We ask for a fish and you give us a serpent?

[Jay Ross]

I'm not apart from Christ so what you are describing does not apply to me.

Let us know how that apart from Christ thing works out for ya.



I don't pay attention to the lies of demons, but feel free to engage in that sort of thing if you must.

Looks like you did not understand that a very different meaning was intended with the word "apart," from the way you had intended the word "apart" to mean. Shorthand words do not always lead to clarity when used without first defining what they may mean. Context is very important to establish when we all try to express ideas with words that can have many different meanings from the one that we may have intended.

Shalom

 

[Dash RipRock]

Looks like you did not understand that a very different meaning was intended with the word "apart," from the way you had intended the word "apart" to mean

Apart means to be separated.

It's n not my problem if others don't know what apart means

apart /ə-pärt′/

adverb​

1. At a distance in place, position, or time.
   "railings spaced two feet apart; born three years apart."
2. Away from another or others.
   "grew apart over the years; decided to live apart."
3. In or into parts or pieces.
   "split apart."

 

[TLHKAJ]

We are all of us poor and misguided sinners apart from Christ, all in need of the same salvation. The more we know Christ, and His love for us, the more we will show His love for others though our words and actions, and particularly how we think and feel inside.

Amen ....key words, not to be overlooked .... "apart from Christ." Well said.

 

[Jay Ross]

Apart means to be separated.

It's n not my problem if others don't know what apart means

Yes, your definition is just one of the ways that "apart" can be used in a sentence.

If we take another four-letter word, like "take" it has around 75 different contextual meanings, like, "take a seat" which can mean, "to sit" or to "carry," or "to take a trick" means "to win a trick" in a card game like Bridge or Five Hundred.

The expression that has been used in a post above in this form,

Apart from Christ, we are all the same.

What Marks states that when we live apart from the teaching of Christ, that we are all sinners. Another understanding is that "Apart from Christ there is no salvation, only sinners."

Both you and Marks have posted that each of you have a fundamental relationship with Christ that will lead to Eternal Life if each holds fast to Christ.

Your claim that "we cannot stand apart from Christ" is true because if we stand apart from Christ, we become sinners.

Marks claim that "Apart from Christ's {Salvation} we are all the same, {we remain sinners}," is also true.

From where I am observing this thread as an outsider, both of you are sinning by judging the other's salvation by your own respective standards, which means that you are both acting "God Like" and as such you both have deliberately turned away from God and because of this turning away to judge the validity of each other's salvation you both are sinning.

It is very easy to cross over the invisible line in the sand with respect to acting God Like. May God keep drawing both you and marks into His loving Embrace so that you both remain within His loving Embrace.

Shalom

 

[Triumph1300]

Who said they were Christians?

I didn't, but most on this forum seem to think they are.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I didn't, but most on this forum seem to think they are.

Isn’t this what Jesus indicated was the problem…? The “goats” imagine that they are “sheep” and are shocked at his rejection….they attempt to sell him their excuses but he doesn’t buy them. (Matt 7:21-23)

It is apparent that God will not interfere with our decisions, which are ours to make of our own free will.

If we are attracted by the truth, God will “draw” us to it, (John 6:44; 65) in spite of all attempts from outside influences to sway us in another direction. Like the first Christians….often the heaviest persecution and opposition comes from those who purport to worship the same God…and even from those closest to us. (Matt 10:34-39) There is a reason why the road to life is cramped and difficult.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Yes, your definition is just one of the ways that "apart" can be used in a sentence.

If we take another four-letter word, like "take" it has around 75 different contextual meanings, like, "take a seat" which can mean, "to sit" or to "carry," or "to take a trick" means "to win a trick" in a card game like Bridge or Five Hundred.

The expression that has been used in a post above in this form,


What Marks states that when we live apart from the teaching of Christ, that we are all sinners. Another understanding is that "Apart from Christ there is no salvation, only sinners."

Both you and Marks have posted that each of you have a fundamental relationship with Christ that will lead to Eternal Life if each holds fast to Christ.

Your claim that "we cannot stand apart from Christ" is true because if we stand apart from Christ, we become sinners.

Marks claim that "Apart from Christ's {Salvation} we are all the same, {we remain sinners}," is also true.

From where I am observing this thread as an outsider, both of you are sinning by judging the other's salvation by your own respective standards, which means that you are both acting "God Like" and as such you both have deliberately turned away from God and because of this turning away to judge the validity of each other's salvation you both are sinning.

It is very easy to cross over the invisible line in the sand with respect to acting God Like. May God keep drawing both you and marks into His loving Embrace so that you both remain within His loving Embrace.

Shalom

Love this post. I don’t love it to applaud making other members feel zeroed in on. I love the post in the sense that it is a trap we all fall into. Which makes your words above valuable for learning we all do this acting "God Like" and as such you both have deliberately turned away from God and because of this turning away to judge.

Love, love that one line: deliberately turned away from God and because of this turning away to judge.
I do believe it’s supported by the word regarding the mirror and whether we turn away from it, seeing our own natural face, we turn away and go out own way or ….
James 1:22-25 ESV
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. [23] For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. [24] For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. [25] But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Love, love that one line: deliberately turned away from God and because of this turning away to judge.

