all. I don't think. <smile>

Where I mainly disagreed is that I felt you weren't dealing with Zechariah 14:16-19 adequately.

Fair enough; I don't remember why. Want to explain?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[rwb]

And as for a NON-literal interpretation of God's written Word, which sounds like what you are suggesting, that's just a crock of garbage from men's doctrines, and is what got some Christians at the Christian school at Alexandria, Egypt in trouble, like Origen who treated much of the Bible as one huge allegory. God's written Word is always... literal, even when it uses allegory, parable, metaphor, and expressions, because those things exist in every language as tools used to get the real point across. God in His Word uses them a lot, and they always... point to some literal idea or truth.

When I speak of things the prophets of Old foretell as needing to be spiritually discerned, I'm saying the physical/literal things the Old Covenant prophets foretell would be forever can only be correctly understood through literal but spiritual fulfillment. Consider for instance this verse from Joel telling us "Judah shall dwell forever." Every student of the Word should understand this cannot be referring to the physical tribe of Judah. There is nothing of this world that shall be forever because everything of this world is passing away. However spiritual Judah shall dwell forever.

Joel 3:20 (KJV) But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.

Can anyone reading the words of the Prophet Isaiah believe he is speaking of the physical nation of Jerusalem as a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes shall ever be removed, neither any of the cords thereof be broken? This prophecy must be spiritually discerned, understand Zion is not Zion of this earth, but Zion from above, Jerusalem here is not the literal physical nation and tabernacle/temple, but spiritually speaking of Jerusalem from above, the temple that shall be forever is not physical, but through spiritual discernment the True Temple that is Christ and His body; the Church. Since nothing physically of this earth shall be forever, the words of the Prophets can only be correctly understood through literal spiritual, not literal physical discernment. That's a problem for premillennialists because they try to force a literal physical fulfillment knowing no physical thing upon this earth can endure forever. Only that which pertains to the spiritual Kingdom of God shall endure forever.

Isaiah 33:20 (KJV) Look upon Zion, the city of our solemnities: thine eyes shall see Jerusalem a quiet habitation, a tabernacle that shall not be taken down; not one of the stakes thereof shall ever be removed, neither shall any of the cords thereof be broken.

Matthew 24:35 (KJV) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Nahum 1:5 (KJV) The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

 

[rwb]

What destroys your argument is that Zechariah 14:1 is not meaning a coming during the first century, in any sense. It is absurd that the Lord gathered all nations to battle against Jerusalem in the first century, then went forth and fought against those nations, thus the Romans, especially when Jerusalem is not even meaning the literal city in the Middle East to begin with in that section of Zechariah 14. It is meaning the city meant in Revelation 11:1-2. And I'm not even an Amil, yet I have better spiritual discernment in this case than a lot of Amils do. You would think it should be the other way around.

A pretty good spiritual catch David! ALL nations are not gathered together to battle against the earthly city Jerusalem! ALL nations spiritually is speaking of ALL the enemies of Christ and His Church coming together to battle against the spiritual Jerusalem above. This has been true from the time Christ ushered in the spiritual Kingdom of God when He came to earth a man. Jerusalem from above is being built NOW, since Christ came to earth as the gospel of the spiritual Kingdom of God is being proclaimed. The nations, are unbelievers who are moved by the power of evil, desire to keep Jerusalem from above from being completed as the Church preaches the gospel unto all the world.

I also agree that spiritually speaking Rev 11:1-2 is not measuring the Old Covenant Temple, as Preterits believe, but is the true temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein who have been eternally saved. It numbers the remnant of saints of the first century the True New Covenant Temple of which believers are.

 

[WPM]

What destroys your argument is that Zechariah 14:1 is not meaning a coming during the first century, in any sense. It is absurd that the Lord gathered all nations to battle against Jerusalem in the first century, then went forth and fought against those nations, thus the Romans, especially when Jerusalem is not even meaning the literal city in the Middle East to begin with in that section of Zechariah 14. It is meaning the city meant in Revelation 11:1-2. And I'm not even an Amil, yet I have better spiritual discernment in this case than a lot of Amils do. You would think it should be the other way around.

