To go even further in the explanation damnation was brought upon humanity in the fall of humanity by Satan when he tempted Eve.Its what Jesus came to save us from and why he made the sacrifice.God is not condemning anyone you have already been condemned in the fall.Jesus is offering you a way out he is holding his hand out to you saying take it or you will be washed away in the fall and its consequences.
What becomes of our faith if the Genesis account is NOT literal?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
All that stuff is beyond what I can verify but I can short circuit it by referencing Jesus.
Those with a head full of information might ask, how can you verify Jesus? I have come to know him in an experiential way (just as he promised) ie, I believe what he promised and now I have the growing witness in myself.
Whadya think of that?
Bob
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your post.
The Bible, God’s word to us, explains God’s expectations for us and His promises to us. When you face Him, you can ask about all these troubling passages. In the meantime, it should be clear how He expects you to conduct your life.
Did Adam and Eve exist? Yes, of course: there had to be a first man and first woman. They were social mammals, with the same basic instincts of all other social mammals: having selfish desires and thinking the ends to attain them justifies the means. God told them He expected better of those created in His image. They could distinguish themselves from all other social mammals. To that end, He gave them commands and took special care of them.
Disobeying Him was bad, but inevitable. Their real sin was their pathetic excuses, failing to accept personal responsibility, and failing to repent. That is the original lesson, taught to young Hebrew children.
As you prepare to stand in judgement before God, are you not comforted knowing you have a Savior, someone who knows how you done your best to love God and your neighbor, but also knows how your basic inclinations have and will continue to tempt you?
Kindly do not lump me in with the atheists!
Peace.
The Bible, God’s word to us, explains God’s expectations for us and His promises to us. When you face Him, you can ask about all these troubling passages. In the meantime, it should be clear how He expects you to conduct your life.
Did Adam and Eve exist? Yes, of course: there had to be a first man and first woman. They were social mammals, with the same basic instincts of all other social mammals: having selfish desires and thinking the ends to attain them justifies the means. God told them He expected better of those created in His image. They could distinguish themselves from all other social mammals. To that end, He gave them commands and took special care of them.
Disobeying Him was bad, but inevitable. Their real sin was their pathetic excuses, failing to accept personal responsibility, and failing to repent. That is the original lesson, taught to young Hebrew children.
As you prepare to stand in judgement before God, are you not comforted knowing you have a Savior, someone who knows how you done your best to love God and your neighbor, but also knows how your basic inclinations have and will continue to tempt you?
Kindly do not lump me in with the atheists!
Peace.
Believers who question the literal Genesis account agree that humankind is sinful...
If not due to Adam's fall, someone allowed sin to enter.
Adam could be a representative for the situation we find ourselves in.
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I think Jesus can stand on His own without a literal Genesis account.
Some things can stand as symbolic.
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You take away the reason for his sacrifice making Genesis allegory.Not everyone has put all the pieces together and when you do you will understand.Satan is always left out of it when he's a main player.You do understand that Satan and the fallen Angels do not one soul entering heaven its why they did what they did its why you can't ascend to heaven on your own it why Jesus came to save you by making the sacrifice he did.If you don't understand the sacrifice you don't understand the faith.Without Jesus all there is is death and hell.The bible clearly says this but now Genesis has becomes allegory it becomes meaningless Jesus makes a sacrifice for no reason and he's forgiving sins when he doesn't need to.Jesus makes the sacrifice of atonement for original sin and then goes even further being willing to forgive your personal sins also that you accumulate in your life..You are in a fallen state prone to sin it why you can't enter heaven the bible clearly tells you this only Jesus can save you from this.
We have faith in his death and resurrection in the hope of being raised up in Jesus its what we put all our hope and faith in that his sacrifice was acceptable - that God the Father did indeed raise his soul up - and that we to can be raised up in Christ there is no other way to heaven because of the fall of humanity or original sin.If Jesus doesn't raise you up your not going and there is nothing you can do about it you cannot forgive your own sins and raise yourself up.If you don't accept his sacrifice you will not find salvation.
