What are you trusting in?
- Thread starter Kidron
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Hi Kidron,
When I first began hearing about 'total depravity', it was from Christians who believed in only 'imputed righteousness'. They thought it was impossible they could stop sinning. They had been taught it is impossible to stop sinning. And because they had the idea that total depravity meant it is impossible to stop sinning, they thought God was in agreement with them, and He didn't expect them to stop sinning either.
It doesn't work that way around, though. God is God, and we come into agreement with Him, or, we remain out of fellowship with Him.
Another reason Christians think 'God agrees' they can't stop sinning (and therefore it must be okay to carry on), is that no-one ever told them that on the cross, Jesus destroyed the power of sin. That's why He cried 'It is finished!' This would suggest, also, they don't 'hear' in the New Testament, all the key speakers - Jesus Christ, Paul, Peter and John - declaring not only is it possible to stop sinning, but it is expected. Those who don't make a determined effort Heb 4:11 to let the life of Christ in them reign over their mortal bodies, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Think about this: the Old Testament is full of people whose sins were forgiven. In the light of Hebrews 10:4, how did that happen? God already had a forgiving heart towards mankind, or He would never have given His Son.
The great victory on the cross was the victory over sin. The power of sin being broken was new, and it meant that those who had understood how rightly they should die for their own sins, (under God's wrath) were willing to repent, and to identify with Jesus' in His death on their behalf, for the purpose of receiving His Spirit of Holiness to help them actually resist and overcome all the temptations to sin in their own lives.
Where He displays His healing power,
Death and the curse are known no more,
In Him the tribes of Adam boast,
More blessings than their father lost.
Charles Wesley
I'm genuinely interested to know, Kidron, why you think the gospel you preach is so great, seeing it's so powerless? It's like being told that the brand new limosine delivered to your driveway, is yours only vicariously. You won't be allowed to drive it till after you've died. (Right?)
The problem with that theory is, you won't get to drive it after, if you didn't drive it before.
There is no reason to believe that the God who threw Adam and his wife out of Eden because they had died in sin, is going to let people back into the Garden, who have not demonstrated they have become dead to sin.
The choice that Adam had made when He ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was whether to disobey God's will and command - or not. Jesus makes clear the test for those who want to come after Him bearing His Name, (inheriting His eternal life), is that like Him, we have to obey His Father, and carry out His commands. This perfect symmetry is all through scripture. John 12:24 What you're suggesting is that the seed doesn't need to fall into the ground and die, but nevertheless, it will have fruit 'imputed' to it, and God will taste imputed fruit and know it's the real thing....??? (Romans 6:16) That fruit would be imaginary, as there is no difference between it and the Emperor's New Clothes.
Romans 7:4 '... that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
When I first began hearing about 'total depravity', it was from Christians who believed in only 'imputed righteousness'. They thought it was impossible they could stop sinning. They had been taught it is impossible to stop sinning. And because they had the idea that total depravity meant it is impossible to stop sinning, they thought God was in agreement with them, and He didn't expect them to stop sinning either.
It doesn't work that way around, though. God is God, and we come into agreement with Him, or, we remain out of fellowship with Him.
Another reason Christians think 'God agrees' they can't stop sinning (and therefore it must be okay to carry on), is that no-one ever told them that on the cross, Jesus destroyed the power of sin. That's why He cried 'It is finished!' This would suggest, also, they don't 'hear' in the New Testament, all the key speakers - Jesus Christ, Paul, Peter and John - declaring not only is it possible to stop sinning, but it is expected. Those who don't make a determined effort Heb 4:11 to let the life of Christ in them reign over their mortal bodies, will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Think about this: the Old Testament is full of people whose sins were forgiven. In the light of Hebrews 10:4, how did that happen? God already had a forgiving heart towards mankind, or He would never have given His Son.
The great victory on the cross was the victory over sin. The power of sin being broken was new, and it meant that those who had understood how rightly they should die for their own sins, (under God's wrath) were willing to repent, and to identify with Jesus' in His death on their behalf, for the purpose of receiving His Spirit of Holiness to help them actually resist and overcome all the temptations to sin in their own lives.
Where He displays His healing power,
Death and the curse are known no more,
In Him the tribes of Adam boast,
More blessings than their father lost.
