What is dogma?

[theefaith]

Yes, but nothing new after that. No papal infallibility, no Mariology, no intercession of the saints, no purgatory nor indulgences, no assumption into heaven nor immaculate conception, no rosary, ...

Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 Peter the apostles and their successors have authority to bind on earth

 

[Philip James]

But, this was not your point as much, I believe? But merely that there are practices within certain Churches that are permissible, but are not binding on the whole congregation, community, or Christendom, that may have been handed down by tradition?

HI DNB,

Yes, that was my point. And after 2000 years, there is a plethora of devotions, practices, missions, communities, rules.. yet all in unity of the one Faith that we received from the apostles.

I think its important to recognize the distinction. In fact one of the responsibilities of our bishops is to investigate and test these things to ensure they contain nothing contrary to the deposit of Faith that was everywhere received wherever the Apostles planted the Church.

what do I mean by apostle? The generic meaning of the term is 'one who is sent' if I recall correctly.. so in that sense all Christians are apostles to the world. Indeed the word 'Mass', that we use for our celebration of the Eucharist comes from the dismissal, wherein we are 'sent' to bring the Love of Christ that we have just shared in, to all those whom we meet..

But when I speak of the Apostolic tradition or the Apostles of the Church, I am referring to those through whom Jesus established His Church. The original 12 and Matthias and finally Paul (the last of the Apostles).

I believe you asked earlier about Apostles today, and no.. there are none, neither will there be another before Christ returns in glory.

The original 12 were all chosen personally by Christ, trained and ordained by Him to build govern and tend His Church.
It is these to whom He was referring when he told the priests and levites that authority over the vineyard would be taken from them and given to others..

It is these to whom Jesus gave His authority to 'bind and loose', to whom He said ' who's sins you forgive they are forgiven, whos you retain they are retained, and specifically to Peter, gave they keys to the Kingdom...

These passages (and others along these lines) make it clear that the Apostles had executive, legislative and judicial authority over the Church. This authority is clearly shown in the Council of Jerusalem and its decision which was binding on the whole Church everywhere.

The choice and ordination of Matthias, demonstrates that the Apostles had the authority to ordain others (through the laying on of hands) with the same authority that they had received from Jesus. Matthias is the first such to receive an office (Bishopric!) through ordination by those with the authority to give it. He is counted an Apostle because He takes Judas' share in the ministry and because He had been there as a witness from the very beginning...

Paul, like the 12, is also personally chosen and ordained by Jesus. This was so extraordinary that He had some difficulty being accepted as an Apostle until Peter and John confirm that He is indeed one of them....

The example of Titus and Crete clearly shows how the apostles ordained bishops over a particular Church with a certain territory and that the bishops also have the authority to ordain others..

In every apostolic Church established by the Apostles, you find the Tradition, that each particular territory is governed by its duly ordained Bishop, and that these in communion with the bishops in other territories, govern the One Church spread throughout the world.

Further we find that if a Bishopric is empty, a replacement must be ordained by other legitimately ordained Bishops (just as Matthias is ordained by the Apostles!)

Nowhere, do we find a community established by an Apostle that has any other means of either receiving or giving authority to govern within the Church.

That this Sacrament is practiced everywhere by the whole Church, is evidence that it is indeed the Tradition of the Apostles, as are all the 7 Sacraments of the Church.

Peace!

 

[DNB]

Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 Peter the apostles and their successors have authority to bind on earth

No misquotes allowed!

 

[DNB]

HI DNB,

Yes, that was my point. And after 2000 years, there is a plethora of devotions, practices, missions, communities, rules.. yet all in unity of the one Faith that we received from the apostles.

I think its important to recognize the distinction. In fact one of the responsibilities of our bishops is to investigate and test these things to ensure they contain nothing contrary to the deposit of Faith that was everywhere received wherever the Apostles planted the Church.

what do I mean by apostle? The generic meaning of the term is 'one who is sent' if I recall correctly.. so in that sense all Christians are apostles to the world. Indeed the word 'Mass', that we use for our celebration of the Eucharist comes from the dismissal, wherein we are 'sent' to bring the Love of Christ that we have just shared in, to all those whom we meet..