Jesus cannot stand on his own without the literal meaning of Genesis he has no reason to come anymore.
We have faith in his death and resurrection in the hope of being raised up in Jesus its what we put all our hope and faith in that his sacrifice was acceptable - that God the Father did indeed raise his soul up - and that we to can be raised up in Christ there is no other way to heaven because of the fall of humanity or original sin.If Jesus doesn't raise you up your not going and there is nothing you can do about it you cannot forgive your own sins and raise yourself up.If you don't accept his sacrifice you will not find salvation.
Jesus cannot stand on his own without the literal meaning of Genesis he has no reason to come anymore.
What if questions will do that to you. And you can ask what if questions all day long without ever finding an answer. There's a saying I like: "If Jesus didn't rise, nothing else matters; if Jesus did rise, nothing else matters." I think it can apply to all your what if questions as well.
Behold
Well-Known Member
We see where it left you.
However, Dont speak for us, as you are not able to truthfully do that.....is the reality.
This is all happening because Satan an Angel who was assigned to Eden became jealous of Gods love for Adam turning to evil coming up with a plan plunging all of humanity into a fallen state.Unfortunately Eve fell to the temptation. He and his friends are main players the accusers of our brethren in heaven (Jesus vanquished him when he entered heaven he can do it no more Satan once sat before God accusing humanity of every kind of sin and how unworthy of eternal life we are ) and the enemies of salvation they have that name for a reason - did you think they were people.
Who controls this world? John 12:31; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9.
Don’t forget the science that supports Genesis (unwittingly): the discovery of Mt-Eve, and Y-chromosome Adam.
Aka, Eve and Noah.
Believe me, modern science is still in its infancy.
Let’s discuss it…
What about history and archeology? In its infancy?
Who really wrote the books of Moses?
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Hey, Stephen!
What in archeology, specifically, do you think attacks the credibility of the Bible?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of anything.
I would say Moses.
Why?
Hope you have a great day, my cousin.
Some say there is no archeological evidence for the Exodus, or wanderings. (or Moses)
And conflicting evidence for the conquest of the Promised Land.
St. SteVen said:
Who really wrote the books of Moses?
There are theories about multiple writers.
Or at a minimum a compilation of ancient oral traditions and texts.
Some from his father-in-law.
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Regarding the Exodus…
look up the Ipuwer Document
Did you know there’s a pharaoh named “Jacob-Baal”? (Jacob is nothing but Hebrew).
(I could really go on and on.)
Re: the wandering…
At the ancient temple of Karnak (?), which is now in northern Sudan, there’s an inscription that mentions “the nomads of Yahweh”. There are no other peoples at that time, except the Israelites, who worshipped Yahweh!
What kind of evidence would be expected for the 40-year wandering? Candy wrappers? Hehe.
Remember, Jehovah’s spirit even kept their clothes & shoes from wearing out. As in, little would be left behind. (See last sentence in this post. He would try to erase evidence from every Bible event!)
On YouTube, check out archeologist Dr. Titus Kennedy. Awesome information!
Unfortunately, Dr. Kathleen Kenyon, daughter of esteemed Director of the British Museum Sir Frederic Kenyon, had a lot of influence in archeological projects of the Levant, especially Jericho, during the ‘50’s.
I say unfortunately, because her timesframe / chronology of events is off by several hundred years. It has influenced others.
Again, I ask you to Google “Dr. Kennedy Jericho”.
There’s also the Theory of common-descent Evolution…LOL.
There is a current field of study, called “Modern Biblical Criticism”, whose goal is to explain events in the Bible, “without appealing to the supernatural.”
Biblical criticism - Wikipedia
I’m sorry, but you can’t do that! And come up with accurate answers!
If you do, then Jesus is still dead, ie., Christianity is a dead religion.
This is the Devil’s influence: Revelation 12:9
This point causes me a massive amount of cognitive dissonance.
