What Changed?

[Eternally Grateful]

"Remember, God is perfect, so His Word must also be perfect"
The Four Crucified With Christ

I see a problem in the thing you quoted. they say the following

John 19: 18 -- where him they crucified, and with him, others two on this side and on that side [one], and in the middle Jesus.

John 19: 18 where they crucified Him, and two others with Him, one on either side, and Jesus in the center.

If we look at the interlinear it says the following

and with him two, on this side and on the other side, and in between, now jesus

While yes, the word one is not found, It still states there are just 2. Not four. and shows they are on each side of him, and jesus is inbetween

 

[Joseph77]

Good point.
The problem is solved though, both in that or another page, and by others (here and/or elsewhere) showing the reason why it was 'taken over' one direction,
instead of openly and cleanly as written in Scripture.
Realize that the interlinear may (and does) have errors, guesses, etc , and this is revealed when all Scripture is accounted for - if God Permits.
i.e. God's Word is Perfect - it is men who make the mistakes.
Whenever one or another account seems right or correct, but contradicts any part or word of Scripture, or goes against God's Revealed Plan and Purpose, then it is not to be accepted as is (i.e. perhaps partly right, but not fully).

Tradition has 'colored' so much, for so many centuries, it is required as Jesus says Himself, to give up everything, in order to be His disciple.
This includes giving up tradition, until or except for what is proven true by God's Word, completely in harmony with all of His Word and Plan.

I see a problem in the thing you quoted. they say the following
John 19: 18 where they crucified Him, and two others with Him, one on either side, and Jesus in the center.
If we look at the interlinear it says the following
and with him two, on this side and on the other side, and in between, now jesus
While yes, the word one is not found, It still states there are just 2. Not four. and shows they are on each side of him, and jesus is inbetween

 

[charity]

'Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall,
and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
And they stripped Him, and put on Him a scarlet robe.
And when they had platted a crown of thorns,
they put it upon His head, and a reed in His right hand:
and they bowed the knee before Him,
and mocked Him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
And they spit upon Him, and took the reed, and smote Him on the head.
And after that they had mocked Him,
they took the robe off from Him,
and put His own raiment on Him,
and led Him away to crucify Him.'
(Matthew 27:27-31)

Compare:-

'Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together:
Who hath declared this from ancient time?
Who hath told it from that time?
have not I the LORD?
and there is no God else beside Me;
a just God and a Saviour;
there is none beside Me.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by Myself,
the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength:
even to Him shall men come;
and all that are incensed against Him shall be ashamed.
In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
(Isaiah 45:21-25)

'For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived,
that He might be Lord both of the dead and living.
But why dost thou judge thy brother?
or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?
for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord,
every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.'
(Romans 14:9-12)

 

[DNB]

ok I see

I researched this

Matt has robbers one on each side, Which fulfilled a prophecy he was numbered among the transgressors..

Robber in greek - Theif, robber, Band of thieves pirates, rebels
transgressors - Evil doer, one without law, Wicked

Mark has robbers, Same greek word as matt

Luke uses a different greek word

Criminal in greek, evil doer, Criminal,

So the question, I have is, Why were these two not numbered as with the transgressors in Matt, of which these two would definitely be included with any transgressor or evil doer, as well as the robbers? Why did Math not say 4 instead of 2.

John does not give an account, And matt and luke does not tell us of one who repented..

However, the solder coming to two first then Jesus is a compelling argument Did he go to them first because they were in order? Or because they were still awake and Jesus, Being dead, Was not active?

My answer, I do not think we will know until we get to heaven.. On the one hand, I can see 4. On the other hand, I see 2 transgressors. So I will say, I do not know..But I would tend to lead towards only 2

Thank you for that EG. Yes, I agree with your conclusion, and for the same reasons. There is no definitive answer on the issue, as the details are just not there. But, as I expressed in an earlier post, whether there were 2, 4 or 10 other crosses at Christ's crucifixion, it's an incidental issue. The principles that are intended to be conveyed, as in both Christ's rejection and acceptance by all classes of people, and the doctrine of Faith over Works, have been elucidated sufficiently.

