It is my belief that all ordinances have a root meaning. If we simply understand the true meaning of baptism and communion (Eucharist), the entire Bible opens like a flower. There are two points to discuss. Pick one or both.
1) Baptism, at its root, symbolizes our immersion into the waters of life. It's a concept from antiquity called Involution and Evolution. We are immersed in the waters so we can rise to new life. You must be born again. This is the Father's work to prepare us and bring us to the His Son and to His Spirit. Most importantly, the Flood of Genesis symbolizes the beasts riding in the ark. Ultimately, the Ark is the Earth.
1 Peter 3
[SIZE=.75em]20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[/SIZE]
2) The cup we carry is for the King. The King is actually doing the work. The Bread is what we share as the body below. Christ is the head above. The Baker bakes the bread (Trials). See Genesis 40 for this concept.
Stop here if you need a simple thread to answer. Use the rest below if you need more clarification. If you don't understand what I am saying, feel free to ask questions. No Ad Hominem please. It is defined like this:
Ad Hominem: An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). LINK
_______________________________________________
From here, I will outline why I believe what I believe. You can choose to travel with me as far down the list of verses as you want.
1) Baptism
I will not cover number 2 in a separate outline. Instead, I will incorporate it into this outline.
If you read 1 Peter 3, one of the best verses we have is the comparison of Noah building the Ark and baptism being the mechanism to save us in the water. Here, the waters of baptism are said to save. Although we know the truth behind faith, we may be unaware of the ordinance of Baptism having an actual meaning.
Contradiction: If you believe that the ordinance itself is a symbol, then what is the true meaning? Your conclusion must not create contradiction. As you compare your own view to my view, see which one denies the contradictions.
____________________________________________
To get this, we first need to know what the bread is that we share. The simple answer is the Son of God. He is the Stamp for the clay.
Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things,and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
This is the foundation verse. Next, we move on to who scripture is speaking to and when it is speaking to us.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
_____________________________________________
Scripture continually speaks to the reader as if they are every person who has ever lived. The Bible continually speaks to us as if we will be in the future to receive the blessings outlined. To really get this straight, we need to know who John the Baptist is by comparison to Elijah. We need to know why Ahab was told that the water would be turned off and when it comes back on. 1 Kings 17 is the key.
1 Kings 17
17 Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe[a] in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.”
Here, the symbolism of the Dew and Rain is used. Dew represents the droplets of water that comes in the morning. Compare this to Isaiah 26:
19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
What wrath is he speaking of here?
________________________________________________
Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 “I baptize you with[b] water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
When is the coming wrath? This would be the enemy being made the footstool. Today is that day and age. The Day of the Lord has a clear timetable based on the Grand Jubilees and many passages we can easily find. Here is a short list of the best of these sources:
Timing of the Day of the Lord with Witnesses
__________________________________________________
We have established that baptism is a key to water and that the water is symbolized by the flood of Noah. We have further see that a coming wrath will require that the water is used to repent. We also know that you must be born again.
1 Kings 17 still holds a key.
Elijah meets a woman at Zarephath (meaning refinery). She has a dead son. Elijah then takes the Son up stairs, revives his soul, then takes him back do again. What is this symbolizing? Our baptism. We must be born again.
Go back to John the Baptist now. The disciples asked if John was Elijah come to prepare the way. He said no, but he was the one crying in the wilderness and so on. He quoted the prophecy. Jesus was then asked. Jesus said he was Elijah. How does Elijah prepare the way?
In 1 Kings, he shut the water off. What is he doing in the first century? Turning it back on. You must be born again. People were choosing to be baptized as symbolism for being raised again from the dead. In other words, they were coming in faith to live again (resurrection) in the last day.
Here are a few places where you need to consider this by contradictions. Remember what John said to in Matthew 3. They needed to repent to fell the coming wrath. Who was he speaking to? The same brood of vipers that pierced Christ. When would they again see Christ? Before the coming day of wrath.
Revelation 1
7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[b]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[c]
So shall it be! Amen.
Again, who pierced Christ and when will they need to be born again to see this event with their own eyes?
_______________________________
Let's consult another source. Job said he knew the Redeemer. Let's see if he did:
Job 19
25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
---Did Job knew he would be born again? YES!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.[h]”
As we now turn back to the bread of communion, we need to see why Job identifies the root of the problem with the Redeemer. Who is the Redeemer? What is the Bread.
1 Corinthians 10
16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.
Who is the loaf? The Son of God, but we are all slices. Why is Christ the Son of God?
Luke 3
37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.
Who created Adam? The LORD. Genesis 2 is the second creation of the Lord. Genesis 1 is the creation of Elohim. See this link: We are in the image of Heaven.
