WHAT????? CHURCH FATHERS WERE PRETRIB ???

[covenantee]

Was Jesus literally at the physical temple below when he stated "Destroy This Temple"?

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

He was literally physically at the temple in Matthew 24:1, so Matthew 24:1 was literally physically fulfilled.

Contrary to your claim that none of Matthew 24 was fulfilled.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 thes 4
Rev 14:14
Mat 24
Mat 25.
All speak of Jesus gathering his elect.

Jesus taught 2 separate comings in mat 24

Nice that you listed some verses.

How about posting scripture instead?

This is how it's done:

YOU make a statement.
YOU post the scripture that supports that statement.

For instance,,,you LISTED Matthew 24 and Matthew 25.

HOW does any verse in 24 or 25 prove that Jesus is coming back TWO TIMES?

Ditto for 1 Thessalonians 4.....

Please post scripture.

 

[Nancy]

How so? What is it about my thinking, my understanding, my character, whatever, that makes me escapist, or that has me to believe an escapist doctrine?

I don't understand your thinking here. I mean, I realize how someone could hold to a pre-trib view because they are afraid of the beast. I also realize how someone could hold to post-trib timing because they crave the glory of war waged against the armies of the antichrist. I had a friend who thought that way.

So there are ditches on either side, for sure, but what about the doctrine itself is escapist? Don't we simply receive what we believe He teaches regardless of what it is?

Much love!

Hi Marks,
What you wrote here: "...hold to post-trib timing because they crave the glory of war..."...?? What exactly do you mean by that comment?? I HATE war but it is a necessary evil in times such as the end is concerned. Take glory from killing others?? Mmm, nah. Not even close.
The escapist part is getting plucked out of any and all tribulation-escape the bad things coming on the world. But either way, we should be VERY prepared, regardless.

 

[Truth7t7]

He was literally physically at the temple in Matthew 24:1, so Matthew 24:1 was literally physically fulfilled.

Contrary to your claim that none of Matthew 24 was fulfilled.

I Disagree

The temple to be destroyed was the Lord's body in a symbolic interpretation

 

[rebuilder 454]

Nice that you listed some verses.

How about posting scripture instead?

This is how it's done:

YOU make a statement.
YOU post the scripture that supports that statement.

For instance,,,you LISTED Matthew 24 and Matthew 25.

HOW does any verse in 24 or 25 prove that Jesus is coming back TWO TIMES?

Ditto for 1 Thessalonians 4.....

Please post scripture.

Mat 24.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
( Jesus comes back AFTER the gt in power, which is Rev 19.)

Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Before the flood, one taken, the other left.
( Jesus depicts 2 comings. One after the gt, the other "before the flood")

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped

A gathering during the gt that is neither 1 thes 4, or the second coming of rev 19.

That is 3 comings with gatherings.

 

[marks]

What you wrote here: "...hold to post-trib timing because they crave the glory of war..."...?? What exactly do you mean by that comment??

There was a friend of mine, he got a hold of some fellow's teaching, about how he would be part of the armies of the Lord fighting against the armies of the antichrist helping defeat them until Jesus comes. You should have seen the excitement in his face as he described this to me. He actively looked forward to it, and post trib was intrinsic to his view.

Yes, there are many reasons people hold to their views. And it's not unusual that the reason is self affirming in some way.

The escapist part is getting plucked out of any and all tribulation-escape the bad things coming on the world.

I'm certain you know that everyone experiences tribulations in their lives. No one escapes. But not everyone will be around at that time.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But either way, we should be VERY prepared, regardless.

How do you become prepared?

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

I Disagree

The temple to be destroyed was the Lord's body in a symbolic interpretation

What is the symbolic interpretation of Jesus' disciples, who were literally physically there with Him?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Hi Marks,
What you wrote here: "...hold to post-trib timing because they crave the glory of war..."...?? What exactly do you mean by that comment?? I HATE war but it is a necessary evil in times such as the end is concerned. Take glory from killing others?? Mmm, nah. Not even close.
The escapist part is getting plucked out of any and all tribulation-escape the bad things coming on the world. But either way, we should be VERY prepared, regardless.

Jesus told the ones to be taken to be ready.

Conversely those not ready were told to "go and buy".
The "readiness" is to be ready AT HIS COMING.