 

[JunChosen]

Thank you for that EG. Yes, I agree with your conclusion, and for the same reasons. There is no definitive answer on the issue, as the details are just not there. But, as I expressed in an earlier post, whether there were 2, 4 or 10 other crosses at Christ's crucifixion, it's an incidental issue. The principles that are intended to be conveyed, as in both Christ's rejection and acceptance by all classes of people, and the doctrine of Faith over Works, have been elucidated sufficiently.

Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak unto them (Mark 4:34).
Therefore, the Gospel message should be seen in almost every page of the Bible. If we cannot see the Gospel it does not mean it's not there.

Defining the malefactors is irrelevant. Ultimately, both are evil doers (sinners)! Reminds me of how we ought to approach Christ like the publican in Luke 11 who cried out: "have mercy on me a sinner."

Is this a coincidence or what? Both accounts of Luke 11 and Luke 23 the miracle of salvation is seen (as I've stated in Post #61) as one of the malefactors also begged Christ: "Lord, remember me when you go into your kingdom."

Are you spiritual?

1 Corinthians 14:37 reads:
"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."

To God Be The Glory

 

[DNB]

Therefore, the Gospel message should be seen in almost every page of the Bible. If we cannot see the Gospel it does not mean it's not there.

Not quite sure what you're alluding to, ...but, let's not be too wild in our interpretations either. Clearly not every passage in the Bible is a parable, only a minute fraction. And when so, they're clearly stated as such. Not quite sure what your point is here?

Is this a coincidence or what? Both accounts of Luke 11 and Luke 23 the miracle of salvation is seen (as I've stated in Post #61) as one of the malefactors also begged Christ: "Lord, remember me when you go into your kingdom."

Let's not be too gratuitous with our exegesis. One can turn any passage that they want into a metaphor or allusion to a Christian principle. Therefore, it should be reserved to attempting to perceive the authorial intent.

Are you spiritual?

Possibly, ...but if so, hopefully more restrained and sober than you?

 

[FollowHim]

Jesus spoke in parables and without a parable He did not speak unto them (Mark 4:34).
Therefore, the Gospel message should be seen in almost every page of the Bible. If we cannot see the Gospel it does not mean it's not there.

Defining the malefactors is irrelevant. Ultimately, both are evil doers (sinners)! Reminds me of how we ought to approach Christ like the publican in Luke 11 who cried out: "have mercy on me a sinner."

Is this a coincidence or what? Both accounts of Luke 11 and Luke 23 the miracle of salvation is seen (as I've stated in Post #61) as one of the malefactors also begged Christ: "Lord, remember me when you go into your kingdom."

Are you spiritual?

1 Corinthians 14:37 reads:
"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord."

To God Be The Glory

Amen.
God's word is eternal, just as Christ is eternal. We forget who the author is and pretend it is just a few words, with one view.

God's name I am. The present tense of existence from eternity to eternity. Within two words, there is depth that we can only begin to grasp. God is the reference point of everything, not just some things. All our experiences, thoughts action must centre on Him. Everything you, see, feel, conceive dwelt in His heart and His intent.
Evil exists so that justice, truth and freedom can come about. To have love you have to have hate, loss and pain.

And all this rolled up in a name. He is the Lord of armies, the Lord of Hosts, amen

 

[FollowHim]

"Remember, God is perfect, so His Word must also be perfect"
The Four Crucified With Christ

I have an interesting question here. God's word is a word of intent rather than exact historical narrative.

So Jesus curses a fig tree. Does it wither instantly or over time, or both?
The point is it withered because it was fruitless and Jesus wanted fruit. It was the symbol of God's people and what happens when He returns.

Some claim they can be thorns and thistles inside as long as they had faith at some point, like a fig tree. Except to Jesus they are dead. Oh that is unreasonable I hear the cry. But friends He is the Lord, fear Him, He is the creator, there is no higher authority, this is not a discussion, this is His intent. That is God's word, perfect to convey His meaning. God bless you

 

[Waiting on him]

Wonderful reply @FollowHim , ty.

" On the cross for 8 hours with nothing else to do, makes one think a little. So when we talk about a quick conversion this is not putting the whole story."

Guess we can toss the "quick conversion" in the trash, ha!
Many good points and, "what if" indeed!

Every action is to display Christ. Looking at this scripture with my simple mind I see a cross road one cursing and the other blessing and Jesus our mediator right there in the middle. This is an illustration of the cross for all of us and what is performed within.