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. [24] For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

James 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaks evil of his brother, and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law, and judges the law: but if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law, but a judge.

But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.

 

[marks]

From where I am observing this thread as an outsider, both of you are sinning by judging the other's salvation by your own respective standards,

Um. I'm not judging anyone's salvation. I have no personal knowledge whether any one here is truly in Christ or not. So this is projection on your part.

You've claimed I said,

"What Marks states that when we live apart from the teaching of Christ, that we are all sinners."

Yet I did not, so you've put words into my mouth, and act as though this is real. And that's not the only thing, but what is the point to mention everything? Only that you continue as you have for many years.


Whether you choose to relook at this, or double down, that's up to you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

"God Like" and as such you both have deliberately turned away from God and because of this turning away to judge.

Except it's not accurate.

Jay Ross has been my detractor across forums, and not everything every one says is real.

So now I am judged as being judgmental, do you see how this works?

So this thread promotes fish, but gives stones. Feel free to carry on, I'm out.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Except it's not accurate.

Jay Ross has been my detractor across forums, and not everything every one says is real.

So now I am judged as being judgmental, do you see how this works?

So this thread promotes fish, but gives stones. Feel free to carry on, I'm out.

Much love!

Oh right . . . I remember the OP . . . about those who should give help and edification, who only tear down.

Maybe we will roll our eyes and write it off as a lie and not significant. Are we deceiving ourselves? What I hear is “where is the Fruit??”

There it is.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Except it's not accurate.

Jay Ross has been my detractor across forums, and not everything every one says is real.

So now I am judged as being judgmental, do you see how this works?

So this thread promotes fish, but gives stones. Feel free to carry on, I'm out.

Much love!

I’m sick with bronchitis right now so I’m not thinking to clear. I am sorry if I made you feel judged as judgmental. That was not my intent. My focus was on how I myself fall into that trap. I tried to stress I think we all do fall into that trap at some point in relationships, speaking of not only on here but in day to day life. I’ve noticed lately I focus too much on what someone is saying or their actions towards me that I feel is judging me, or criticizing me. From focusing so much on where I catch them doing this, I wonder if that is my also judging them. The same thing I’m saying they do to me. I was not trying to single you out, but my intent was only to say what Jay said was helpful.

I do get what you said here

So this thread promotes fish, but gives stones. Feel free to carry on, I'm out.

I agree it may be more of the same giving of a stone. But that is why this stood out to me about considering … turning away to judge. to me it fits with asking for a fish and getting a stone. While I am judging someone word’s constantly (I mean relationships in life) by waiting for that criticism, or judgement, or condemnation…I do wonder if then that makes me someone not giving a fish but a stone. In turning away from them to judge. Does that make sense?

 

[Jay Ross]

What Marks states that when we live apart from the teaching of Christ, that we are all sinners. Another understanding is that "Apart from Christ there is no salvation, only sinners."

Apart from Christ, we are all the same.

Um. I'm not judging anyone's salvation. I have no personal knowledge whether any one here is truly in Christ or not. So this is projection on your part.

You've claimed I said,

"What Marks states that when we live apart from the teaching of Christ, that we are all sinners."

Yet I did not, so you've put words into my mouth, and act as though this is real. And that's not the only thing, but what is the point to mention everything? Only that you continue as you have for many years.


Whether you choose to relook at this, or double down, that's up to you.

Much love!

Mark, your quoted statement above can be taken one of two ways by the readers by how the word "apart" is understood.

"Apart from Christ," i.e. this is the only way to salvation, or we are standing apart from Christ, "we are all the same." i.e. we are all sinners, or we are the same only through accepting Christ's salvation.

It may have been clear in your mind what you were stating, but for others it became a red flag for them to charge at.

@Dash RipRock took the first understanding and bit back and then you also saw a red flag to blow steam at and become offended at what he had posted.

Apart means to be separated.

Written communication requires a tighter more detailed presentation/response whereas with verbal communication we can be briefer in what we say because the feedback loop is much faster and so we can respond and correct what we have said immediately on seeing the reaction of the person we are communicating with face to face to clarify what it is that we have said.

Written communication requires the reader to ask question that will help him clarify what it is that the writer has written. Reacting to what has been written without grasping what has been written does lead to major head butting on forums.

It seems that you are a fragile person and your response to what I had posted simply just demonstrates this fact. Something that I have noticed happening over the years of our online forum interactions.

So, this thread promotes fish but gives stones. Feel free to carry on, I'm out.

Honest reflection is required by all members and readers on "Christian" forums.

Shalom

 

[marks]

Does that make sense?

Yes, it does, and I found value in thinking about that. The part I objected to was the other fellow's claim that I'm judging other's salvation, as though I thought I could see into another's heart.

But I found your posts meaningful, which is no surprise!

"Apart from Christ," i.e. this is the only way to salvation, or we are standing apart from Christ, "we are all the same." i.e. we are all sinners, or we are the same only through accepting Christ's salvation.

