What is God looking for from us?

[Episkopos]

Here is the condition of fallen man, in his natural state, in the sight of God.

Rom. 3:9-19 (W.E.B.)
9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written,
“There is no-one righteous;
no, not one.

Yes, even the righteous sin. God knows our weakness. And He is merciful knowing we are but grass that withers. And yet He still declares some people as righteous. It depends on our attitude...calling things as they truly are. The Publican beat his chest and was ashamed to look up to heaven...and God justified him. The same for many others in the bible starting with Abel.

The idea that a man must be perfect to be righteous is a silly invention of religious theorists.

11 There is no-one who understands.
There is no one who seeks after God.

12 They have all turned aside.
They have together become unprofitable.
There is no-one who does good,
no, not so much as one.”

Good as in as good as God. There are many verses in the bible that call men righteous AND good. Even Cain was told by God that if he did good (tov) he would be accepted.

The idea is not to lower holiness in order to name and claim it...but to realize that true holiness is in the perfection of Christ. There is NO sinful holiness.....but the righteous do sin.

13 “Their throat is an open tomb.
With their tongues they have used deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is under their lips”;

14 “whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”

15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood.

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways.

17 The way of peace, they haven’t known.”

18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

And this describes much of modern Christendom.

19 Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may be brought under the judgement of God.

Eph. 2:1-3
1 You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience;
3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Rom. 8:7-9
7 because the mind of the flesh is hostile towards God; for it is not subject to God’s law, neither indeed can it be.
8 Those who are in the flesh can’t please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if it is so that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man doesn’t have the Spirit of Christ, he is not his.

This is why we must be born again, by a miracle of the Holy Spirit, in order to perceive and enter the Kingdom of God, through faith in Jesus Christ.

Amen. To be saved into the perfection of Christ one must be born of the Spirit, be LED by the Spirit, and enter into the Spirit. From there we have fellowship with God and overcome as Jesus did.

But to inherit life one must obey the commandments. The world does NOT have the same standard of judgment as the church. To whom much is given MORE is required.

Having been made born again, having repented and believed in Jesus Christ, we then bear fruit to God, by the Holy Spirit who indwells us, some thirty, some sixty and some an hundredfold.

Being born of the Spirit is not enough to become like Christ. One must now go to God and buy the full measure of grace. Think the parable of the pearl of great price.

Born again people ALSO still sin...just more in secret. Can God still see them????

Being under grace is NOT just one more way to fall short of God's commandments. Grace fulfills the law or it is not grace.

 

[Lizbeth]

Thank you for continuing the discussion.

Clearly, teaching salvation is your passion. You could tell us how that influences your interactions with others.

In contrast, some of us are passionate about details, whether it is the many of characteristics of Love Your Neighbor, or the minutiae of scripture. As it happens, those details figure decisively in our interactions with others.

Both must be important to God’s expectations for us, because scripture encompasses both.

Note: in Romans 2: 14-15 and Acts 28:1-7 the Apostle Paul observed that even though the gentiles he encountered were pagans, many had a culture with characteristics similar to Love Your Neighbor. This cannot have been an accident: God must have been working in their lives before they knew Him. God “prepared the ground,” so to speak, for Paul to plant the seeds of the gospel.

Peace.

It must be remembered that those pagans were not saved by loving their neighbours....loving their neighbours couldn't cancel out all their other sins. People can be very kind and hospitable to their neighbours and then commit something heinous like sacrificing a child to Molech or engage in Shamanism, or steal something, or move a boundary line, etc. Good deeds do not outweigh bad deeds....the bible says if you break even one law of God you have broken the whole Law. They still required faith in Christ and the gospel to be saved and made righteous through faith, the righteousness of GOD, which is why Paul went and preached to them.

 

[Episkopos]

It must be remembered that those pagans were not saved by loving their neighbours....loving their neighbours couldn't cancel out all their other sins. People can be very kind and hospitable to their neighbours and then commit something heinous like sacrificing a child to Molech or engage in Shamanism, or steal something, or move a boundary line, etc. Good deeds do not outweigh bad deeds....the bible says if you break even one law of God you have broken the whole Law. They still required faith in Christ and the gospel to be saved and made righteous through faith, the righteousness of GOD, which is why Paul went and preached to them.