 

[Waiting on him]

5? Why not 7 or 8 or more? The Romans did a lot of mass executions.

Why not an innumerable assembly

 

[prism]

Why not an innumerable assembly

Maybe because of this...
Matthew 27:38 KJV
[38] Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Mark 15:27 KJV
[27] And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

So who knows? Either there were 2, and if you allow for more than 2 there could be 8 or 9 or as you say...innumerable.
Scripture focuses on two (there may have been more) as types of possible reactions to Jesus when confronted with death. Either repentance and faith towards Jesus OR rejection of Him.

 

[Waiting on him]

Maybe because of this...
Matthew 27:38 KJV
[38] Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

Mark 15:27 KJV
[27] And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.

So who knows? Either there were 2, and if you allow for more than 2 there could be 8 or 9 or as you say...innumerable.
Scripture focuses on two (there may have been more) as types of possible reactions to Jesus when confronted with death. Either repentance and faith towards Jesus OR rejection of Him.

He says, take up your cross and follow me, where do you believe He is leading?

 

[prism]

He says, take up your cross and follow me, where do you believe He is leading?

maturity, character, fruitfulness, stronger faith.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Mat 11:28-30)

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:4-8)

But isn't that a different topic?

 

[Waiting on him]

maturity, character, fruitfulness, stronger faith.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. (Mat 11:28-30)

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(2Pe 1:4-8)

But isn't that a different topic?

Sounds like paradise.

 

[prism]

Sounds like paradise.

Almost...
Acts 14:22 (KJV) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[DNB]

Evil exists so that justice, truth and freedom can come about. To have love you have to have hate, loss and pain.

And all this rolled up in a name. He is the Lord of armies, the Lord of Hosts, amen

This sounds like nonsense! Evil, hate, loss, pain, and love, all rolled up in one name, 'I Am'?
Sorry FH, in your exuberance to sound pious and profound, I think that you've crossed into delirium?

 

[FollowHim]

This sounds like nonsense! Evil, hate, loss, pain, and love, all rolled up in one name, 'I Am'?
Sorry FH, in your exuberance to sound pious and profound, I think that you've crossed into delirium?

If you begin to think about what love is, you realise hate is its mirror opposite.
To have love you need to admit the pain of rejection, the destructive action of those given the choice to react positively or negatively is bound with freedom that love represents.

Love is at the core of who God is, it binds the trinity together, works through all His creative works.
Whether people can accept it or not, death is bound to life. You cannot have life without death, death is the ceasing of life. Our whole biology, the creating of cells, which then live, get damaged and finally die, to be replaced with new cells.

Part of the inevitable nature of openness and God giving man love was the cross, was His demonstration of love that ruled and will rule over everything. There is a sense in the garden of Eden, Adam rebellion was expected. God chose to put the tree of knowledge in the garden and tell him that either he would trust God, or gain the knowledge of good and evil and die.

God new the cost of purchasing a people for His own. The only way from the beginning of time was the cross, because in this place He also predestined the elect to be with Him for eternity. God did not create evil, it is the choice of rejection of the Father, but He allowed it, made it possible to be able to have love, freedom and His people.

This is also why I do not believe, other than those who take the mark of the beast, people will be tortured for all of eternity. How could a baby be guilty of sin when they have not reached the age of responsibility and what point does it serve. But to be no more, because no baby can conceive or know the Lord, unless they are born to believers and are cleansed and Holy as Paul describes.

Now all of this comes out of "I am", the eternal, ever present Lord, and His desire to create man as His friend.

 

[DNB]

If you begin to think about what love is, you realise hate is its mirror opposite.
To have love you need to admit the pain of rejection, the destructive action of those given the choice to react positively or negatively is bound with freedom that love represents.

Love is at the core of who God is, it binds the trinity together, works through all His creative works.
Whether people can accept it or not, death is bound to life. You cannot have life without death, death is the ceasing of life. Our whole biology, the creating of cells, which then live, get damaged and finally die, to be replaced with new cells.

Part of the inevitable nature of openness and God giving man love was the cross, was His demonstration of love that ruled and will rule over everything. There is a sense in the garden of Eden, Adam rebellion was expected. God chose to put the tree of knowledge in the garden and tell him that either he would trust God, or gain the knowledge of good and evil and die.