Zechariah 14:2-3 says, “For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.”

Amils are actually split on whether this should be interpreted literally or spiritually. The literal interpretation normally relates this passage to AD 70 after the Gentiles destroyed Christ (in the form of the Roman soldiers); whereupon the Gospel then conquered them, overthrowing state established paganism. Jerusalem is considered literal earthly Jerusalem. Significantly, the instrument of its destruction – Rome – subsequently became the epicenter of the Gospel witness for many years after the cross. I must qualify: most to not identify that success with the Roman Catholicism, which was pagan, but rather ancient Christianity that was centered in Rome for years.

God brought His wrath upon the city of Jerusalem because of Israel’s disobedience. They believe that the destruction of the city and the raping of the city occurred in AD 70. The Roman Empire was a wicked, pagan and idolatrous culture. At that time the Roman Empire enjoyed jurisdiction over the whole known world (Luke 2:1). But God often uses whatever instruments He chooses to fulfil His purposes. Jerusalem was destroyed because of their rejection of Christ. The Roman Empire represented the Gentile nations of the known world at that time. The Gentiles came against the city, but the Gospel in turn went out among the Gentiles with great success and widely overthrew the prevailing heathenism.

Acts 4:26 records: “The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.”

While the nations joined together under the vehicle of the Roman Empire to oppose Christ and ultimately crucify Him, the Gospel extended out to the same nations represented here.

On the other hand, many other Amils spiritualize Jerusalem here to pertain to Christ and the kingdom of God and relate the Gentile rejection of the same under the old covenant and the turn around that occurred with the great commission in the New Testament to Zechariah 14:2-3. Basically: the darkened Gentile nations were invaded with the Gospel light of Jesus Christ.

Jesus explained in Matthew 21:42-44 referred specifically to Psalm 118:22 when talking to the religious Jews of His day: “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”

In the New Testament, Christ rules over spiritual Zion. All who embrace Him reside there and enjoy the spiritual blessings that accompanies intimacy with Him. Everything in the New Testament is pointing towards Jesus Christ. It is not about physical earthly land. It is not about the Middle East. It is not about a brick temple. It is about spiritual territory. It is about a heavenly kingdom. Earthly Zion means nothing today; heavenly Zion is everything. It is not about an earthly king, but rather a heavenly king. It is not about race; it is rather about grace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The last days are the day of the Lord! That's why the prophets foretell of ALL that shall come to pass during these last days that are the day/age/time of the Lord. The time when the promised Messiah foretold to come came to fulfill all that was written of Him. The day of the Lord is the fullness of time from the first advent of Christ until the seventh/last trumpet begins to sound.


The last days spoken by Joel is reference to the whole New Testament period of time given the church to build the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven as they proclaim the gospel unto all the nations of the world. This time "the day of the Lord" will end suddenly and unexpectedly for those who are not looking for Christ to come AGAIN, not for the day of the Lord, but coming with wrath and judgment for the whole world! The last day won't usher in more day(s), it will end ONE day with signs in the heavens and earth, and Christ seen coming in the clouds of heaven.



The prophets know and write only of the day/age/time when the promised Messiah would come. The last day of the Lord that will be turned into darkness before the "great and terrible day of the Lord come" shall be for whosoever does NOT call on the name of the Lord for deliverance. That final day of the Lord won't be darkness for those who are looking and waiting for Christ to come again. The prophets know nothing of the second coming of Christ in judgment with wrath, so they write only of the day of the Lord that would come when all that is written would be fulfilled. The prophets write of both the day of the Lord coming with salvation, as well as coming with great wrath and both come to pass in these last days when the gospel of Christ is proclaimed unto all mankind.

Joel 2:31 (KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 2:32 (KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

The prophets could not know the day of the Lord would end with a second coming of Christ. How could they know of a second coming of Christ since they did not live to see the first coming of Christ at His appointed time. The day of the Lord's coming was in the fullness of time foretold by the prophets. They did not know when the fullness of time for the day of the Lord would begin or end. So, they foretell only of the day of the Lord that would come in the fulness of time not understanding His time for building His Church would end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time shall be no longer.