But when I speak of the Apostolic tradition or the Apostles of the Church, I am referring to those through whom Jesus established His Church. The original 12 and Matthias and finally Paul (the last of the Apostles).

I believe you asked earlier about Apostles today, and no.. there are none, neither will there be another before Christ returns in glory.

The original 12 were all chosen personally by Christ, trained and ordained by Him to build govern and tend His Church.
It is these to whom He was referring when he told the priests and levites that authority over the vineyard would be taken from them and given to others..

It is these to whom Jesus gave His authority to 'bind and loose', to whom He said ' who's sins you forgive they are forgiven, whos you retain they are retained, and specifically to Peter, gave they keys to the Kingdom...

These passages (and others along these lines) make it clear that the Apostles had executive, legislative and judicial authority over the Church. This authority is clearly shown in the Council of Jerusalem and its decision which was binding on the whole Church everywhere.

The choice and ordination of Matthias, demonstrates that the Apostles had the authority to ordain others (through the laying on of hands) with the same authority that they had received from Jesus. Matthias is the first such to receive an office (Bishopric!) through ordination by those with the authority to give it. He is counted an Apostle because He takes Judas' share in the ministry and because He had been there as a witness from the very beginning...

Paul, like the 12, is also personally chosen and ordained by Jesus. This was so extraordinary that He had some difficulty being accepted as an Apostle until Peter and John confirm that He is indeed one of them....

The example of Titus and Crete clearly shows how the apostles ordained bishops over a particular Church with a certain territory and that the bishops also have the authority to ordain others..

In every apostolic Church established by the Apostles, you find the Tradition, that each particular territory is governed by its duly ordained Bishop, and that these in communion with the bishops in other territories, govern the One Church spread throughout the world.

Further we find that if a Bishopric is empty, a replacement must be ordained by other legitimately ordained Bishops (just as Matthias is ordained by the Apostles!)

Nowhere, do we find a community established by an Apostle that has any other means of either receiving or giving authority to govern within the Church.

That this Sacrament is practiced everywhere by the whole Church, is evidence that it is indeed the Tradition of the Apostles, as are all the 7 Sacraments of the Church.

Peace!

Very comprehensive overview PJ, And the majority of the points that you made, in one aspect or another, I would agree with. The points that I have some disagreement with are the Sacraments, Eucharist and relative autonomy and jurisdiction of the Bishops. The Sacraments and Eucharist are too controversial to address here, right now.

But, as far as Apostle's authority is concerned, I've always had trouble in understanding the entirety of what Jesus meant in Matthew 16:19. That is, I would expect that this authority was not indiscriminate, that by the Apostle's own discretion they were allowed to ordain, preside, judge, condemn, empower, ... I believe that Christ was merely affirming that for their specific mission in the preliminary days of the Church, Jesus will endow them with the necessary wisdom and ability to make these decisions. To the point that their decisions were miraculously derived.

When Paul laid his hands on Timothy (1 Timothy 4:14, 2 Timothy 1:6), Timothy received supernatural power, and this was the testimony of all the men during the days of inception of the early Church. So, first of all, Timothy, or any other Apostle, did not establish rules that were derived by their own volition, and two, their inspiration was divine. And, in my own opinion, this authority to establish Dogma ended with the initial 13 (minus Judas). As far as Timothy & Titus' endowment was concerned, they did not define new rules, but were able to understand, explain, and impart what was handed down to them through the authorized Apostles.

 

[Philip James]

When Paul laid his hands on Timothy (1 Timothy 4:14, 2 Timothy 1:6), Timothy received supernatural power, and this was the testimony of all the men during the days of inception of the early Church.

And so still today, the Church affirms that in ordination one receives supernatural power and authority.

So, first of all, Timothy, or any other Apostle, did not establish rules that were derived by their own volition, and two, their inspiration was divine.

Do you then acknowledge that the episcopal model for the Church in a particular territory is divinely inspired, including who has the supernatural power and authority to ordain others?

And, in my own opinion, this authority to establish Dogma ended with the initial 13 (minus Judas). As far as Timothy & Titus' endowment was concerned, they did not define new rules, but were able to understand, explain, and impart what was handed down to them through the authorized Apostles.

but were able to understand, explain, and impart what was handed down to them

Here is indeed one of our Bishops chief responsibilities.