God new the cost of purchasing a people for His own. The only way from the beginning of time was the cross, because in this place He also predestined the elect to be with Him for eternity. God did not create evil, it is the choice of rejection of the Father, but He allowed it, made it possible to be able to have love, freedom and His people.

This is also why I do not believe, other than those who take the mark of the beast, people will be tortured for all of eternity. How could a baby be guilty of sin when they have not reached the age of responsibility and what point does it serve. But to be no more, because no baby can conceive or know the Lord, unless they are born to believers and are cleansed and Holy as Paul describes.

Now all of this comes out of "I am", the eternal, ever present Lord, and His desire to create man as His friend.

You are equating the eternal attributes of God, with the incompatible and diametrically opposed characteristics of good and evil. Man is something else, he is not deity, he may have secular and iniquitous qualities. But when you say 'I Am', and that by using that expression, it is clear that you are talking about God, then you cannot speak of these dichotomies - good and evil, love and hate, joy and pain, obedience and disobedience.
So, by doing so, you clearly undermined your own predication that Jesus is God. Everything that God made was good, and there is no darkness in Him, or else he would not be transcendent and immutable (torn between right and wrong). When God creates or gives live, it does not necessitate corruption, decay and death.

You're getting too mystical. You put too much emphasis on the expression 'I Am'. It simply implies God's aseity, and that He is the one and only Supreme Being and Transcendent. All the rest that you inferred from it is just circumstantial. God could've play out His plan of redemption in 50 different histories and universes. Eden, Abraham, the Law, the cross, were just the manner that God chose, He was not obligated or restricted to allow evil in His universe, in order to reveal His pre-eminent Son. Wisdom was definitely behind this scenario, but you are somehow eternally equating good with evil?

 

[FollowHim]

You are equating the eternal attributes of God, with the incompatible and diametrically opposed characteristics of good and evil. Man is something else, he is not deity, he may have secular and iniquitous qualities. But when you say 'I Am', and that by using that expression, it is clear that you are talking about God, then you cannot speak of these dichotomies - good and evil, love and hate, joy and pain, obedience and disobedience.
So, by doing so, you clearly undermined your own predication that Jesus is God. Everything that God made was good, and there is no darkness in Him, or else he would not be transcendent and immutable (torn between right and wrong). When God creates or gives live, it does not necessitate corruption, decay and death.

You're getting too mystical. You put too much emphasis on the expression 'I Am'. It simply implies God's aseity, and that He is the one and only Supreme Being and Transcendent. All the rest that you inferred from it is just circumstantial. God could've play out His plan of redemption in 50 different histories and universes. Eden, Abraham, the Law, the cross, were just the manner that God chose, He was not obligated or restricted to allow evil in His universe, in order to reveal His pre-eminent Son. Wisdom was definitely behind this scenario, but you are somehow eternally equating good with evil?

It seems in your thinking God being Holy and good cannot have a connection with evil.

In a sense you are right, evil is the absence of God. Darkness is not a thing, it is the absence of light.

God created life and provided the ability to walk away or stay. God created the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the path to death and warned Adam of the path. So God did not create evil but knew the rebellion would happen, the cross was the way through. It was inevitable.

You may want to think of a different reality but this is it. Lostness is a kind of innocence, but knowledge of Christ and walking away is the loss of everything. If the rebellion was complete there would be no cross, no appeal, no resolution.

It is why I fear for those who say sin is not an issue with God. Sin is rebellion, the cause of the divide, and the solution is communion, love, a changed set of priorities with God at the centre.

By putting a sinner in heaven, God is no longer God, and rebellion is just a switch. If this was so Adam would have been forgiven, and we would be born with God in communion. It appears though God's people must choose to become part of the Kingdom, for it to exist. The kingdom is not based on John the Baptist.

 

[Joseph77]

I have an interesting question here. God's word is a word of intent rather than exact historical narrative.
So Jesus curses a fig tree. Does it wither instantly or over time, or both?

It seems to me to be neither interesting, nor helpful, nor accurate. (God's Word is not a word of intent, nor a historical narrative)

Stick with Scripture, and what Scripture says of Scripture, what God Himself Reveals, in His Good Pleasure, as written.