Galatians 4:4-5 (KJV) But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.



The last days according to Scripture came when Christ came to earth a man. The last days are the day of the Lord which began with His first coming and shall end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound that time given this earth shall be no longer.

Hebrews 1:2 (KJV) Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Mark 1:1-2 (KJV) The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.



Why would the New Testament write the LAST day of the day of the Lord since they knew the day of the Lord that would come AGAIN would be the LAST DAY of these last days and time symbolized a thousand years would be no longer?

I don't see in scripture where "the last days", which we agree began with the first coming of Christ and continue until the second coming of Christ, are ever referred to as "the day of the Lord" and I only see the day Christ returns referred to as "the day of the Lord" in scripture and that will be the last day of the last days. I'm just not seeing what you're seeing as it relates to the term "the day of the Lord". So be it. It's not a hill to die on. We'll have to agree to disagree about the meaning of "the day of the Lord".

 

[WPM]

I don't see in scripture where "the last days", which we agree began with the first coming of Christ and continue until the second coming of Christ, are ever referred to as "the day of the Lord" and I only see the day Christ returns referred to as "the day of the Lord" in scripture and that will be the last day of the last days. I'm just not seeing what you're seeing as it relates to the term "the day of the Lord". So be it. It's not a hill to die on. We'll have to agree to disagree about the meaning of "the day of the Lord".

Some Amils are building on that with a mistranslation of Zechariah 14. That is it. Therefore, there is nothing to support such a claim. I have presented this many times and it has not been refuted.

Zechariah 14 occurred 2000 years ago. Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

Hinneh Behold
yowm- day
baa' cometh
la-Yahweh the Lord
wªchulaq divides
shªlaaleek the spoils
bªqirbeek in the midst

This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the text. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’.

There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the second coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. We cannot therefore, with any certainty, insist upon the fact that this verse is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.

The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."

The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."

A perusal of the Greek LXX Septuagint rendering of this passage supports this interpretation:

idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai comes
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you

When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.

In the New Testament:

Of the five “day of the Lord” passages in the New Testament, they read in the original:

Three are: “hemera kurios” (Acts 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10).

Two are: “hemera ho kurios” (1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14).

In the Greek LXX Septuagint

Of the twenty “day of the Lord” passages in the Old Testament:

Eleven are: “hemera kurios” (Isaiah 13:6, 9, Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:31, 3:14, Obadiah 1:15, Zephaniah 1:14, Malachi 4:5)

Four are: “hemera ho kurios” (Joel 2:11, Amos 5:18, 20, Zephaniah 1:7)

We can see, fifteen align precisely with the Greek New Testament wording and confirm that this would be the normal rendering of the coming of Christ in the Greek. That is 75%.

One reads: “hemera ekeinos kurios” (Jeremiah 46:10), also meaning day of the Lord.

One is: “hemera gar kurios” (Isaiah 2:12), literally meaning day for the Lord.

Finally, there are two references (one after the other in Zephaniah) that refer to the same climactic day. One says, “hemera thumos kurios” (Zephaniah 2:2), meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. The other reads, “hemera orge kurios” (Zephaniah 2:3), similarly meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. Plainly, they are both speaking of the same day in the same reading and in the same context.

That brings us to Zechariah 14:1, which is worded completely different from the rest, saying, “hmerai erxontai tou kuriou,” literally meaning “a day is coming for the LORD.” None of the other passages say this. It is not unreasonable to make a distinction between Zechariah’s description and that of the other nineteen references. The only similarity is the King James Version’s translation of the same in the English. Notwithstanding, regardless of how high one values the A.V. one cannot use this as conclusive proof for equating the day Zechariah is speaking of to the other nineteen. The original rendering supersedes any other translations.

Because this does not literally read “the day of the Lord” then we don’t have to understand it as “the day of the Lord.” If it were, it would have most likely read hemera kurios or hemera ho kurios in the Greek LXX Septuagint. Or failing that: hemera ekeinos kurios.