Anyone wanting to miss the rapture has a very easy job. That job would be to neglect their walk and simply operate as a carnal believer.

There is no "getting ready to stay".
Jesus , in the 7 letters to the 7 churches, told those carnal ones that they has lost their first love. The REMEDY he gave them was to "go and buy".
Then Jesus , as an escapist, told them if they would keep his word, they would escape the GT.
The foolish virgins, who were also carnal believers , were also told to "go and buy".
That is twice that Jesus framed not being ready as carnal believers.

The rapture is Jesus coming for His bride.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the GT.

In fact the bible says the AC kills all refusing the mark, and that every man, woman and child on earth takes it, that are not written in the book.

Rev13

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

....so there is no enduring the gt.
That is a made up doctrine that 100% goes against the bible.
The BIBLE teaches:
1) escape into the rapture pretrib.
2) either take the mark or die if you want to stay.

 

[GodsGrace]

Mat 24.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
( Jesus comes back AFTER the gt in power, which is Rev 19.)

Jesus is speaking in Matthew 24.
I don't use Revelation for doctrine because much of it is not literal.

Matthew 24:29 states that AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened.
and THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven......for they shall see the Son of Man coming.


Please explain how Jesus comes AFTER the tribulation.
You seem to believe He comes before it.

Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Before the flood, one taken, the other left.
( Jesus depicts 2 comings. One after the gt, the other "before the flood")

Those in the time of Noah were living their normal everyday lives and not expecting anything to happen.
But the flood happened.
At THIS TIME they realized that they were in trouble due to the flood.

Please note
Matthew 24:35-36
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Jesus is speaking about the END TIMES when earth will pass away....
but no one knows the hour.

Jesus is not speaking about a tribulation period,
but the end of the world.
Jesus comes back at the end of the world.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped

I have no idea what Rev 14 means.
It SOUNDS like it's time to reap....take in the harvest.
It SOUNDS like the end of the world - harvest time.
And Jesus is coming to judge.
Jesus will judge at the end of the world.

Matthew 25:31
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

2 Timothy 4:1
1I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:

2 Peter 3:7
7But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Revelation 22:12
12“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

A gathering during the gt that is neither 1 thes 4, or the second coming of rev 19.

That is 3 comings with gatherings.

So you say Jesus comes back THREE times?

I only see one.

Let's try your verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Those who are dead when Jesus returns will be caught up first.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first.


17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Then those who are living will be caught up together with those that had died and will meet Jesus.


Again, the above speaks of the gathering of everyone at the end.
One coming of the Lord.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus is speaking in Matthew 24.
I don't use Revelation for doctrine because much of it is not literal.

Matthew 24:29 states that AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened.
and THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven......for they shall see the Son of Man coming.


Please explain how Jesus comes AFTER the tribulation.
You seem to believe He comes before it.

Those in the time of Noah were living their normal everyday lives and not expecting anything to happen.
But the flood happened.
At THIS TIME they realized that they were in trouble due to the flood.

Please note
Matthew 24:35-36
35 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Jesus is speaking about the END TIMES when earth will pass away....
but no one knows the hour.

Jesus is not speaking about a tribulation period,
but the end of the world.
Jesus comes back at the end of the world.
I have no idea what Rev 14 means.
It SOUNDS like it's time to reap....take in the harvest.
It SOUNDS like the end of the world - harvest time.
And Jesus is coming to judge.
Jesus will judge at the end of the world.

Matthew 25:31
31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

2 Timothy 4:1
1I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:

2 Peter 3:7
7But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Revelation 22:12
12“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.

So you say Jesus comes back THREE times?

I only see one.

Let's try your verse:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

Those who are dead when Jesus returns will be caught up first.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Jesus will descend from heaven and the dead in Christ will rise first.


17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Then those who are living will be caught up together with those that had died and will meet Jesus.


Again, the above speaks of the gathering of everyone at the end.
One coming of the Lord.

1) the setting for the rapture of the bride is normal life.
2) the setting after the GT is chaos and half the planet destroyed ( zero normal life).
3) Jesus said "before the flood one will be taken and one left behind "
(Not after the flood...not after Sodom burned)
4) The GT is Jacob's trouble. A time of 7 years according to Daniel.
5) postribs, as far as I can tell, do not know that , nor do they seem to understand the purpose of tge GT, or who the GT is directed at.
6) there also seems to be little understanding of romans 9-11 and the 2 wives. ( Jew and Gentile wives)

 

[GodsGrace]

1) the setting for the rapture of the bride is normal life.
2) the setting after the GT is chaos and half the planet destroyed ( zero normal life).