On either side of a loaf of bread, there is a heel. Who is the Heel and why did Job say the root of the trouble is the Redeemer? The first and last Adam is the answer. 1 Corinthians is the key to all of this.
___________________________________
1 Corinthians 15
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
Here is the question you ask yourself. If we are slices of this loaf (Son of God), where is the body (Church)? In the water and being baked by the Baker.
I leave you to read Genesis 40 yourself. Don't be a baker. Bear the cup of the king instead.
I have much more to add if you would like. Argue this is if you can, but please use scripture and your own perspective. Don't attack me or the thread. If you can't speak to the subject, don't speak at all. Use the fruits of the Spirit when answering. Galatians 5.
Simple Version
Some of you will want a simple version to answer. Here are a few simple questions to get you reflecting on the Thread topic properly.
Read (Heb 9:28) . Where are we waiting?
Read (1 Peter 3:19-22) . If you say that Hell is full of souls, what about Christ preaching to the lost souls of Noah's day. Where are they now? BAPTISM! Look at the verse. He gives you the answer of the allegory of the flood. We are beasts riding in the waters of life. You are in pairs. Some are clean and some are unclean.
Read Acts 24:10-16 . Paul was in front of Felix for being a believer in the resurrection. What does Paul say? In the last days, BOTH the righteous and wicked will be raised? Raised where? Resurrected to new life in baptism. We must be here to see this:
Read Revelation 1:7 . How can the wicked generation that pierced Christ be here on Earth to see Christ return. BAPTISM! We are ALL here in the first Resurrection.
Revelation 20:1-6 . This happens when Revelation 1:7 happens. Do we believe God when he says EVERY eye will see? Even Job will see!
Job 19
[SIZE=.75em]25 I know that my redeemer[c][/SIZE] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
It's a paradigm shift. Once you know, you cannot unknow.
Need more?
Job's family was killed. Read Job 2.
3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied.
When a snake sheds its skin, is it the same snake? What was Satan telling God here? The children would be back. Were they? We see this as too harsh apart from the correct view. The truth is that we have looped with our families for 6000 years. You are raising your future parents now if you have kids.
Hebrews 7
9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.
In other words, when Abraham paid the tenth to Melchizedek, Levi was still in his ancestors body. It's a mystery that can be solved. God is long-suffering. He knows what he is doing.
1) Baptism, at its root, symbolizes our immersion into the waters of life. It's a concept from antiquity called Involution and Evolution. We are immersed in the waters so we can rise to new life. You must be born again. This is the Father's work to prepare us and bring us to the His Son and to His Spirit. Most importantly, the Flood of Genesis symbolizes the beasts riding in the ark. Ultimately, the Ark is the Earth.
1 Peter 3
[SIZE=.75em]20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[/SIZE]
2) The cup we carry is for the King. The King is actually doing the work. The Bread is what we share as the body below. Christ is the head above. The Baker bakes the bread (Trials). See Genesis 40 for this concept.
Stop here if you need a simple thread to answer. Use the rest below if you need more clarification. If you don't understand what I am saying, feel free to ask questions. No Ad Hominem please. It is defined like this:
Ad Hominem: An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim). Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting). LINK
_______________________________________________
From here, I will outline why I believe what I believe. You can choose to travel with me as far down the list of verses as you want.
1) Baptism
I will not cover number 2 in a separate outline. Instead, I will incorporate it into this outline.
If you read 1 Peter 3, one of the best verses we have is the comparison of Noah building the Ark and baptism being the mechanism to save us in the water. Here, the waters of baptism are said to save. Although we know the truth behind faith, we may be unaware of the ordinance of Baptism having an actual meaning.
Contradiction: If you believe that the ordinance itself is a symbol, then what is the true meaning? Your conclusion must not create contradiction. As you compare your own view to my view, see which one denies the contradictions.
____________________________________________
To get this, we first need to know what the bread is that we share. The simple answer is the Son of God. He is the Stamp for the clay.
Colossians 1
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things,and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
This is the foundation verse. Next, we move on to who scripture is speaking to and when it is speaking to us.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
_____________________________________________
Scripture continually speaks to the reader as if they are every person who has ever lived. The Bible continually speaks to us as if we will be in the future to receive the blessings outlined. To really get this straight, we need to know who John the Baptist is by comparison to Elijah. We need to know why Ahab was told that the water would be turned off and when it comes back on. 1 Kings 17 is the key.
1 Kings 17
17 Now Elijah the Tishbite, from Tishbe[a] in Gilead, said to Ahab, “As the Lord, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.”
Here, the symbolism of the Dew and Rain is used. Dew represents the droplets of water that comes in the morning. Compare this to Isaiah 26:
19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.
What wrath is he speaking of here?