Whilst the wording of Zechariah 14:1 doesn't prevent it referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus, the phrase ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ and ‘the day of the Lord’ are definitely not synonymous. It is therefore reasonable for us to question Premils identification of it with the second coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The day that Jesus returns is an actual day. The Bible calls it “the last day” (singular). This is presented in direct contrast to “the last days” (plural). Basically, it is the final day of the last days. It is not a figurative indefinite day. After all, time concludes at the last trumpet. When you couple that with the sudden and climactic detail attached to the day it is easy to understand its literal meaning. But because this demolishes the Premillennial thesis. Premillennialists spiritual the day to be a prolonged period of time and they spiritualize away the wholesale destruction that destroys the current corrupt natural.

Agree completely. I believe Paul makes it quite clear that it's a literal day and it will bring "sudden destruction" (1 Thess 5:2-3). Nothing prolonged about that at all. And, yes, that day will involve the resurrection of the dead in Christ and gathering to Christ as well. But, if the amount of time it will take for our bodies to be changed is any indication ("a moment" - 1 Cor 15:51-52), everything will happen quickly on that day. The idea of the day of the Lord being a prolonged period of time is just not indicated anywhere in scripture.

Some Premils ridiculously take 2 Peter 3:8 out of context and try to use it to show that the day of the Lord lasts a thousand years, but that's about the extent of evidence I ever see to promote the idea that the thousand years is the day of the Lord. That simply does not fit what is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 or 2 Peter 3:10-12 at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amils are building on that with a mistranslation of Zechariah 14. That is it. Therefore, there is nothing to support such a claim. I have presented this many times and it has not been refuted.

Zechariah 14 occurred 2000 years ago. Zechariah 14:1 declares, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.”

Hinneh Behold
yowm- day
baa' cometh
la-Yahweh the Lord
wªchulaq divides
shªlaaleek the spoils
bªqirbeek in the midst

This passage and especially its rendering in the King James Version has caused confusion to many Bible students over the years. However, a closer examination of the original dispels a lot of ambiguity surrounding the text. Firstly, the Hebrew does not actually say “the day of the Lord” as the King James Version renders it but ‘a day is coming for the Lord’.

There is no doubt, the phrase “the day of the Lord” normally relates to the second coming in Scripture, but Zechariah 14:1 does not state that in the original. We cannot therefore, with any certainty, insist upon the fact that this verse is referring to the day of the Lord. This places a completely different slant on the meaning of the whole chapter. Other versions translate the reading more accurate.

The NASB says: "Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you."

The YLT states: "Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst."

A perusal of the Greek LXX Septuagint rendering of this passage supports this interpretation:

idou Behold
hmerai day
erxontai comes
tou the
kuriou Lord
kai even (or indeed)
diamerisqhsetai divides
ta the
skula spoils
sou you
en with
soi you

When we look at the usage of the Greek throughout the Old Testament (in the Greek LXX Septuagint) and our New Testament we find a definite pattern in relation to the wording and identification of the day of the Lord in the original.

In the New Testament:

Of the five “day of the Lord” passages in the New Testament, they read in the original:

Three are: “hemera kurios” (Acts 2:20, 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10).

Two are: “hemera ho kurios” (1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14).

In the Greek LXX Septuagint

Of the twenty “day of the Lord” passages in the Old Testament:

Eleven are: “hemera kurios” (Isaiah 13:6, 9, Ezekiel 13:5, 30:3, Joel 1:15, 2:1, 2:31, 3:14, Obadiah 1:15, Zephaniah 1:14, Malachi 4:5)

Four are: “hemera ho kurios” (Joel 2:11, Amos 5:18, 20, Zephaniah 1:7)

We can see, fifteen align precisely with the Greek New Testament wording and confirm that this would be the normal rendering of the coming of Christ in the Greek. That is 75%.

One reads: “hemera ekeinos kurios” (Jeremiah 46:10), also meaning day of the Lord.

One is: “hemera gar kurios” (Isaiah 2:12), literally meaning day for the Lord.

Finally, there are two references (one after the other in Zephaniah) that refer to the same climactic day. One says, “hemera thumos kurios” (Zephaniah 2:2), meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. The other reads, “hemera orge kurios” (Zephaniah 2:3), similarly meaning a day of the Lord’s anger. Plainly, they are both speaking of the same day in the same reading and in the same context.

