WAYS THAT AMILS GET ZECHARIAH 14 WRONG

[Marilyn C]

I'm mostly addressing Truth7t7's post in the thread "How Many Judgments of Being Cast Into the Lake of Fire Are There?.

The Zechariah 14 Chapter is about Christ's future 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord". Both Apostles Paul and Peter mentioned on that "day of the Lord" that it will be a day of destruction, as they both were pulling that idea from The Old Testament prophets.

Hi Davy,

I agree we, the Body of Christ are NOT in the Day of the LORD, (God Almighty in Judgment) time period. Interesting to note that when the northern great army (& others) come down to the mountains of Israel, then that is the beginning of the Day of the LORD. Thus when we see that great army descending to Israel we know we will be going `home.` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)

 

[Marilyn C]

Just like the NT authors, they taught that the last days lead up to the future day of the Lord, which is the literal 24 hour day during which Jesus will return.

The word `Day,` in Hebrew and Greek means - a period of time and a specific day. Thus, we see both in God`s word and look to the context to tell us which it is.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nah... you are trying to apply a modern-day Jewish theory about today's nation state of Israel, treating it as if God has already saved Israel, when that couldn't be any farther from the Truth.

"Modern-day Jewish theory" about today's nation state of Israel?!

What are you talking about?? I did not say things like this. You need to learn to quote what I wrote to know what you are talking about.

That Joel 3 passage is about the day of Christ's future 2nd coming. It has yet... to happen.

False.

Have you even read... The New Testament Scriptures that give more detail of that Joel timing?

Sigh...

Isa 13:9-13
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in His going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.
KJV

Judgment of New Testament congregation when she has become Babylon for her unfaithfulness, Revelation 18.

Matt 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
KJV

Judgment of New Testament congregation.

Luke 21:25-27
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
KJV

Judgment of the New Testament congregation.

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

Judgment of the New Testament congregation prior to the Second Coming of Christ.

See, the islands and mountains here refer "specifically" to the churches. Mountains and Islands are used in Scripture to refer to kingdoms, and often are the representation of the Lord's Kingdom. Not talking about literal mountains and islands here. Islands because they as a refuge, retreat, shelter, or oasis seated in the midst of the sea (symbolizing world), and thus used as a representation of God's kingdom. And mountain because in the past they were also illustrating a places of protections. Those who are weary of siin flee as a bird to their MOUNTAIN becasue that is WHERE the protection of God is. This is where salvation is found. it is the lofty place of safety from attack, and thus it is often used to represent the protection of God's kingdom. For example, we are those in the mountains that go forth to bring the good news of the salvaiton gospel, Isaiah 52:7.

Isaiah 51:5

• "My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust."

Isles are the same as Islands. Islands here represent the Lord's kingdom. As also seen in Isaiah 60.

Isaiah 60:9

• "Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee."

Mountains often have the same representation of His kingdom:

Psalms 87:1-3

• "His foundation is in the holy mountains.
• The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
• Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah."

also...

Psalms 11:12

• "...In the LORD put I my trust: how say ye to my soul, Flee as a bird to your mountain?
• For, lo, the wicked bend their bow, they make ready their arrow upon the string, that they may privily shoot at the upright in heart."

Psalms 121:1-2

• "I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
• My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth."

The word translated hill is the exact same word translated mountain. Mount Zion represents the kingdom of God. Thus when we read Revelation 16:20, in its proper context, and in harmoneous relationship to the whole Bible, we see this is God's judgment specifically on the unfaithful church, whom He had warned of their removal before. They are being removed as the consequence of their disobedience.

Revelation 16:20

• "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Compare this with what God warned the "fallen church" that He would do as a judgment if they didn't repent and do the first works:

Revelation 2:5

• "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

This is the fate of the fallen church, to be moved out of its place. For example, as symbolized also in Revelation chapter 6:

Revelation 6:14

• "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Their place was as a representation of the kingdom of God (as Israel's was before it fell), but because of their abominations, God's spirit is removed from them that they are no longer houses of God. In that verse, the heaven departing like a scroll "signifies" the Kingdom of Heaven is gone from them (as with Israel before them -Matthew 21:43), and it is done like a scroll closed to "signify" the word of God being shut up to them. A famine of hearing the word of God (Amos 8). This is the fulfillment of what God promised the church in Revelation chapter 2 would happen if they didn't repent of their evil works. God's judgment upon the churches realized.