My parents got married during a war.
Life goes on in some manner even in war.
We don't really know how great the tribulation will be.
We now have AI that could end life as we know if with NO chaos.

We shouldn't add to scripture or make a movie out of it.
We can only go by what Jesus states.

There is nowhere in the NT where Jesus hints that He'll be coming back two different times.
He's coming back at the end of the world..

3) Jesus said "before the flood one will be taken and one left behind "
(Not after the flood...not after Sodom burned)

One will be taken....
how's this for your consideration?

In Matthew 24 and 25 Jesus is speaking about two different times:
1. The end
2. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD

One will be taken and one will be left behind.....
Some theologians believe this might be referring to 70AD when Roman soldiers come for a person and take him away and leave the other one. So it's actually the one left that is the lucky one.

This is surmized and cannot be proven, but is a logical explanation.
All of scripture must be harmonized.
THIS is the ONLY verse that sounds like the rapture may be true...
but it is not supported anywhere else.

4) The GT is Jacob's trouble. A time of 7 years according to Daniel.
5) postribs, as far as I can tell, do not know that , nor do they seem to understand the purpose of tge GT, or who the GT is directed at.

What IS the purpose of the GT?
Who is it aimed at?

6) there also seems to be little understanding of romans 9-11 and the 2 wives. ( Jew and Gentile wives)

I understand Romans 9 pretty well.
What about the two wives?

 

[rebuilder 454]

My parents got married during a war.
Life goes on in some manner even in war.
We don't really know how great the tribulation will be.
We now have AI that could end life as we know if with NO chaos.

We shouldn't add to scripture or make a movie out of it.
We can only go by what Jesus states.

There is nowhere in the NT where Jesus hints that He'll be coming back two different times.
He's coming back at the end of the world..

One will be taken....
how's this for your consideration?

In Matthew 24 and 25 Jesus is speaking about two different times:
1. The end
2. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD

One will be taken and one will be left behind.....
Some theologians believe this might be referring to 70AD when Roman soldiers come for a person and take him away and leave the other one. So it's actually the one left that is the lucky one.

This is surmized and cannot be proven, but is a logical explanation.
All of scripture must be harmonized.
THIS is the ONLY verse that sounds like the rapture may be true...
but it is not supported anywhere else.

What IS the purpose of the GT?
Who is it aimed at?

I understand Romans 9 pretty well.
What about the two wives?

I think you need to read what happens during the GT.
You are portraying it as a cake walk, when Jesus framed it as horrific and never to be anything like it again.
NO MAN MIGHT BUY OR SELL UNLESS HE HAS THE MARK.
ALL TAKE THE MARK.
ALL REFUSING IT ARE KILLED.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think you need to read what happens during the GT.
You are portraying it as a cake walk, when Jesus framed it as horrific and never to be anything like it again.
NO MAN MIGHT BUY OR SELL UNLESS HE HAS THE MARK.
ALL TAKE THE MARK.
ALL REFUSING IT ARE KILLED.

A Cake Walk?
I don't think LIFE is a cake walk, let alone a war situation.
This remark was not necessary.

No man could buy or sell without the mark.
This is Revelation.

Could we stay within the NT that is historical?
That is literal?

Some of Revelation might be prophetic - not denying this.
But we do not base DOCTRINE on verses in Revelation UNLESS the teaching is also found elsewhere.
For instance Rev 3:20 is one of my favorite verses,,,,but the idea is all over the NT.

I really cannot find the return of Jesus being twofold in any NT scripture.
1 Thess 4 is clearly Jesus appearing at the end of the world.

What I'd like to see is CLEAR scripture stating that Jesus is coming back twice....
not necessarily in those exact words.

And do you realize that this is a new teaching from just, I think, the 1800's?
I can't think of any church father that believed in a rapture.....

Those that wrote of the rapture meant the END rapture when the dead will be taken up with those living...
1 Thes.

Do you know of any church father that believed in the rapture?
Sorry - I haven't real every post.