That brings us to Zechariah 14:1, which is worded completely different from the rest, saying, “hmerai erxontai tou kuriou,” literally meaning “a day is coming for the LORD.” None of the other passages say this. It is not unreasonable to make a distinction between Zechariah’s description and that of the other nineteen references. The only similarity is the King James Version’s translation of the same in the English. Notwithstanding, regardless of how high one values the A.V. one cannot use this as conclusive proof for equating the day Zechariah is speaking of to the other nineteen. The original rendering supersedes any other translations.

Because this does not literally read “the day of the Lord” then we don’t have to understand it as “the day of the Lord.” If it were, it would have most likely read hemera kurios or hemera ho kurios in the Greek LXX Septuagint. Or failing that: hemera ekeinos kurios.

Whilst the wording of Zechariah 14:1 doesn't prevent it referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus, the phrase ‘a day is coming for the Lord’ and ‘the day of the Lord’ are definitely not synonymous. It is therefore reasonable for us to question Premils identification of it with the second coming of the Lord and to consider the possibility that it relates to Christ’s first advent.

Yep. You don't have to convince me. I fully agree with all of that. Zechariah 14 is not referring to THE day of the Lord like we see in other passages. It can't be. It does not line up with what other passages say about the day of the Lord.

I think we should especially trust Paul and Peter's descriptions of the day of the Lord in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, which clearly do not line up with what is written in Zechariah 14. I am sure Paul and Peter understood Zechariah 14 better than anyone here does and, yet, they did not describe the day of the Lord anything like what we read in Zechariah 14. That should tell people something, but it apparently tells Premils nothing. For them, Zechariah 14 trumps everything else and that results in them either ignoring or twisting NT passages about the day of the Lord to fit their doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What destroys your argument is that Zechariah 14:1 is not meaning a coming during the first century, in any sense. It is absurd that the Lord gathered all nations to battle against Jerusalem in the first century, then went forth and fought against those nations, thus the Romans, especially when Jerusalem is not even meaning the literal city in the Middle East to begin with in that section of Zechariah 14. It is meaning the city meant in Revelation 11:1-2. And I'm not even an Amil, yet I have better spiritual discernment in this case than a lot of Amils do. You would think it should be the other way around.

Not even a coming during the first century in a spiritual sense? How can you disprove that? In your mind there's no chance at all that the following verses could be related, for example...

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Can you show me where Zechariah 14 talks about an event of "sudden destruction" where everyone in spiritual darkness "shall not escape", as Paul wrote about the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4? You have unbelievers escaping destruction in Zechariah 14, right? How does that agree with what Paul wrote about the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-4?

It also doesn't line up with what Peter wrote about the day of the Lord in 2 Peter 3:10-12, but we've discussed that passage already. I'd like to just focus on 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 for now and how you reconcile it with your understanding of Zechariah 14.

 

[rwb]

I don't see in scripture where "the last days", which we agree began with the first coming of Christ and continue until the second coming of Christ, are ever referred to as "the day of the Lord" and I only see the day Christ returns referred to as "the day of the Lord" in scripture and that will be the last day of the last days. I'm just not seeing what you're seeing as it relates to the term "the day of the Lord". So be it. It's not a hill to die on. We'll have to agree to disagree about the meaning of "the day of the Lord".

You agree the last days began with the first coming of Christ and continue until the second coming. Do you also agree with Peter quoting the prophet Joel saying Pentecost marks the beginning of "the day of the Lord"? Peter, quoting from the Prophet Joel says this prophesy of Joel of the day of the Lord was to come began to come to pass in "the last days." The same last days in time past foreseen by the prophets of Old saying the Son would speak unto us.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Joel 2:1-32 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God? Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly: Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet. Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God? Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people. Yea, the LORD will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things. Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Acts 2:14-21 (KJV) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I agree the day of the Lord found in the New Testament is indeed the final day of the Lord, when the last trumpet begins to sound, that does not mean that is when the day of the Lord began. The day of the Lord began with the first advent of Christ which the words of the prophets and Peter conclusively prove shall end when time given this earth shall be no longer, when we physically see signs in the earth and heaven and the appearance of Christ coming in the clouds.

