What Changed?

[Eternally Grateful]

Not popular, but interesting, ...or maybe a bit of a stretch to resolve the perceived contradiction?

View attachment 9219

Is, open, but where are the last two in scripture?

 

[DNB]

Is, open, but where are the last two in scripture?

Not sure if I understood your comment, but, it is not explicit in Scripture but surmised. I believe that it all stems from the fact that the Matthew & Mark depict how the two on the cross revile Jesus, but Luke states that one of the criminals believed in his Messianic fulfilment.
So, the argument goes that because one Gospel calls the criminals thieves, and the other malefactors, it implies 4 criminals.
Plus, since most report that the malefactors are crucified each on one side of Jesus. And that the soldiers broke their legs in succession, the criminals first, then Jesus, why did they walk across, or by-pass, Jesus to get to the two criminals first? That is, there must've been two criminals on either side of him.
Reasons like that, maybe more, is how the controversy is qualified?
Not convinced myself entirely, because of the rather detailed account of there only being two other criminals with Jesus, one on each side.
But, the Bible is often vague, and typically only details things on a need-to-know basis (not a comprehensive or exhaustive historical account).

 

[Nancy]

'He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.'
(Rev 2:7)

Hello @Grailhunter,

The Lord Jesus Christ told His disciples that He would be crucified and would rise on the third day (Mark 8:31). With His reference to Jonah, in Matthew 12:39-40 He says that He will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. Acts 2:31 also tells us that His soul (the whole person) was not left in Hell (Hades = the grave).

All men, whether saved or unsaved go to the grave (to Hades = the place of the dead)
No! Hell (Hades=the grave) is not paradise: neither did Christ go to heaven from the cross as you have said. The 'paradise' that is being referred to is that to which the thief refers, 'Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom'. That will happen when Christ returns in His Kingdom and enters upon His reign, for there in the New Jerusalem is the tree of life which was also in the garden of Eden (Revelation 2:7). This is 'the paradise of God' of our Lord's prophetic reply to the thief. Which has a future fulfilment. The words, 'I say unto thee today', being a Hebraism used to give emphasis, and not to indicate that on that day both the Lord and the thief would be in paradise.

Thank you for your fruitful questions.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Wow...how precise and understandable, lol!! Nice reply Chris.

 

[Nancy]

OK, as promised I'm back to add some more details.

So after looking at the various theories out there, I did the best I could to distill them into a single Slide...

The theory starts out with this verse...

John 19:32
"Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him."

The argument is that the soldiers went in consecutive order along a single row.

If that is the case, the Soldiers would have broke the legs of the first two that were Crucified, then after that they would come to Jesus IN THE MIDDLE of the four.

Does that make sense to anyone?

I think in order to make this theory work, the Malefactor that was saved would have had to have been the first one to die in order for this next verse to avoid contradicting...

Mark 15:32
"Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him."

So there you go. Another way of looking at it.

Yes, sure is "another way of looking at it", lol but, this is so not there in the Word IMO...two thieves, malefactors, robbers; all the same. And all 4 Gospels mention only 2... so, I'll stick with the logical straight forward meaning of there being only the 2.

 

[farouk]

Not popular, but interesting, ...or maybe a bit of a stretch to resolve the perceived contradiction?

View attachment 9219

5 does not seem to correspond with the Biblical record, anyway...

 

[farouk]

Yes, sure is "another way of looking at it", lol but, this is so not there in the Word IMO...two thieves, malefactors, robbers; all the same. And all 4 Gospels mention only 2... so, I'll stick with the logical straight forward meaning of there being only the 2.

@Nancy: A safe assumption, indeed...

 

[prism]

Not popular, but interesting, ...or maybe a bit of a stretch to resolve the perceived contradiction?

View attachment 9219

5? Why not 7 or 8 or more? The Romans did a lot of mass executions.

 

[DNB]

5 does not seem to correspond with the Biblical record, anyway...

On the large part no, ...in that I find the 5 cross theory kind of interesting, but overall weak.

 

[DNB]

5? Why not 7 or 8 or more? The Romans did a lot of mass executions.

Agreed, I think the Bible typically just states the immediate, or relevant information, not a comprehensive detailed account. So yes, there's probably countless details left out of all the stories throughout the Bible, which may explain the perceived contradictions or anomalies.
I guess, ultimately, the point is, it's irrelevant three or five crosses. The point is that Jesus was reviled by all walks of life, from the priesthood to the condemned, showing the unwarranted hatred and humiliation that was cast upon him. Plus, he equally appealed to all classes of society, from the educated to the criminally minded. And finally, by his affirmation that the thief will end up in paradise, underscores the doctrine of faith over works.
None of these paramount principles change, depending on the amount of crosses at Golgotha.