I'd like to think we've cleared this up by now and don't need to continue to rehash the matter.

If you are not in Christ, you are not saved, and are still a sinner. If you are in Christ, you are saved, you are regenerate. Are we OK now?

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

Yes, it does, and I found value in thinking about that. The part I objected to was the other fellow's claim that I'm judging other's salvation, as though I thought I could see into another's heart.

But I found your posts meaningful, which is no surprise!


I'd like to think we've cleared this up by now and don't need to continue to rehash the matter.

If you are not in Christ, you are not saved, and are still a sinner. If you are in Christ, you are saved, you are regenerate. Are we OK now?

Much love!

If you had said that in the first place, it would have resulted in a very different response in this thread from @Dash RipRock and me.

 

[marks]

If you had said that in the first place, it would have resulted in a very different response in this thread from @Dash RipRock and me.

Well, I said what I did, and the charge began. Good show! And there is no assurance of reasonable replies from either you or the other fellow regardless, I've seen enough to know that.

Not to mention, others understood me.

I think this is why Jesus spoke about the heart being revealed in men's words.

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

Well, I said what I did, and the charge began. Good show! And there is no assurance of reasonable replies from either you or the other fellow regardless, I've seen enough to know that.

Not to mention, others understood me.

I think this is why Jesus spoke about the heart being revealed in men's words.

Much love!

Marks, if you had read my first post in this thread, you would have noticed that I was actually defending what you had written; that the words "Apart from" could be taken to mean more than just being separated from Christ which was how @Dash RipRock understood what you had posted. Dash Rip Rock arced up over what you had posted and then you arced up over his response.

The funny thing is that "we ask for a fish and you give us a stone." We ask to receive a fish but God has a sense of humour in that when He is ready to establish His everlasting Kingdom, He lets down a stone/rock, untouched by human hands, from heaven to become the basis of the "Christian Religion." This stone/rock will, over time, become the largest mountain in all of the earth.

Sadly, this foundation stone/rock has caused many a disagreement between people who call Jesus, "Lord, Lord," and He has warned us that too many who claim that they have been doing His bidding, that His response will be, "I never knew you."

Yes Marks, it is the fruit of our endeavours that will show others the condition of our heart towards Christ/God. Sadly, much of the fruit that we produce/grown for Christ is blemished and not suitable to be offered up as a genuine sacrifice of praise to God.

I just wonder whether or not we are all misinformed about the things of heaven and what is required of us or does our pride get in the way of an honest relationship with the Father.

Shalom

 

[marks]

"Apart from"

The interesting thing to me is how people embue meaning into sentences where it's not found. Just like in John 15, how so many people simply assume that the branch that does not abide in Christ once did.

"Apart from" is such a simple phrase, with such a simple meaning. If someone reads it as "separated from", or something else, well, I see that a lot. Questions are good. Discussion is good. This exhange, it's a tempest in a tea pot. And it's not over yet.

Much love!

 

[Jay Ross]

The interesting thing to me is how people embue meaning into sentences where it's not found. Just like in John 15, how so many people simply assume that the branch that does not abide in Christ once did.

"Apart from" is such a simple phrase, with such a simple meaning. If someone reads it as "separated from", or something else, well, I see that a lot. Questions are good. Discussion is good. This exchange, it's a tempest in a tea pot. And it's not over yet.

Much love!

Mark, you have touched upon the art of good communication.

Good communication only happens when the reader of what a person writes or speaks, comes to the same intended understanding as the writer, when they constructed their form of communication for the reader to see or hear. The question comes as to who is primarily responsible for ensuring that good communication has occurred? In communication models, the primary responsibility is that of the initial writer of the communication. Now if the receiver of that communication from the writer realises that they have not come to the same understanding as the writer had then it is the reader's responsibility to ask for clarification of the communication package of the initiator of that communication package. This means that they should ask questions of the initial writer for clarification of what they were trying to communicate. The asking of questions seeking clarification of what the initial writer had intended to convey can led to a good discussion as the writer and reader seeks to resolve what the intended content of the original package was.

Now in all communications, there are other influences that will impact upon the conversation that will influence whether or not understanding will come easily. Good communication requires that people speak with each other and not at each other.

Having third parties involved in the conversation also adds a complicating dynamic to any conversation.

For me it seems that @Dash RipRock only talks at people rather than with people.

In any good communication process, it requires all involved parties to be prepared to learn from the other participants and to be prepared to change their understanding on the topic being discussed between the parties.

Mark your conversation with Dash RipRock hit an intransient roadblock that impacted on you having a good conversation with him. Blaming other for not understanding what you were trying to say does not help at all. Being insecure and feeling that you are being personally attacked on the forum does not help in have good communication/conversations.

Now Mark, this post is not a personal attack against you as we all have baggage that we should eject and not allow into the conversations that we are having on this forum which will cloud the viability of the conversations that we will have with other members.

Shalom

 

[marks]

Mark, you have touched upon the art of good communication.

I just want to let you know I'm not reading along here further.

Much love!