Charles Wesley
I'm genuinely interested to know, Kidron, why you think the gospel you preach is so great, seeing it's so powerless? It's like being told that the brand new limosine delivered to your driveway, is yours only vicariously. You won't be allowed to drive it till after you've died. (Right?)
The problem with that theory is, you won't get to drive it after, if you didn't drive it before.
There is no reason to believe that the God who threw Adam and his wife out of Eden because they had died in sin, is going to let people back into the Garden, who have not demonstrated they have become dead to sin.
The choice that Adam had made when He ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was whether to disobey God's will and command - or not. Jesus makes clear the test for those who want to come after Him bearing His Name, (inheriting His eternal life), is that like Him, we have to obey His Father, and carry out His commands. This perfect symmetry is all through scripture. John 12:24 What you're suggesting is that the seed doesn't need to fall into the ground and die, but nevertheless, it will have fruit 'imputed' to it, and God will taste imputed fruit and know it's the real thing....??? (Romans 6:16) That fruit would be imaginary, as there is no difference between it and the Emperor's New Clothes.
Romans 7:4 '... that you may be married to another -- to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
Hi Dragonfly,
I suggest you research the relationship of "chierographon" and "tetelestai" to ancient practices of debt and repayment.
The chierographon - handwriting - was your handwritten IOU, and was the legal form of a certificate of debt. When it was paid, tetelestai was written across it - your legal proof of the discharge of that debt.
Colossians 2:13-14 ESV
(13) And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
(14) by canceling the record of debt chierographon that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV
(21) For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
John 19:30 ESV
(30) When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," tetelestai and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.''
Our sin was payable by our death. God took our sin, made Jesus to be our sin, and nailed Him/our sin to the cross.
"It is finished" is Jesus' declaration of the discharge of our debt, paid in full by His death.
Now, this is not to day that Jesus' death does not break the power of sin in our lives. But that is a little different.
Jesus' death paid for the sins of all mankind. But it is only when we are baptized into Christ, being baptized into his death, that sin's power is broken for us.
Love in Christ,
Mark
One other thing . . .
This is "all or nothing" thinking . . . which I don't think is a correct representation of what Kidron is saying.
Hi mark s,
Thank you for the exposition of the debt-payment-on-our-behalf side of Christ's death. It was good :).
I didn't mention it because most Christians and even non-Christians know about it. Frequently, the gospel is preached only from this angle. Taking up one's cross every day may be preached by some, but taking up one's cross is an unrealistic option while still in under the power of sin. Being released from the power of sin need not be a separate event if it is preached at the same time as forgiveness and remission of sins through the redemption that is in His blood.
What we 'believe', and therefore the level of freedom which we experience through believing, are inextricably bound up with each other - and the reason Paul says to mark and avoid false teachers, is because people go astray under false doctrine. Sound doctrine directs us towards life in Christ and godliness.
Precisely!!! But if the gospel being preached doesn't mention this, how can it be received with understanding?
The moment a person makes a move towards God through faith in Christ Jesus they become a prey to the enemy. Between the temptations to the flesh, and their unrenewed mind, most Christians experience the conflict of which Paul speaks in Galatians 5:17 - which can be read different ways... that either one has no peace while sinning, or, one finds obedience to walking in the Spirit increasingly difficult, until one addresses mortification of the flesh so as to walk as He walked.
Luke 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
This phrase 'steadfastly set his face' has the idea of 'made his face as hard as flint'. This is the only gospel which
mentions this particular external expression of this internal attitude of Jesus.
Look at the preceding phrase 'when the time was come that he should be received up...' - He had his inner eyes set on the prize. Luke 22:15. Jesus had had a spiritual event which enabled Him to proceed.
Luke 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Our 'mount of transfiguration' ought to include a vision of ultimate eternal reality presented to our inner eyes through the preaching of the whole gospel, by which we are made fully to understand we are going to die because of 'the sin' which entered the world through Adam, bringing death upon all men; and, that God's wrath is upon us because of our condition and our behaviour.
But wait!
There is a Saviour who can deliver us from both fates (bondage to 'the sin' for ever, and, subjection to God's wrath), if we will choose to die in His death on our behalf! This releases us from the power of 'the sin', as well as from the penalty for sins.
We go on with God believing that this new principle of life is at work in us. Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead Eph 3:7.