 

[rwb]

Young's Literal Translation agrees with King James. I have very little confidence in modern translations of Scripture like the NASB a translation of the Bible in contemporary English. Published by the Lockman Foundation, the complete NASB was released in 1971. New revisions were published in 1995 and 2020.

Joel 2:1 (YLT) Blow ye a trumpet in Zion, And shout ye in My holy hill, Tremble do all inhabitants of the earth, For coming is the day of Jehovah, for it is near!

Joel 2:1 (WEB) Blow you the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, For the day of Yahweh comes, For it is close at hand:

Joel 2:1 (DBY) Blow the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is at hand;

Joel 2:1 (ASV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain; let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of Jehovah cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Joel 2:1 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Eusebius points out that it cannot be said to have been fulfilled under Antiochus Epiphanes; "If any think that these things are, then let him consider again and again, whether he can refer the rest of the prophecy also to the times of Antiochus; as, that 'the feet of the Lord stood on the mount of Olives' Zec 14:4, that 'the Lord in that day' Zec 14:9, became 'king over the whole earth;' and so, as to the rest of the prophecy."

And although more was fulfilled in the last siege by the Romans, still those who would explain it solely of this, are obliged to mingle explanations partly literal, as that Jerusalem should be the earthly Jerusalem, which was destroyed, partly metaphorical, as to the mount of Olives, its division into two parts etc. It seems then probable that, like the kindred prophecy of Joel Joe 2:30; 3:18, it relates chiefly to the time of the end, and that as our Lord unites the destruction of Jerusalem with His Coming in the Day of Judgment, so here are united that first destruction with the last rebellion of man, in the times of antichrist. Since then much or most may be yet future, it seems safer, as Jerome suggests, to explain the prophet's symbolic language, leaving the times of the fulfillment to Him, in whose hands they are.

Zechariah 14:1 (KJV) Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zechariah 14:1 (YLT) Lo, a day hath come to Jehovah, And divided hath been thy spoil in thy midst.
Zechariah 14:1 (WEB) Behold, a day of Yahweh comes, when your spoil will be divided in your midst.
Zechariah 14:1 (DBY) Behold, the day cometh for Jehovah, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zechariah 14:1 (ASV) Behold, a day of Jehovah cometh, when thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

Since the other verses speaking of the day of the Lord point to the advent of Christ coming, it seems inconsistent and rather convenient to argue Zec 14:1 is referring to AD 70 as Preterits do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Obviously, both the deeds of men and the things men have built, will be destroyed. For example, Sin City and Casinos. Obviously, they are not going to be remaining upon the earth. But it doesn't require that the entire planet needs to be engulfed in literal flames in order to destroy these. An earthquake comes to mind....

Ezekiel 38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

Why bother with an earthquake if the idea is to engulf the entire planet in literal flames of fire, the same way the entire planet was engulfed in literal water during Noah's day?

Yes, why do something that would make Peter look like a false prophet?

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Why is it that you interpret Revelation 16:18, found in the most symbolic book in the entire Bible, literally, but interpret 2 Peter 3:7 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 symbolically, despite those verse giving no indication at all that they should not be interpreted literally?

Let's look at Revelation 16:18 and the verses that follow it and see if it makes sense to take all of this literally.

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of t'he plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

So, you think verse 18 is talking about a literal great earthquake, which, to be consistent, you should believe that verses 19 to 21 are literal, also. So, you must believe that the great city, whatever you believe that to be, will literally be divided into three parts by the literal great earthquake. What is your understanding of what the great city Babylon represents in reality and how could it be divided into three parts literally?

In verse 20, should we take it literally that every island will flee away and that no mountains will be found after the great earthquake? How exactly would islands literally flee away and how exactly would mountains literally just disappear?

In verse 21, it talks about hailstones falling from heaven on people and they are said to each be the weight of a talent, which is equivalent to about 100 pounds or so. Considering that the hailstones will have fallen a great distance from the sky, each one would be heavy enough to instantly kill any person or animal that it struck. Yet, it talks about people blaspheming and cursing God because of the plague of hail. How can that be taken literally when people would not even survive such an event to be able to blaspheme and curse God? It can't.