 

[Nancy]

There was a friend of mine, he got a hold of some fellow's teaching, about how he would be part of the armies of the Lord fighting against the armies of the antichrist helping defeat them until Jesus comes. You should have seen the excitement in his face as he described this to me. He actively looked forward to it, and post trib was intrinsic to his view.

Yes, there are many reasons people hold to their views. And it's not unusual that the reason is self affirming in some way.


I'm certain you know that everyone experiences tribulations in their lives. No one escapes. But not everyone will be around at that time.

Much love!

Ahh, yes, I can see that kind of zeal taking hold of many, those who want to "force" Christ to hurry up, as if, lol.
And for certain, we do all have many tribulations throughout our life especially these days. And of course, not everyone will be around during the things that will be coming in this world...ON this world.

 

[Nancy]

How do you become prepared?

Much love!

Keep our faith as strong as possible,

"Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken."

And there will be saved people there at that time.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

A Cake Walk?
I don't think LIFE is a cake walk, let alone a war situation.
This remark was not necessary.

No man could buy or sell without the mark.
This is Revelation.

Could we stay within the NT that is historical?
That is literal?

Some of Revelation might be prophetic - not denying this.
But we do not base DOCTRINE on verses in Revelation UNLESS the teaching is also found elsewhere.
For instance Rev 3:20 is one of my favorite verses,,,,but the idea is all over the NT.

I really cannot find the return of Jesus being twofold in any NT scripture.
1 Thess 4 is clearly Jesus appearing at the end of the world.

What I'd like to see is CLEAR scripture stating that Jesus is coming back twice....
not necessarily in those exact words.

And do you realize that this is a new teaching from just, I think, the 1800's?
I can't think of any church father that believed in a rapture.....

Those that wrote of the rapture meant the END rapture when the dead will be taken up with those living...
1 Thes.

Do you know of any church father that believed in the rapture?
Sorry - I haven't real every post.

One may ask are the Saints under attack nowadays and by whom ?
Socialist clearly have gods that they idolise ! it's called the works of Man !

A fool mate demanded to me that he will believe in Jesus when he sees him in the flesh ! well well Bible says about people who have not seen but believed are more worthy than they who seen him in the flesh !

Now no one truly knew Jesus was 100% the Christ untill he went to Heaven in fact ! but for some people who had great faith that he was, but Jesus said to Peter that he would denigh him 3 times before the cock crowed. so even Peter was not 100% ?

Now Nathaniel knew who Jesus was because he was worthy of Israel for a fact !
as Jesus said of him ! and also said what Nathaniel would see ! now that's a Key point ! that every one should understand, why Nathaniel would see in fact ! it's fantastic !

Salvation ? will come at the end of this world ? for this world is full of deceptions and delusions !

The Saints will overcome this world ! or is it that they may ?

If people are seeking a person to rule over and dominate over everyone ? I can not see such being worthy of Salvation of Souls at all ! for such has to be won in the Holy Spirit !
It's the Holy spirit that is Christ Jesus ! as the two are as one ! that's why Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omga ! and is Emmanuel, God with us !

He is Emmanuel because we who abide in him have him within, that's who is called the Body of Christ Jesus as he is the Head their of ! the ones who are clearly Born again !

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Was Jesus literally at the physical temple below when he stated "Destroy This Temple"?

John 2:19-22KJV
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

No, but He was literally at the physical temple when He was speaking in Matthew 24:1-2. The context of John 2:19-22 is completely different from the context of Matthew 24:1-2. That is obvious. Yet, you still can't see it.

 

[JLB]

Postribbers will be sad to know that all the years they propped up a false hope that Darby started the pretrib rapture doctrine

Nobody cares about he said she said…


Let’s examine scripture.

Let’s examine what Jesus taught His apostles.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occurs at the coming of the Lord.


Do you believe the Second Coming of Christ is before the tribulation or after?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nice that you listed some verses.

How about posting scripture instead?

This is how it's done:

YOU make a statement.
YOU post the scripture that supports that statement.

For instance,,,you LISTED Matthew 24 and Matthew 25.

HOW does any verse in 24 or 25 prove that Jesus is coming back TWO TIMES?

Ditto for 1 Thessalonians 4.....

Please post scripture.

He never does that. He thinks that just listing some chapters and verses without showing the text and making vague claims is enough to prove that his doctrine is true. He has never made a coherent argument using scripture to back up his claims and I don't believe he ever will.