(something most won't admit)
The gospel and the New Testament narrative unravel when these things aren't literal.
- The geologies are meaningless. (or in serious error)
- Who wrote the Books of Moses? (and when)
- If Adam wasn't a literal human then he didn't literally sin.
- If Adam didn't literally sin, then there is no original sin.
- If there is no original sin then being born in Adam's race does not make you a sinner.
- If we are not redeemed from original sin by Christ's payment of the death penalty...
- Then the Atonement was of none effect.
- If the Atonement was of none effect, we are lost in our sin and awaiting judgment of our works.
- We all fall short of the perceived standard (the glory of God) and stand condemned.
- Faith in Christ can't help us, the Atonement is null and void. (as outlined above)
- Where does that leave us?
Alternatively:
- There is anecdotal evidence (and in some cases historical evidence) that faith in Christ can help us.
- And that a renewed relationship with the creator is possible. (assuming we were alienated prior)
But how can this be when church doctrine is a house of cards?
- Is a relationship with the creator of figment of our imagination? (wishful thinking?)
- Might we conjure up our own salvation to quell the fear of the unknown?
It's enough to drive one mad. (as my British friends might say)
I like what some atheists conclude.
Living your life as if there might be a God works better than living your life as if there isn't a God, (just in case?) - LOL
]
(something most won't admit)
The gospel and the New Testament narrative unravel when these things aren't literal.
- The geologies are meaningless. (or in serious error)
- Who wrote the Books of Moses? (and when)
- If Adam wasn't a literal human then he didn't literally sin.
- If Adam didn't literally sin, then there is no original sin.
- If there is no original sin then being born in Adam's race does not make you a sinner.
- If we are not redeemed from original sin by Christ's payment of the death penalty...
- Then the Atonement was of none effect.
- If the Atonement was of none effect, we are lost in our sin and awaiting judgment of our works.
- We all fall short of the perceived standard (the glory of God) and stand condemned.
- Faith in Christ can't help us, the Atonement is null and void. (as outlined above)
- Where does that leave us?
Alternatively:
- There is anecdotal evidence (and in some cases historical evidence) that faith in Christ can help us.
- And that a renewed relationship with the creator is possible. (assuming we were alienated prior)
But how can this be when church doctrine is a house of cards?
- Is a relationship with the creator of figment of our imagination? (wishful thinking?)
- Might we conjure up our own salvation to quell the fear of the unknown?
It's enough to drive one mad. (as my British friends might say)
I like what some atheists conclude.
Living your life as if there might be a God works better than living your life as if there isn't a God, (just in case?) - LOL
]
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
I know I already responded... and I think my responses on page 1 holds up pretty well, but I wanted to say a little more about this point...
Have you ever tried to pin down exactly what Jesus taught? I have... and it turns out that 'the-genealogies-are-meaningless' is part of what Jesus taught.
Jesus (and Paul, and John the Baptist) teach a different, competing theory of heredity. They teach that parentage can be taught by looking at behavior, not genealogies. Abraham's descendants behave like Abraham. Those who are naturally descended from Abraham, but don't behave like Abraham... they're cut off from Israel. Those who aren't naturally Abraham's descendants but have faith like Abraham... they are adopted to Abraham. They become Abraham's through faith.
This seems to be one of the most important points of Jesus' actual teaching... the adoption of the Gentiles... the pruning of unfaithful Israelites. Who's-your-daddy is a matter of belief, and obedience, rather than genealogies.
Thanks for your post. Good points. (readers see post #14 for previous @Wick Stick response) Thanks.
Reminded me of this passage. It seems the Israelites forgot about the Exodus. - LOL
The balance of the passage supports what you wrote.
John 8:33-41 NIV
They answered him,
“We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone.
How can you say that we shall be set free?”
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.
35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.
36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me,
because you have no room for my word.
38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence,
and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[a]”
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[b] do what Abraham did.
40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.
Abraham did not do such things.
41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested.
“The only Father we have is God himself.”
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