To partake fully in this dynamic option to become (sons) like Jesus Christ in His life, we have to set our faces as flint to go to our own 'Jerusalem' - the places where the cross presents itself to us repeatedly in the detail of our own lives - and through Him, to accomplish our own decease. Heb 2:9, Romans 6:3, Romans 8:13, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 4:17.
In other words, we have to be have received an anointing for burial, and be experiencing the death of Jesus Christ in our own flesh, before the perfume of spikenard will exude from our lives. (John 12:3, 7. Note John 12:4, 5, 6 in light of 2 Cor 4:3, 4 - There is an association between idolatry and spiritual blindness.) 2 Cor 4:16
Remember, Paul wrote this:
2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost...'
Imputation of righteousness under the Old Covenant was, as you know, a (technically applicable) status under the legal operation of the law of Moses through the sacrifices of animals. We may (as Paul did), use this same phrase under the New Covenant, but, there should be no controversy that the effect of having Christ in us, and, of us being in Christ, should mean our righteousness is not merely an external legal statement.
Why? Because Christ was not righteous merely externally. He was righteous all the way through - from His heart's motives and attitudes to His every thought, there was no sin. Therefore, when Paul writes: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us ... righteousness ...' (1 Cor 1), he is describing an experientially different internal status to us, than that which applied under the Old Covenant. God does this.
It is referred to in different ways by the apostles, but the word 'conscience' arises more than once. What this tells us is, the 'imputed righteousness' of the Old Covenant did not clear consciences.
Whereas, the 'righteousness' we receive in Christ is the confirmation of a clear conscience before God. If one does not have a clear conscience, one cannot claim to be righteous as He is righteous.
Thank you for the exposition of the debt-payment-on-our-behalf side of Christ's death. It was good :).
I didn't mention it because most Christians and even non-Christians know about it. Frequently, the gospel is preached only from this angle. Taking up one's cross every day may be preached by some, but taking up one's cross is an unrealistic option while still in under the power of sin. Being released from the power of sin need not be a separate event if it is preached at the same time as forgiveness and remission of sins through the redemption that is in His blood.
What we 'believe', and therefore the level of freedom which we experience through believing, are inextricably bound up with each other - and the reason Paul says to mark and avoid false teachers, is because people go astray under false doctrine. Sound doctrine directs us towards life in Christ and godliness.
Precisely!!! But if the gospel being preached doesn't mention this, how can it be received with understanding?
The moment a person makes a move towards God through faith in Christ Jesus they become a prey to the enemy. Between the temptations to the flesh, and their unrenewed mind, most Christians experience the conflict of which Paul speaks in Galatians 5:17 - which can be read different ways... that either one has no peace while sinning, or, one finds obedience to walking in the Spirit increasingly difficult, until one addresses mortification of the flesh so as to walk as He walked.
Luke 9:51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
This phrase 'steadfastly set his face' has the idea of 'made his face as hard as flint'. This is the only gospel which
mentions this particular external expression of this internal attitude of Jesus.
Look at the preceding phrase 'when the time was come that he should be received up...' - He had his inner eyes set on the prize. Luke 22:15. Jesus had had a spiritual event which enabled Him to proceed.
Luke 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering. 30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias: 31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Our 'mount of transfiguration' ought to include a vision of ultimate eternal reality presented to our inner eyes through the preaching of the whole gospel, by which we are made fully to understand we are going to die because of 'the sin' which entered the world through Adam, bringing death upon all men; and, that God's wrath is upon us because of our condition and our behaviour.
But wait!
There is a Saviour who can deliver us from both fates (bondage to 'the sin' for ever, and, subjection to God's wrath), if we will choose to die in His death on our behalf! This releases us from the power of 'the sin', as well as from the penalty for sins.
We go on with God believing that this new principle of life is at work in us. Eph 1:19 And what [is] the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead Eph 3:7.
To partake fully in this dynamic option to become (sons) like Jesus Christ in His life, we have to set our faces as flint to go to our own 'Jerusalem' - the places where the cross presents itself to us repeatedly in the detail of our own lives - and through Him, to accomplish our own decease. Heb 2:9, Romans 6:3, Romans 8:13, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 4:17.