Do you honestly think God is talking about physical mountains and islands will going to be sink into the sea here? Nope!

 

[TribulationSigns]

Hi Davy,

I agree we, the Body of Christ are NOT in the Day of the LORD, (God Almighty in Judgment) time period. Interesting to note that when the northern great army (& others) come down to the mountains of Israel, then that is the beginning of the Day of the LORD. Thus when we see that great army descending to Israel we know we will be going `home.` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)

Incorrect. Scripture does not teach that the Body of Christ escapes the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is God’s judgment upon His own New Testament congregation that has become unfaithful—spiritually Babylon—not upon a physical nation-state. This is exactly why God commands His people to “come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues” (Revelation 18:4). You don’t flee from something you’re not present in.

The imagery of people being taken and others left, and the eagle’s wings carrying God’s elect to testify, all point to spiritual separation and judgment within the visible church, not a military invasion of modern Israel. The “army” entering the land in Joel is symbolic language for the flood of false prophets, false christs, and spiritual deception that infiltrates the church in the end-times (Joel 2; Matthew 24).

You’re interpreting “Israel” as the physical nation, but the New Testament defines Israel as all who are in Christ—the covenant people (Romans 2:28–29; Galatians 3:29). Therefore the judgment falls first on the house of God (1 Peter 4:17), meaning the New Testament congregation.

So no—Joel is not predicting a modern military descending on national Israel. The prophecy concerns the spiritual condition of God’s church, which has become Babylon and is undergoing judgment. And that is how we know the end is near, not by watching geopolitical armies but by recognizing the spiritual desolation within the visible church.

Selah!

 

[Davy]

Hi Davy,

I agree we, the Body of Christ are NOT in the Day of the LORD, (God Almighty in Judgment) time period. Interesting to note that when the northern great army (& others) come down to the mountains of Israel, then that is the beginning of the Day of the LORD. Thus when we see that great army descending to Israel we know we will be going `home.` (Joel 2: 1 & 2)

Yes, kind of... . I actually see the "day of the Lord" coming with the battle of Armageddon when Jesus brings His army from Heaven to do battle against the great army out of the northern quarters. That's the day of His return. And you know, what you are saying Jesus showed in the Luke 21:20-22 with those armies surrounding Jerusalem...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
KJV

 

[Davy]

"Modern-day Jewish theory" about today's nation state of Israel?!

What are you talking about?? I did not say things like this. You need to learn to quote what I wrote to know what you are talking about.

I agree with what you said about 'watching' per Jesus' command, totally with that.

But what you said here is way off from the actual Biblical timeline of the end...

You said and I quote:

"First, He comes spiritually and invisibly to judge His house after releasing Satan for a little season as a judgment. AND THEN, at the Second Coming, He comes visibly to judge the whole world."​

Jesus comes only one more time, not two like you have it above, and definitely not invisibly. Maybe you don't realize how God can judge both the Just and the unjust at the same time on the "day of the Lord", in the same "hour", like Jesus showed with the resurrection on that day per John 5:28-29?

A suggested 'secret' invisible coming prior to His 2nd coming is part of John Darby's original teaching of a secret pre-trib rapture back in 1830's Britain. It is not Biblical. Jesus returns one more time, and that is His 2nd coming to gather His faithful Church.

 

[Davy]

False.

Sorry, but that Joel 3 Scripture is about Christ's 2nd coming. That is when the "day of the Lord" happens, on the day of Christ's SECOND COMING. And that... is the same day when He gathers His faithful Church after... the "great tribulation". Jesus' 2nd coming will actually end the "great tribulation".

I understand that the false Pre-trib Rapture doctors have modified their pre-trib theory once again; they wrongly try to move the "day of the Lord" back in time within the "great tribulation" time. Not so per God's written Word. They do that mainly because they are deceived about the "wrath" that Apostle Paul mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 5:9. They treat that "wrath" Paul mentioned as being Satan's wrath during the tribulation. But instead it is about God's wrath on the 7th Vial on the last day when Jesus' 2nd coming occurs. See Zechariah 14 about that day. See the 6th Seal about that day of His wrath, and Rev.19 with Jesus' coming with His army to do battle.

Sigh...