While there will indeed be mass physical destruction when Jesus returns, the literal way in which it will happen is not described in passages like Revelation 16:18-21. Or in Revelation 19:11-21 where it talks about Jesus slaying people with the sword that comes out of His mouth while also treading them in the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of God. I'm sure you don't take all that literally, so why do you take Revelation 16:18 so literally? You know Revelation 19:11-21 isn't talking about Jesus using a literal sword or a literal winepress to kill people. If the destruction that will occur when He returns can be described symbolically in Revelation 19:11-21, then why not in Revelation 16:18, also?

So, which should be taken literally, the great earthquake and hailstones or the sword coming out of Christ's mouth that He uses to slay His enemies and the winepress that He uses to crush His enemies? Neither. It's all symbolic. That doesn't mean mass physical destruction won't happen when He returns, but it's just not the point of passages like those to described how the mass physical destruction will occur literally. That's what passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12 are for.

God didn't need to cause a great earthquake upon the earth first, before he drowned them. Therefore, 2 Peter 3:10-12 can't be compared to Noah's flood in the literal sense, since not everything matches.

Fire is obviously not water, so not everything matches no matter how you look at it. So, you're not making a strong argument here. But, in terms of the type of destruction (physical) and the scope of destruction (global), the two events are directly comparable, which is why Peter does just that in 2 Peter 3:6-7.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You agree the last days began with the first coming of Christ and continue until the second coming.

Yep. And I said I'm okay with agreeing to disagree about what "the day of the Lord" means. It looks like you don't want to do that? I'm okay with continuing the discussion, but I have doubts that it will be productive. We're just going to repeat ourselves, most likely.

Do you also agree with Peter quoting the prophet Joel saying Pentecost marks the beginning of "the day of the Lord"?

Obviously not or I wouldn't have said multiple times that I believe the day Jesus returns is the day of the Lord, as indicated in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:2 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. And I've said multiple times that Pentecost occurred during the earlier time of the last days that we're still in now and that the last days should not be confused with the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord will occur on the last day of the last days and that day will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night, as Paul and Peter indicated, and it will bring mass destruction on the earth on that day.

Peter, quoting from the Prophet Joel says this prophesy of Joel of the day of the Lord was to come began to come to pass in "the last days."

Where exactly does he say that? Peter quoted Joel 2:28-32 in Acts 2:16-21, so I assume you are referring to that. I don't see anything in Joel 2:28-32 which indicates that the day of the Lord would begin to come to pass in the last days. Give me the exact verse(s) that you think are saying that with the exact text that you think says that.

The same last days in time past foreseen by the prophets of Old saying the Son would speak unto us.

Hebrews 1:1-2 (KJV) God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

These last days are not the day of the Lord. I do not see any scripture which equates the last days with the day of the Lord. You keep claiming that, but where is the scripture which indicates that?

Joel 2:1-32 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them. The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run. Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array. Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness. They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks: Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief. The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it? Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning: And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind

Removed some text just to keep this post under 10,000 words.

......Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the LORD will do great things. Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength. Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Acts 2:14-21 (KJV) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I agree the day of the Lord found in the New Testament is indeed the final day of the Lord, when the last trumpet begins to sound, that does not mean that is when the day of the Lord began. The day of the Lord began with the first advent of Christ which the words of the prophets and Peter conclusively prove shall end when time given this earth shall be no longer, when we physically see signs in the earth and heaven and the appearance of Christ coming in the clouds.

Again, I'm just not seeing what you're seeing in this text. What I see in that text is a description of the last days, which clearly had already begun before the day of Pentecost, and that the last days would be a time period during which the Holy Spirit would be poured out on people and that people would call on the name of the Lord to be saved.