 

[prism]

Agreed, I think the Bible typically just states the immediate, or relevant information, not a comprehensive detailed account. So yes, there's probably countless details left out of all the stories throughout the Bible, which may explain the perceived contradictions or anomalies.
I guess, ultimately, the point is, it's irrelevant three or five crosses. The point is that Jesus was reviled by all walks of life, from the priesthood to the condemned, showing the unwarranted hatred and humiliation that was cast upon him. Plus, he equally appealed to all classes of society, from the educated to the criminally minded. And finally, by his affirmation that the thief will end up in paradise, underscores the doctrine of faith over works.
None of these paramount principles change, depending on the amount of crosses at Golgotha.

Traditions run deep, we also make the same mistake with the three Wisemen.

 

[DNB]

Traditions run deep, we also make the same mistake with the three Wisemen.

Yes, tradition, indoctrination, exclusion, etc... all tend to ingrain presuppositions and biases.
Yes, the three wisemen is a great comparison, it's just as perceptibly inconsistent, partial or selective, as the many aspects of the passion account (eg; who carried the cross Jesus, or Simon of Cyrene).

 

[charity]

Thank you Chris, I will be looking forward to what you come up with!

Matthew 27:38-44;
Mark 15:27-32;
Luke 23:32-43.
John 19:18

Hello Nancy,

You have received interesting replies already, and I don't see that there can be anything more that I can add, but I will take a look and see what I can find.

* Passers by were scornfully abusing the Lord as He hung there (Mark 15:29-32; Matthew 27:39-43; 47-49), His chest bearing the strain, making breathing difficult, and speech even more so. He had suffered at the hands of the soldiers, who had placed a platted crown of thorns upon His head, and bowed the knee before Him as though in homage, while hailing Him as 'King of the Jews' in mockery and scorn: spitting at Him and smiting Him upon the head, so that 'His face was marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men' (Isaiah 52:14). They had stripped Him of His clothing and cast lots for it, then sat down and watched His suffering, after placing 'His Accusation' over the head of the Lord Jesus:- 'THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS'.

* The two thieves were led with Him to the cross, they saw His dreadfully marred appearance: they heard the women crying and lamenting Him, and heard the words of prophecy that He spoke in response to them, (Luke 23:28-31):-

'But Jesus turning unto them said,
Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say,
Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
For if they do these things in a green tree (i.e., the living word = the Lord Himself),
what shall be done in the dry?' (i.e., the nation)

* They heard Him when nailed to the wooden stake, and lifted up, say, "Father forgive them; for they know not what they do". They heard Him cry out, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" They heard the taunts of the soldiers and of the crowd, who challenged Him to come down off the cross, if He be the Christ, the chosen of God. One of the thieves themselves saying, "If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us" , Yet the other rebuked him, and said, 'Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this Man hath done nothing amiss".

* Then those words of faith are spoken by the thief, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom"

* @Nancy, this thief, acknowledges the Lordship of Jesus, He acknowledges the truth of the inscription above His head, that He was indeed the King, and that He would yet come into His Kingdom: and in doing so, also acknowledged the resurrection from the dead; for only in resurrection could He come into His kingdom. 'Praise God!'

* I cannot answer your question, Nancy, but I have been blessed by reading through these accounts, and I thank you for it.

With love to you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Joseph77]

And all 4 Gospels mention only 2...

"Remember, God is perfect, so His Word must also be perfect"
The Four Crucified With Christ

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not sure if I understood your comment, but, it is not explicit in Scripture but surmised. I believe that it all stems from the fact that the Matthew & Mark depict how the two on the cross revile Jesus, but Luke states that one of the criminals believed in his Messianic fulfilment.
So, the argument goes that because one Gospel calls the criminals thieves, and the other malefactors, it implies 4 criminals.
Plus, since most report that the malefactors are crucified each on one side of Jesus. And that the soldiers broke their legs in succession, the criminals first, then Jesus, why did they walk across, or by-pass, Jesus to get to the two criminals first? That is, there must've been two criminals on either side of him.
Reasons like that, maybe more, is how the controversy is qualified?
Not convinced myself entirely, because of the rather detailed account of there only being two other criminals with Jesus, one on each side.
But, the Bible is often vague, and typically only details things on a need-to-know basis (not a comprehensive or exhaustive historical account).

ok I see

I researched this

Matt has robbers one on each side, Which fulfilled a prophecy he was numbered among the transgressors..

Robber in greek - Theif, robber, Band of thieves pirates, rebels
transgressors - Evil doer, one without law, Wicked

Mark has robbers, Same greek word as matt

Luke uses a different greek word

Criminal in greek, evil doer, Criminal,

So the question, I have is, Why were these two not numbered as with the transgressors in Matt, of which these two would definitely be included with any transgressor or evil doer, as well as the robbers? Why did Math not say 4 instead of 2.

John does not give an account, And matt and luke does not tell us of one who repented..