I wasn't joking when I asked if you had read the Joel parallels written in The New Testament. It would appear you haven't done that.

Judgment of New Testament congregation when she has become Babylon for her unfaithfulness, Revelation 18.

Those you are listening to, you need to RUN... away from them as fast as you can. They are deceivers. New Testament believers are NOT going to become Babylon. The idea of the Revelation Babylon Harlot is about a "great city" per the end of Revelation 17. Haven't you read that? Now I'm not saying there won't be brethren deceived by the coming false-Messiah who will play Christ at Jerusalem. But the idea of the Christian Church becoming Babylon at the end, nah... that's a made-up doctrine from men.

Judgment of New Testament congregation.

Judgment of the New Testament congregation.

Judgment of the New Testament congregation prior to the Second Coming of Christ.

It is your skewed... view of judgment upon the Christian Church that suggests you don't know your New Testament Scriptures, and that you instead are suggesting that deceived Israel is saved instead of Christ's Church. The reason I say that, because the judgment of the wicked you are trying to apply to the Church, and that is not what The New Testament teaches.

So I'll have no more of your dilly-dally corrupt thinking about Christ's Church.

 

[rwb]

If we are watching, then we will see the thief coming to break into the house. This refers to Christ’s judgment on the church, not the final day for the world. First, He comes spiritually and invisibly to judge His house after releasing Satan for a little season as a judgment. AND THEN, at the Second Coming, He comes visibly to judge the whole world.

Selah.

1st Thessalonians 5:2-7

• For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
• For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
• But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
• Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
• Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
• For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night."

TS, not sure that I quite agree! Why do you believe that judgment of the church is Christ first coming invisibly, and later physically for the whole world in a second coming? While I agree judgment must begin at the house of God, and I also believe this judgment is spiritual, I don't liken it to Christ's coming first in judgment against the church during Satan's little season and then a second coming physically for the whole earth.

1 Peter 4:17 (KJV) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My view of God's spiritual judgment against the church throughout this age of time (a thousand years). Are the judgments the seven churches in Rev are warned of if they do not repent of being fallen and become lifeless and dark because the Light of God has been removed.

Revelation 2:5 (KJV) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

 

[Marilyn C]

Incorrect. Scripture does not teach that the Body of Christ escapes the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord is God’s judgment upon His own New Testament congregation that has become unfaithful—spiritually Babylon—not upon a physical nation-state. This is exactly why God commands His people to “come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues” (Revelation 18:4). You don’t flee from something you’re not present in.

The imagery of people being taken and others left, and the eagle’s wings carrying God’s elect to testify, all point to spiritual separation and judgment within the visible church, not a military invasion of modern Israel. The “army” entering the land in Joel is symbolic language for the flood of false prophets, false christs, and spiritual deception that infiltrates the church in the end-times (Joel 2; Matthew 24).

You’re interpreting “Israel” as the physical nation, but the New Testament defines Israel as all who are in Christ—the covenant people (Romans 2:28–29; Galatians 3:29). Therefore the judgment falls first on the house of God (1 Peter 4:17), meaning the New Testament congregation.

So no—Joel is not predicting a modern military descending on national Israel. The prophecy concerns the spiritual condition of God’s church, which has become Babylon and is undergoing judgment. And that is how we know the end is near, not by watching geopolitical armies but by recognizing the spiritual desolation within the visible church.

Selah!

Hi TS,

Actually God`s Word tells us something different.

`The great day of the LORD is near....a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness...` (Zeph. 1: 14 & 15)

`But you, brethren are NOT in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of DARKNESS.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

 

[TribulationSigns]

TS, not sure that I quite agree! Why do you believe that judgment of the church is Christ first coming invisibly, and later physically for the whole world in a second coming?

This is what I believe is what the Bible teaches as you will read my recent response to others here.

While I agree judgment must begin at the house of God, and I also believe this judgment is spiritual,

Yes.

I don't liken it to Christ's coming first in judgment against the church during Satan's little season and then a second coming physically for the whole earth.

1 Peter 4:17 (KJV) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV) And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

My view of God's spiritual judgment against the church throughout this age of time (a thousand years). Are the judgments the seven churches in Rev are warned of if they do not repent of being fallen and become lifeless and dark because the Light of God has been removed.