In other words, we have to be have received an anointing for burial, and be experiencing the death of Jesus Christ in our own flesh, before the perfume of spikenard will exude from our lives. (John 12:3, 7. Note John 12:4, 5, 6 in light of 2 Cor 4:3, 4 - There is an association between idolatry and spiritual blindness.) 2 Cor 4:16
Remember, Paul wrote this:
2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost...'
Imputation of righteousness under the Old Covenant was, as you know, a (technically applicable) status under the legal operation of the law of Moses through the sacrifices of animals. We may (as Paul did), use this same phrase under the New Covenant, but, there should be no controversy that the effect of having Christ in us, and, of us being in Christ, should mean our righteousness is not merely an external legal statement.
Why? Because Christ was not righteous merely externally. He was righteous all the way through - from His heart's motives and attitudes to His every thought, there was no sin. Therefore, when Paul writes: 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us ... righteousness ...' (1 Cor 1), he is describing an experientially different internal status to us, than that which applied under the Old Covenant. God does this.
It is referred to in different ways by the apostles, but the word 'conscience' arises more than once. What this tells us is, the 'imputed righteousness' of the Old Covenant did not clear consciences.
Whereas, the 'righteousness' we receive in Christ is the confirmation of a clear conscience before God. If one does not have a clear conscience, one cannot claim to be righteous as He is righteous.
Prentis
New Member
Once more, a clear declaration of unbelief in the power of the gospel.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
The gospel has nothing to do with covering us. God does NOT need an excuse or a scheme to forgive us. Have we forgotten that he will have mercy on who he has mercy?
Some men come to the gospel seeking to save themselves... A natural thing to do. But we must come not looking to save our lives but to give our lives. What the gospel truly offers is a reconciliation in power. God actually brings us to where he is, a spiritual place, and we live from the same power Christ does. Then we are just as he is. This is what the gospel offers and calls to.
It all depends on what men are looking for. A way to remain sinful and wretched and yet be excused for it? Or a way out of the mess we are?
For those who seek the second, God offers a cross and new life afterwards. For those seeking the first, the devil offers good lawyers!
I trust in Christ of course , and I was saved outside of the the denominational church.
But I also recognize that [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]the Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans , Methodists, [/background]Orthodox , and Anglicans etc, have in one form or another preserved Christianity and the bible for 2000 years till I came along.
I am grateful.
But I also recognize that [background=rgb(250, 250, 250)]the Catholics, Baptists, Pentecostals, Lutherans , Methodists, [/background]Orthodox , and Anglicans etc, have in one form or another preserved Christianity and the bible for 2000 years till I came along.
I am grateful.
K, I think you should have doubled checked this question yourself. Very very few people are going to heaven. When we accept Christ as our saviour, we inherit ETERNAL LIFE, NOT heaven. We receive that Eternal Life if we die in Christ, and WHEN Christ returns for us. I believe ONLY the Apostles are going to Heaven.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Kidron,
1 Thessalonians 5:
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies,
21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.
Matthew 6:
33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matthew 7:
24 "So then, anyone who hears these words of mine and obeys them is like a wise man who built his house on rock.
Ephesians 4:
29 Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you.
Romans 13:
9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Serve your neighbor as yourself."
10 Obeying does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore obeying is the fulfillment of the law
1 Thessalonians 5:
19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies,
21 but test everything; hold fast what is good.
Matthew 6:
33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matthew 7:
24 "So then, anyone who hears these words of mine and obeys them is like a wise man who built his house on rock.
Ephesians 4:
29 Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you.
Romans 13:
9 The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Serve your neighbor as yourself."
10 Obeying does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore obeying is the fulfillment of the law
WE have a WINNER !!!
K
Stan,
Outside of the teaching that Christ and Satan are brothers, i think what you have posted is perhaps not quite that unusual.
I did want to tell you this..........In John 5:11 you are told that "eternal life is in Christ", so, if you have him, you have eternal life.
Let me ask you a few questions.
In Ephesians 2:6 it says we are right now seated in "heavenly places " "in Christ" next to God
So, which "heaven" is that ?....and who is the WE?
In John 14:2 you are told that Jesus is building you something..............so where is this?, as its happening right now....so, where is Jesus right now?
Do you believe that Jesus is in heaven?
So, if Paul says......."absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"..........is that true?
\
Your bible tells you in 2nd Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10..that "WE" shall all appear before Christ.
So, do you think this will be on Jupiter?
K
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