However, the solder coming to two first then Jesus is a compelling argument Did he go to them first because they were in order? Or because they were still awake and Jesus, Being dead, Was not active?

My answer, I do not think we will know until we get to heaven.. On the one hand, I can see 4. On the other hand, I see 2 transgressors. So I will say, I do not know..But I would tend to lead towards only 2

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, sure is "another way of looking at it", lol but, this is so not there in the Word IMO...two thieves, malefactors, robbers; all the same. And all 4 Gospels mention only 2... so, I'll stick with the logical straight forward meaning of there being only the 2.

If I was pushed to give an answer, this would be mine also.. Based on what I said above

 

[bbyrd009]

"Remember, God is perfect, so His Word must also be perfect"
The Four Crucified With Christ

interesting!

 

[Nancy]

"Remember, God is perfect, so His Word must also be perfect"
The Four Crucified With Christ

Interesting read Joseph, not convinced but, I'll go over it again later.

 

[Nancy]

Matthew 27:38-44;
Mark 15:27-32;
Luke 23:32-43.
John 19:18

Hello Nancy,

You have received interesting replies already, and I don't see that there can be anything more that I can add, but I will take a look and see what I can find.

* Passers by were scornfully abusing the Lord as He hung there (Mark 15:29-32; Matthew 27:39-43; 47-49), His chest bearing the strain, making breathing difficult, and speech even more so. He had suffering at the hands of the soldiers, who had placed a platted crown of thorns upon His head, and bowed the knee before Him as though in homage, while hailing Him as 'King of the Jews' in mockery and scorn: spitting at Him and smiting Him upon the head, so that 'His face was marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men' (Isaiah 52:14). They had stripped Him of His clothing and cast lots for it, then sat down and watched His suffering, after placing 'His Accusation' over the head of the Lord Jesus:- 'THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS'.

* The two thieves were led with Him to the cross, they saw His dreadfully marred appearance: they heard the women crying and lamenting Him, and heard the words of prophecy that He spoke in response to them, (Luke 23:28-31):-

'But Jesus turning unto them said,
Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say,
Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
For if they do these things in a green tree (i.e., the living word = the Lord Himself),
what shall be done in the dry?' (i.e., the nation)

* They heard Him when nailed to the wooden stake, and lifted up, say, "Father forgive them; for they know not what they do". They heard Him cry out, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" They heard the taunts of the soldiers and of the crowd, who challenged Him to come down off the cross, if He be the Christ, the chosen of God. One of the thieves themselves saying, "If Thou be Christ, save Thyself and us" , Yet the other rebuked him, and said, 'Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this Man hath done nothing amiss".

* Then those words of faith are spoken by the thief, "Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom"

* @Nancy, this thief, acknowledges the Lordship of Jesus, He acknowledges the truth of the inscription above His head, that He was indeed the King, and that He would yet come into His Kingdom: and in doing so, also acknowledged the resurrection from the dead; for only in resurrection could He come into His kingdom. 'Praise God!'

* I cannot answer your question, Nancy, but I have been blessed by reading through these accounts, and I thank you for it.

With love to you
In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

Hi Chris,
Yes, thee are many interesting posts about this. I just finished reading Josephs article on thee being "4" that wee crucified with Jesus. The article is interesting but, why would God hide that fact? Just seems so straight forward there were "2". Either way, it really does not matter that I can see if there were 2 or 4...what difference could it make anyhow, lol.
Thank you for your input Chris!

 

[Joseph77]

Interesting read Joseph, not convinced but, I'll go over it again later.

re "not convinced"
GOOD - THe Bereans were "not convinced" UNTIL they went "over it again later" - TESTING EVERY MESSAGE before accepting it.... before being convinced, thus the 'model' of what is necessary, as written, as spoken, as revealed by God.....

If this was accomplishd in the first few centuries by all in the assembly, the "many anti-christs" among them would not have gained control, would not have broken up the assemblies (as Paul said the wolves would do as soon as the apostles were gone),
and would not have gained power to 'create' 'new' assemblies with power to deceive.

This is not as if to 'accept' it because others do, even two or three or ten thousand witnesses, no. There are billions of witnesses, to false gospels, and people accept those daily, even on this forum.

Everything must be tested and proven first, before accepting it, that is....

Those things and gospels and teachings that are false continue more and more every day, daily, far outnumbering the truth,

so let everyone be aware, and test all things, remaining in prayer always, trusting the Heavenly Father to Reveal what is true and right, in line with all of His Word, as He Says.

 

[Joseph77]

The article is interesting but, why would God hide that fact?

p.s. I thought you were referring to the article on the execution of Jesus by the essenes... but this is good here also...

What is hidden? It will be revealed. Not to the world though. Not to the powers of the religions or the governments or the medicals or the politics - no, those are of in and of the world. The truth is not found in them, nor revealed to them, nor taught by them.