Revelation 2:5 (KJV) Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

The judgment on the church cannot begin until the testimony of the Two Witnesses is completed first, Selah. Their 1,260 symbolic days for testimony represent the entire ‘Day of Salvation’—the full period in which God’s saving work goes forth through the Church (Elect). Because of this, the Lord first seals His people before judgment falls as Revelation 7:1-4 tells us. Only after their testimony is finished does God permit the loosening of Satan.

It is at that point—after the Two Witnesses finish their witness—that the light of God is removed from the visible church. Then the ‘Spirit of Life’ revives the Two Witnesses, moving God’s people to depart from the church so they do not partake in her plagues and judgment.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Hi TS,

Actually God`s Word tells us something different.

`The great day of the LORD is near....a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness...` (Zeph. 1: 14 & 15)

`But you, brethren are NOT in darkness, so that this day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are NOT of the night nor of DARKNESS.` (1 Thess. 5: 4 & 5)

First, do you even understand what darkness, gloominess, and a day of clouds refer to in Scripture? Are you really thinking these are physical storm clouds or smoke from some forest fire? No—these images point to spiritual judgment. So before making assumptions, ask yourself: where does this ‘clouds and darkness’ actually come from? Hmmm?

 

[TribulationSigns]

Sorry, but that Joel 3 Scripture is about Christ's 2nd coming. That is when the "day of the Lord" happens, on the day of Christ's SECOND COMING. And that... is the same day when He gathers His faithful Church after... the "great tribulation". Jesus' 2nd coming will actually end the "great tribulation".

Time out... back up a bit... You say Joel 3, eh? Do you really understand what the whole chapter talked about, seriousily?

For example, answer the questions:

Joe 3:1
(1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

What days did the Lord talk about here when He will bring captivity to Judah and Jerusalem What captivity is this? And who does Judah and Jerusalem refers to?

Joe 3:2
(2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

What nations are they? And what does the valley of Jehoshaphat refers to? It does have spiritual signification if you research more with Scripture.

Joe 3:5
(5) Because ye have taken my silver and my gold, and have carried into your temples my goodly pleasant things:

What silver and gold did the Lord talk about here? What is goodly pleasant things? You need to compare Scripture with Scripture to find out what God talked about here. It is not about physical gold and silver. Considering the judgment of Babylon the Great:

Rev 18:10-14
(10) Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
(11) And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
(12) The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
(13) And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
(14) And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.

God made us his merchants to sell merchandises to the world for salvation. The merchandises here spiritually represent GOSPEL that this woman receive at Pentecost. But today, after all Elect has been secured by the testimony of the church (Two Witnesses) the love of God grow cold and she becomes more apostasy than ever, as more and more professed believers of the congregation will NOT be able to buy Gold and Silver, goodly things anymore as a judgment. They no longer find salvation because all Elect has been secured before the loosening of Satan. Selah. Therefore as God's judgment for their rebellion, he has removed all the merchandises from her... by allowing the enemes to make church spiritual naked. This is what Joel 3 talked about. Nothing to do with nation Israel or physical gold and silver.

Joe 3:8-10
(8) And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
(9) Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
(10) Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

Why do you think God will sell their sons and daughters? Why do they beat their plowshares and pruninghooks BACK into swords and spears once again after t hey received, Isa 2:4 and Mich 4:3? What is the meaning for plowshares and pruninghooks if you know what the Lord talked about here?

Something to think about carefully, right? It takes spiritual discerned to understand what the Lord talked about here. Selah!

 

[TribulationSigns]

I agree with what you said about 'watching' per Jesus' command, totally with that.

But what you said here is way off from the actual Biblical timeline of the end...

You said and I quote:

"First, He comes spiritually and invisibly to judge His house after releasing Satan for a little season as a judgment. AND THEN, at the Second Coming, He comes visibly to judge the whole world."​

Jesus comes only one more time, not two like you have it above, and definitely not invisibly.

Perhaps you should revisit Matthew 25 again about the parables of the Ten Virgins.
Mat 25:1-10
(1) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
(2) And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
(3) They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
(4) But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
(5) While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
(6) And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
(7) Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
(8) And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
(9) But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
(10) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

In this parable, the ‘kingdom of heaven’ represents the visible Church on Earth. The ten virgins symbolize all who are part of the congregation. The wise virgins are the chosen elect—those truly saved and filled with the Spirit of Christ (the oil). The foolish virgins are professing Christians who outwardly participate in the Church but do not possess the Spirit. Get it?