I will point out here that dogmatic statements and definitions usually come about in response to something being taught contrary to the Faith we have received and must pass down...

The Council of Nicaea's response to Arianism being an example. The Creed is a dogmatic statement binding on the whole Church, but it is not 'something new'. it is the understanding of the Church and what we have received from the apostles themselves...

'We have the mind of Christ' and trust that the Holy Spirit will always guide, guard, correct and build His Church, despite the failings of men...

Just to give you one more thing to think about, here is an example of the Traditional understanding of the Church:

That in the offering of the Eucharist is found the fulfillment of Malachi 1:11

I know you said:

The Sacraments and Eucharist are too controversial to address here, right now.

but I would suggest that the Sacraments and especially the Eucharist are what the entire life of the Church has revolved around for 2000 years, and that is practically impossible to have a discussion about authority in the Church with out speaking about the Sacrament of ordination.

Peace!

 

[theefaith]

No misquotes allowed!

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

 

[DNB]

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Nope. Even if it were true, we have absolutely no idea as to who succeeded who. And, no one today, has witnessed the same testimony that Paul brought with him - '...with signs and wonders we manifested our authority and calling, among you...'.

 

[DNB]

And so still today, the Church affirms that in ordination one receives supernatural power and authority.

Yes, that is the claim, but which is categorically devoid of any proof. All the denominations have egregious errors in their theologies, and extremely indicting characters within their clergies. Augustine, Luther & Calvin, Ignatius of Layola, etc were no saints, and I'd be amazed if any of them admitted to have been endowed with the Spirit?

Do you then acknowledge that the episcopal model for the Church in a particular territory is divinely inspired, including who has the supernatural power and authority to ordain others?

Never. I've never witnessed anyone with such an endowment, in their writings, nor in their power, wisdom or personalities.

The Council of Nicaea's response to Arianism being an example. The Creed is a dogmatic statement binding on the whole Church, but it is not 'something new'. it is the understanding of the Church and what we have received from the apostles themselves...

All the ecumenical councils and creeds, to me, are unorthodox! You are speaking with an anti-trinitarian, who vehemently denounces any deification of any other being within the universe, other than God the Father. And thus, this entirely underscores the farcical nature of these men claiming to have infallibility (maybe anachronistic here) or divine authority on any level.

but I would suggest that the Sacraments and especially the Eucharist are what the entire life of the Church has revolved around for 2000 years, and that is practically impossible to have a discussion about authority in the Church with out speaking about the Sacrament of ordination.

But what has been practiced for centuries, does not guarantee to be an attestation to truth. The Latin Vulgate was the only authorized version of the Bible (despite all its errors), Indulgences proved to be an erroneous practice, the Inquisition, the Crusades, The Ransom Theory of the Atonement, all were admittedly, errors of the 'universal' Church. Again, I only cited that ones that were exposed to be fallacious, there's many more that, in my mind, patently undermine the credibility of any Church or denomination as being imbued with the Holy Spirit or divine authority.

 

[Philip James]

But what has been practiced for centuries, does not guarantee to be an attestation to truth

Dear DNB,

Thank you for a frank and civil discussion. You asked me earlier:

But, I'm sorry PJ, are you prepared to give them that much authority, simply because they have apprehended the authority? By what standard? Do you not test the Spirit, do you not hold every man accountable to scrutiny? I have absolutely no grounds to give these men of antiquity, any credit whatsoever, besides what compares with Scripture, pre 2nd century. Is this some sort of 'blind' faith that you are employing, or is there some rationale behind your unconditional adherence?

And I'd like to come back to this..

First I don't (and can't!) give anyone authority.. I have not received the authority to do that! But the Church does! Our brothers, our sons... who are called to submit their entire lives to serve Christ and His Church... these we train and test and ordain through the power and authority of Christ vested in His Church and expressed through our ordained Bishops, and so has that apostolic authority been handed down from generation to generation, from the Apostles to men like Timothy, Titus, Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp ...

When I look at all the particular Churches that were established by the apostles, whether the Church in Rome, the Church in Alexandria, the Church in Antioch... in all these places, I find a community that celebrates the Sacraments in union with their Bishop.. nowhere do I find a 2000 year old Christian community that lives the Faith in any other manner.. If this is not the Tradition of the Apostles, then did the Church, everywhere, not only fall into error but the same error? Does that sound rational?