But, I also see a description of the day of the Lord (not the last days) in that text being "a day of darkness and gloominess" and being "great and very terrible". You think that describes the day of Pentecost and the New Testament time period in general? I don't think so. That describes the same day of the Lord that Paul and Peter wrote about that will bring "sudden destruction" by fire from which unbelievers "shall not escape". It's not a very terrible day of darkness and gloominess for believers, obviously, but for unbelievers it definitely will be. The last days lead up to the day of the Lord, which is the day of the Lord's return. That's what I see in the text. I realize you don't see it that way for reasons I don't understand. I don't see that changing any time soon, so we might as well just agree to disagree about this.

 

[rwb]

Obviously not or I wouldn't have said multiple times that I believe the day Jesus returns is the day of the Lord, as indicated in passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:2 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

This places the day of the Lord the prophets foretell coming AFTER time (a thousand years) has expired! That would make the day of the Lord coming lasting only for a little season! This little season is the time given to Satan to gather together the ALL who are deceived to make one last attempt at keeping the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven from being complete! When we read everything that must be accomplished during this period of time designated as the day of the Lord coming, it is NOT possible for all that is written to be fulfilled in one "little season".

Revelation 20:3 (KJV) And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7-9 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

And I've said multiple times that Pentecost occurred during the earlier time of the last days that we're still in now and that the last days should not be confused with the day of the Lord.

Yes, and Peter quoting the Prophet Joel on the day of Pentecost tells us this is the day of the Lord that should come the prophets have spoken of! I've learned that what we think is true must be biblically proven or it remains opinion and not truth.

The day of the Lord will occur on the last day of the last days and that day will come unexpectedly as a thief in the night, as Paul and Peter indicated, and it will bring mass destruction on the earth on that day.

Actually it is the LAST day of the Lord when Christ comes AGAIN that will bring utter/complete fiery destruction upon the whole earth! And it will be unexpected as a thief in the night for those who are not the children of light and of the day.

1 Thessalonians 5:4-6 (KJV) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Where exactly does he say that?

The prophecy begins with Joel warning of the day of the Lord coming and being near at hand. All that follows pertains to what shall come to pass when the day of the Lord comes. It makes no sense for Joel to say the day of the Lord was near at hand if the day of the Lord won't come until the very end of time.

Joel 2:1 (KJV) Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

Give me the exact verse(s) that you think are saying that with the exact text that you think says that.

I've already quoted them.

 

[PinSeeker]

Zechariah 14 is a layered prophecy. Through Zechariah, God foretells both Christ's advent (birth) and His return. So, layered, in that it has an immediate and an ultimate fulfillment. This is a larger Biblical pattern.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[rwb]

Zechariah 14 is a layered prophecy. Through Zechariah, God foretells both Christ's advent (birth) and His return. So, layered, in that it has an immediate and an ultimate fulfillment. This is a larger Biblical pattern.

Grace and peace to all.

This is how I read the Prophets of Old also! I think many cannot see this because the prophets only anticipate ONE day (age) of the Lord the promised Messiah, Christ our Lord would come in. Though the Prophets of Old prophesy about the utter destruction that shall come when Christ comes again at the end of the age, they NEVER specifically say the day of the Lord would be fulfilled when the Messiah comes again. Because they write that when the day of the Lord would come, it would last forever.

Grace and peace to as well.

 

[PinSeeker]

This is how I read the Prophets of Old also! I think many cannot see this because the prophets only anticipate ONE day (age) of the Lord the promised Messiah, Christ our Lord would come in.

I don't think it's because they "can't see it," but rather just that it's never occurred to them (for one reason or another) to understand it in that way. Perhaps that will change... <smile>

Just generally speaking, very often ~ even in the Bible ~ there is more than one sense in which any one thing can be understood. That doesn't necessarily make them all right, of course, or all wrong, or one right and the other wrong. If understood in different senses, those things may only seemingly be contradictory and/or in opposition to each other on their face... but not be in opposition to each other at all.

Soli Del Gloria!

Grace and peace to all.

 

[rwb]

I don't think it's because they "can't see it," but rather just that it's never occurred to them (for one reason or another) to understand it in that way. Perhaps that will change... <smile>

Yes, this is probably right! This understanding did not occur to me until it finally did. Since I don't consider myself to be uniquely gifted to understand biblical doctrine others cannot understand, perhaps it will change. Thanks.