Now, after all the elect are sealed and the testimony of the Two Witnesses is completed, Christ should come right away —but the parable shows He ‘tarries.’ This delay represents the little season of Great Tribulation: a period where Christ allows time to test and judge the unfaithful Church. The ‘sleeping’ of all ten virgins parallels the symbolic death of the Two Witnesses during the 3½ days.

Then, ‘at midnight’—the darkest moment for the Church—the cry goes out: ‘Behold, the Bridegroom comes!’ This awakening shows that both the elect and the professing believers now recognize that Christ is coming and about to act. But the foolish do not realize that Christ is coming to judge the Church first. Only the Elect (with oil) now "see" and are prepared, not surprised by the judgment of the church that has to take place first. This is why they are having the light of truth to guide them.

The foolish virgins then ask the wise for oil, meaning they have the desire to be saved at that moment which is too late. So the wise reply that there is not enough to give—not because of selfishness, but because all the elect have already been secured; the day of salvation has ended. The foolish are told to go to ‘those who buy and sell.’ This language echoes the imagery of the fallen end-time Church tied to the mark of the beast—where spiritual buying and selling continues, but without truth and salvation. This is the judgment of the Church!

While the foolish continue going to that fallen church seeking what can no longer be given, the Bridegroom comes visibly which is the Second Coming at the last trump on the last day. Those who were truly ready—the elect—enter with Him, and the door is shut.

Therefore, you are wrong with your position. Christ's Second Coming is two-folded which in itself is the day of the Lord that started with the judgment of the church and ends with his visible return in the air.

Selah

 

[Marilyn C]

First, do you even understand what darkness, gloominess, and a day of clouds refer to in Scripture? Are you really thinking these are physical storm clouds or smoke from some forest fire? No—these images point to spiritual judgment. So before making assumptions, ask yourself: where does this ‘clouds and darkness’ actually come from? Hmmm?

It is both - darkness spiritual and physical.

`Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. And they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.` (Rev. 16: 10 & 11)

 

[Davy]

Time out... back up a bit... You say Joel 3, eh? Do you really understand what the whole chapter talked about, seriousily?

Firstly, you CANNOT ISOLATE the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem from the many other relative time Scriptures about the "day of the Lord".

For example, answer the questions:

Joe 3:1
(1) For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,

What days did the Lord talk about here when He will bring captivity to Judah and Jerusalem What captivity is this? And who does Judah and Jerusalem refers to?

Like I spoke before about your posts, you are TRYING to establish the Jews' 1948 return as the nation of Israel again as a proof of future events that have YET TO COME TODAY.

That captivity of Judah and Jerusalem idea is about the event of Christ's FUTURE 2nd coming. That... is when that will happen. It's NOT about 1948.

Or have you not yet realized that TODAY'S JERUSALEM isn't even possessed and controlled completely by the Jews in the nation of Israel?? The United Nations still CONTROLS today's Israel's borders! And the Arabs have been given about half of Jerusalem, AND control of the Temple Mount! How is it you are BLIND to that and lie to yourself?

Joe 3:2
(2) I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

What nations are they? And what does the valley of Jehoshaphat refers to? It does have spiritual signification if you research more with Scripture.

Spiritual signification? It has a basis in God's REALITY, which is what you need a check with, a reality check per GOD's Word, and not a bunch of silliness from men's doctrines.

On the LAST DAY of this present world, SPECIFIC nations listed in Ezekiel 38 are going to come out of the northern quarters of this earth upon Israel seeking to destroy it. That is when Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming will occur to stop it, per the battle of Armageddon of Revelation 19 and Ezekiel 38-39. And that will not... involve only the nation state of Israel today, it will also involve that army coming upon the western Christian nations also, the other Israel. And if you didn't know that God's Israel today are divided into "two nations", one established by God through the scattering of the ten lost tribes, and the other through Judah at Jerusalem, then it means you have NOT really paid attention in Bible study.

 

[Davy]

Perhaps you should revisit Matthew 25 again about the parables of the Ten Virgins.
....

Nah... because I know that Matt.25 ten virgins parable well.

What YOU NEED is to learn are the SIGNS of the end of this world that Jesus showed His FAITHFUL Church in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and its parallel of the SEALS of Revelation 6.