________________________________________________
Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
11 “I baptize you with[b] water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
When is the coming wrath? This would be the enemy being made the footstool. Today is that day and age. The Day of the Lord has a clear timetable based on the Grand Jubilees and many passages we can easily find. Here is a short list of the best of these sources:
Timing of the Day of the Lord with Witnesses
__________________________________________________
We have established that baptism is a key to water and that the water is symbolized by the flood of Noah. We have further see that a coming wrath will require that the water is used to repent. We also know that you must be born again.
1 Kings 17 still holds a key.
Elijah meets a woman at Zarephath (meaning refinery). She has a dead son. Elijah then takes the Son up stairs, revives his soul, then takes him back do again. What is this symbolizing? Our baptism. We must be born again.
Go back to John the Baptist now. The disciples asked if John was Elijah come to prepare the way. He said no, but he was the one crying in the wilderness and so on. He quoted the prophecy. Jesus was then asked. Jesus said he was Elijah. How does Elijah prepare the way?
In 1 Kings, he shut the water off. What is he doing in the first century? Turning it back on. You must be born again. People were choosing to be baptized as symbolism for being raised again from the dead. In other words, they were coming in faith to live again (resurrection) in the last day.
Here are a few places where you need to consider this by contradictions. Remember what John said to in Matthew 3. They needed to repent to fell the coming wrath. Who was he speaking to? The same brood of vipers that pierced Christ. When would they again see Christ? Before the coming day of wrath.
Revelation 1
7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”[b]
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”[c]
So shall it be! Amen.
Again, who pierced Christ and when will they need to be born again to see this event with their own eyes?
_______________________________
Let's consult another source. Job said he knew the Redeemer. Let's see if he did:
Job 19
25 I know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
---Did Job knew he would be born again? YES!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.[h]”
As we now turn back to the bread of communion, we need to see why Job identifies the root of the problem with the Redeemer. Who is the Redeemer? What is the Bread.
1 Corinthians 10
16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.
Who is the loaf? The Son of God, but we are all slices. Why is Christ the Son of God?
Luke 3
37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch,
the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel,
the son of Kenan, 38 the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.
Who created Adam? The LORD. Genesis 2 is the second creation of the Lord. Genesis 1 is the creation of Elohim. See this link: We are in the image of Heaven.
On either side of a loaf of bread, there is a heel. Who is the Heel and why did Job say the root of the trouble is the Redeemer? The first and last Adam is the answer. 1 Corinthians is the key to all of this.
___________________________________
1 Corinthians 15
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we[g] bear the image of the heavenly man.
Here is the question you ask yourself. If we are slices of this loaf (Son of God), where is the body (Church)? In the water and being baked by the Baker.
I leave you to read Genesis 40 yourself. Don't be a baker. Bear the cup of the king instead.
I have much more to add if you would like. Argue this is if you can, but please use scripture and your own perspective. Don't attack me or the thread. If you can't speak to the subject, don't speak at all. Use the fruits of the Spirit when answering. Galatians 5.
Simple Version
Some of you will want a simple version to answer. Here are a few simple questions to get you reflecting on the Thread topic properly.
Read (Heb 9:28) . Where are we waiting?
Read (1 Peter 3:19-22) . If you say that Hell is full of souls, what about Christ preaching to the lost souls of Noah's day. Where are they now? BAPTISM! Look at the verse. He gives you the answer of the allegory of the flood. We are beasts riding in the waters of life. You are in pairs. Some are clean and some are unclean.
Read Acts 24:10-16 . Paul was in front of Felix for being a believer in the resurrection. What does Paul say? In the last days, BOTH the righteous and wicked will be raised? Raised where? Resurrected to new life in baptism. We must be here to see this:
Read Revelation 1:7 . How can the wicked generation that pierced Christ be here on Earth to see Christ return. BAPTISM! We are ALL here in the first Resurrection.
Revelation 20:1-6 . This happens when Revelation 1:7 happens. Do we believe God when he says EVERY eye will see? Even Job will see!
Job 19
[SIZE=.75em]25 I know that my redeemer[c][/SIZE] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
It's a paradigm shift. Once you know, you cannot unknow.
Need more?
Job's family was killed. Read Job 2.
3 Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.”
4 “Skin for skin!” Satan replied.
When a snake sheds its skin, is it the same snake? What was Satan telling God here? The children would be back. Were they? We see this as too harsh apart from the correct view. The truth is that we have looped with our families for 6000 years. You are raising your future parents now if you have kids.
Hebrews 7
9 One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, 10 because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor.
In other words, when Abraham paid the tenth to Melchizedek, Levi was still in his ancestors body. It's a mystery that can be solved. God is long-suffering. He knows what he is doing.