In light of Jesus promise that He would build a Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against... that He promised to be with till the end of the age.. that He prophesied would grow to the greatest of trees ..

If these Churches are not the community that He established through His apostles, where is it, who are they?

Where is the stone that has become a great mountain and filled the whole Earth?

Can a beacon set on a hill be hidden?

So no, my faith is not blind. I find in the Church of Rome and the Church in Alexandria and in the Church in Constantinople the One Faith, the One Bread and the One Cup that Jesus gave to the apostles handed down faithfully from one generation to the next.. if not these then who?

If we are not drinking from the Cup that John drank from, if we are not partaking of the same Loaf as he, where are we?

Brother, I do not say these things to shake your faith, but rather to invite you to the fullness of union with your brethren in the Eucharist, the very sign and instrument of our unity...

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

 

[DNB]

Dear DNB,

Thank you for a frank and civil discussion. You asked me earlier:



And I'd like to come back to this..

First I don't (and can't!) give anyone authority.. I have not received the authority to do that! But the Church does! Our brothers, our sons... who are called to submit their entire lives to serve Christ and His Church... these we train and test and ordain through the power and authority of Christ vested in His Church and expressed through our ordained Bishops, and so has that apostolic authority been handed down from generation to generation, from the Apostles to men like Timothy, Titus, Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp ...

When I look at all the particular Churches that were established by the apostles, whether the Church in Rome, the Church in Alexandria, the Church in Antioch... in all these places, I find a community that celebrates the Sacraments in union with their Bishop.. nowhere do I find a 2000 year old Christian community that lives the Faith in any other manner.. If this is not the Tradition of the Apostles, then did the Church, everywhere, not only fall into error but the same error? Does that sound rational?

In light of Jesus promise that He would build a Church that the gates of hell would not prevail against... that He promised to be with till the end of the age.. that He prophesied would grow to the greatest of trees ..

If these Churches are not the community that He established through His apostles, where is it, who are they?

Where is the stone that has become a great mountain and filled the whole Earth?

Can a beacon set on a hill be hidden?

So no, my faith is not blind. I find in the Church of Rome and the Church in Alexandria and in the Church in Constantinople the One Faith, the One Bread and the One Cup that Jesus gave to the apostles handed down faithfully from one generation to the next.. if not these then who?

If we are not drinking from the Cup that John drank from, if we are not partaking of the same Loaf as he, where are we?

Brother, I do not say these things to shake your faith, but rather to invite you to the fullness of union with your brethren in the Eucharist, the very sign and instrument of our unity...

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Thanks PJ, that was a great perspective and explanation on the unity and lineage of the Church, and as to why such a preservation of dogma is reliable. But, my only contention is that, all the grounds that you gave for this faithful transferal is only viable in theory, but not in practice. And, to be honest, I profoundly wish that what you are professing were true, it would make the conversion to Christianity 1,000 times easier and more productive.
But, history has clearly shown that corruption and heresy has infiltrated every single Church, in all of Christendom. The schisms that occurred, both the Papal schism and the East & West schism. The crusades, inquisitions, selling of indulgences, obscene wealth, integration of state and church, etc.. all were irrefutably heretical. My only point is, I find that as a Christian, I am 200% on my own in trying to decipher God-ordained dogma. I trust no man, no Church nor denomination, no congregation, no priest, cardinal or bishop, presbyter, nor minister. They are all infallible, and require scrutiny as to their teachings and characters. In other words, I believe that corruption infiltrated the Church immediately, and that as much truth was disseminated throughout the world, equally heresy crept in just as fast and as wide. The warnings were given at the time of the early Church.

Acts 20:28-31
20:28. "Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29. "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30. and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31. "Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

Matthew 7:15-15
7:15. "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

 

[Sabertooth]

...what is your understanding of dogma?

Dogma? Isn't that what they teach in catechism...?

 

[theefaith]

That’s what the Bible says


We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

 

[tabletalk]

That’s what the Bible says


We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Does the Bible say we must be taught by 'their (the apostles)successors'?

 

[theefaith]

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors in the church founded in the one true founded by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20