In this parable, the ‘kingdom of heaven’ represents the visible Church on Earth. The ten virgins symbolize all who are part of the congregation. The wise virgins are the chosen elect—those truly saved and filled with the Spirit of Christ (the oil). The foolish virgins are professing Christians who outwardly participate in the Church but do not possess the Spirit. Get it?

Again, another fooled soul by men's false doctrines who thinks TODAY THIS WORLD IS CHRIST'S KINGDOM COME?? Yeah, you guys have DEEP SAND to bury your head in, and a lot of it!

The Kingdom of Heaven Jesus mentioned in that ten virgins parable is NOT of this present world. The main subject of that parable is about those ten virgins WAITING for what? Waiting for the coming of the Bridegroom, represented by Jesus and His FUTURE 2ND COMING! That, at His future coming, is when His Kingdom will LITERALLY manifest upon this earth over ALL nations. How in the world could you miss that and be so deceived?

Go back and do more Bible study. You've got a lot to learn.

 

[TribulationSigns]

It is both - darkness spiritual and physical.

No.

`Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain. And they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds.` (Rev. 16: 10 & 11)

You think it’s going to happen physically? Absolutely not.

Let me ask you something—do you even know where the throne of the beast is?
Which kingdom is it that becomes full of darkness?
What does it mean when it says they gnaw their tongues?
What are the pains and sores referring to?
And why—after all of that—do they still refuse to repent of their deeds?

If you want to answer, then answer biblically.
Don’t fall back on the vague, lazy excuse of: ‘It’s both spiritual and physical.’”

Can't wait to hear your biblical interpretation for these verses YOU QUOTED to see if you understand what the Lord talked about.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Like I spoke before about your posts, you are TRYING to establish the Jews' 1948 return as the nation of Israel again as a proof of future events that have YET TO COME TODAY.

Huh?? Where did I talk about the Jews in 1948.

That captivity of Judah and Jerusalem idea is about the event of Christ's FUTURE 2nd coming. That... is when that will happen. It's NOT about 1948.

I never talked about 1948. You clearly do not understand what I was talking about or the questions I asked you.

Or have you not yet realized that TODAY'S JERUSALEM isn't even possessed and controlled completely by the Jews in the nation of Israel??

Chuckle. You got wrong Jerusalem. :-)

The United Nations still CONTROLS today's Israel's borders! And the Arabs have been given about half of Jerusalem, AND control of the Temple Mount! How is it you are BLIND to that and lie to yourself?

I am not blind at all. I was not talking about physical city in the Middle East. Again you got wrong Jerusalem, wrong temple, wrong borders.

Spiritual signification? It has a basis in God's REALITY, which is what you need a check with, a reality check per GOD's Word, and not a bunch of silliness from men's doctrines.

What men's doctrines?

On the LAST DAY of this present world, SPECIFIC nations listed in Ezekiel 38 are going to come out of the northern quarters of this earth upon Israel seeking to destroy it. That is when Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming will occur to stop it, per the battle of Armageddon of Revelation 19 and Ezekiel 38-39. And that will not... involve only the nation state of Israel today, it will also involve that army coming upon the western Christian nations also, the other Israel. And if you didn't know that God's Israel today are divided into "two nations", one established by God through the scattering of the ten lost tribes, and the other through Judah at Jerusalem, then it means you have NOT really paid attention in Bible study.

Face palm. Okay. I will take that you still do not understand it spiritual discerned. You need to stop reading too much Jerusalem Post for interpretation.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Nah... because I know that Matt.25 ten virgins parable well.

Nah.

What YOU NEED is to learn are the SIGNS of the end of this world that Jesus showed His FAITHFUL Church in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and its parallel of the SEALS of Revelation 6.

Humm... and?

Again, another fooled soul by men's false doctrines who thinks TODAY THIS WORLD IS CHRIST'S KINGDOM COME?? Yeah, you guys have DEEP SAND to bury your head in, and a lot of it!

Tell that at the feet of the Lord on Judgment Day and see if He agrees with you.

The Kingdom of Heaven Jesus mentioned in that ten virgins parable is NOT of this present world.

That is right. The kingdom of Heaven is God's congregation on Earth. Not the world itself.

The main subject of that parable is about those ten virgins WAITING for what? Waiting for the coming of the Bridegroom, represented by Jesus and His FUTURE 2ND COMING!

Of course... That is what I was saying. The question is, do you even understand who the ten virgins are?

That, at His future coming, is when His Kingdom will LITERALLY manifest upon this earth over ALL nations. How in the world could you miss that and be so deceived?

No problem with it. Your point is?

Go back and do more Bible study. You've got a lot to learn.

I’ve heard that often, usually from those who struggle to understand Scripture—either because the message is hard to accept or they lack spiritual discernment. Typically coming from a Foolish Virgin. :-)

 

[Davy]

Huh?? Where did I talk about the Jews in 1948.

When you tried to put the Joel 3:15-16 Scripture in the sense as already having happened, per your post #139. Don't remember your own statements?

You said:

"There are the Day of the Lord for each of His congregation, whether Israel of Old or the Church of New, depending on the context. For example:​

​

Joel 3:15-16​

​

• "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
• The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel."

The end result was that the Lord cleansed the blood of people that He had not cleansed (Gentiles), and the New Testament church was established. The stars didn't literally/physically withdraw their shining or fall from the heavens; this all indicated the darkness in apostasy that was in Old Testament congregation as the messengers of God fell away from Him, and their Kingdom representative was taken (Matthew 21:42-43) from them. It is God's definition of signs, not the false teachers' definition."​

​

​

That is your treating the "day of the Lord" in Joel 3 in a past... context, when it has not happened yet. Or maybe you haven't read Joel 3 far enough to actually understand what timing it will be...

You guys keep forcing me to post whole groups of Bible Scripture as if you've never seen it!

Joel 3:2-21
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted My land.
3 And they have cast lots for My people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
4 Yea, and what have ye to do with Me, O Tyre, and Zidon, and all the coasts of Palestine? will ye render Me a recompence? and if ye recompence Me, swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;
5 Because ye have taken My silver and My gold, and have carried into your temples My goodly pleasant things:
6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.
7 Behold, I will raise them out of the place whither ye have sold them, and will return your recompence upon your own head:
8 And I will sell your sons and your daughters into the hand of the children of Judah, and they shall sell them to the Sabeans, to a people far off: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
20 But Judah shall dwell for ever, and Jerusalem from generation to generation.
21 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion.
KJV

All those above passages in 'red' are for the STILL FUTURE 2ND COMING OF JESUS CHRIST. That is covering the symbolic harvest time of Revelation 19 about Jesus' future coming with His army from heaven. That "valley of Jehoshaphat" is about the battle of Armageddon when the nations will come up against Jerusalem surrounding it, on the LAST DAY of this present world. And that is when Jesus will appear with HIS ARMY from Heaven.

The that idea of The LORD dwelling in Zion is about Christ's having 'literally' returned to this earth, and begins His "thousand years" reign of Revelation 20 with His elect Church. That 18th verse even speaks of the return of God's River of the waters of life at Jerusalem, which is NOT for this present world, but only when Jesus returns to earth. That is what that fountain is that shall come forth of the house of the LORD. It is shown in detail in Ezekiel 47 with the Millennial sanctuary, God's house, THE house which Jesus said there are "many mansions" within per John 14.

Thus WHO... would want us to think that Joel 3:15-16 Scripture was PAST HISTORY? That Joel 3 Chapter is about Judah's deliverance. So who did YOU get that doctrine from with thinking that Joel 3 Chapter has ALREADY HAPPENED associated with Christ's 1st coming??? It has not yet happened, the orthodox Jews today in Jerusalem HAVE NOT YET been delivered by God. As a matter fact, per New Testament prophecy about the END by The LORD, given through His prophet Daniel, and by Lord Jesus and His Apostles per The New Testament, Judah in today's nation state of Israel will be directly under one of the greatest moments of deception by the devil that this world has ever known, with the "great tribulation". So no, Judah has NOT been delivered yet, far from it. But WHO would want us to think their return in 1948 to create the nation state of Israel again is... about their deliverance? The FALSE JEWS of the "synagogue of Satan" are behind that, that's who. They don't believe Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ; they had Him crucified, and if He were to return like His 1st coming again today, they would crucify HIm today again, because they are NOT of God, for He is not their father, like Jesus said to them in John 8.

But it's probably that you don't have a clue about all that, because you obviously have not properly interpreted that Joel 3 Chapter as a whole, (or maybe you do understand and you're just being coy here).