No one is saved by doing anything. You are fully deceived, obviously. There is NOTHING you can do to be saved. No one can say they are righteous. No flesh is justified before God. You are SELF-justified based on your beliefs and religious theories. That's ALL you have. That makes you WORSE than those neighbours who don't claim to be righteous.

It is God who saves. It is God who justifies. You have no right to judge your neighbour. At what point do religious pretenders take on the role of judge of the world?

Paul says we are not to judge those OUTSIDE the church...God judges them. If you want to consign them all to hell...as well as 1.2 Billion Catholics....that says more about you than about them. How can you receive any mercy that gives none?

 

[Lizbeth]

No one is saved by doing anything. You are fully deceived, obviously. There is NOTHING you can do to be saved. No one can say they are righteous. No flesh is justified before God. You are SELF-justified based on your beliefs and religious theories. That's ALL you have. That makes you WORSE than those neighbours who don't claim to be righteous.

It is God who saves. It is God who justifies. You have no right to judge your neighbour. At what point do religious pretenders take on the role of judge of the world?

Paul says we are not to judge those OUTSIDE the church...God judges them. If you want to consign them all to hell...as well as 1.2 Billion Catholics....that says more about you than about them. How can you receive any mercy that gives none?

I just believe and speak what is written.

I’m afraid you’ve drunk the world’s politically correct koolaid, Episkopos. Equating simple truth speaking to condemnation/judgment. The devil has unfortunately been very successful in silencing truth with it in our time….no one dares to speak simple truth for fear of being called names like that. And sadly, here you are using his very weapon.


Rom 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of FAITH.


Rom 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

For with the heart man BELIEVETH unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

This is what the word simply says (among many other things), and I simply believe it......, with gratitude, knowing I do not merit this wonderful gift by my own righteousness.

 

[Episkopos]

I just believe and speak what is written.

I’m afraid you’ve drunk the world’s politically correct koolaid, Episkopos. Equating simple truth speaking to condemnation/judgment. The devil has unfortunately been very successful in silencing truth with it in our time….no one dares to speak simple truth for fear of being called names like that. And sadly, here you are using his very weapon.

The devil is preaching a false gospel that saves the flesh intact...and then elevates the ego into judging the rest of the world.

Rom 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of FAITH.

The higher walk empowered by grace. Yes...a few Gentiles have attained to this. But most have attained an even harder judgment than the Pharisees.

Of how much sorer judgment shall someone who abuses grace fall under than those who abused the law?

Rom 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Absolutely. But saved from what...and saved TO what?

For with the heart man BELIEVETH unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Again, saved to what?

This is what the word simply says (among many other things), and I simply believe it......, with gratitude, knowing I do not merit this wonderful gift by my own righteousness.

I have this book called "the Bible" and I read it with comprehension and the ability to think and reason. And I also have first hand experience with God that informs my reading.

What you are countering that with is a dogmatic and judgmental ideology based on opinions with no experience beyond a tingly feeling. Whatever doesn't line up with your emotional watchdog...you reject. Not very wise.

 

[David1701]

Yes, even the righteous sin. God knows our weakness. And He is merciful knowing we are but grass that withers. And yet He still declares some people as righteous. It depends on our attitude...calling things as they truly are. The Publican beat his chest and was ashamed to look up to heaven...and God justified him. The same for many others in the bible starting with Abel.

Here is the part of my post to which the above was your reply.


Rom. 3:9-19 (W.E.B.)
9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written,
“There is no-one righteous;
no, not one.

Since when is "Yes, even the righteous sin." a sensible reply to "There is no-one righteous; no, not one."? The passage (Rom. 3:9-19) is about the unrighteous (unbelievers), not about those who are righteous in God's sight (through faith in Christ) sinning sometimes.

The idea that a man must be perfect to be righteous is a silly invention of religious theorists.

One could be comparatively more righteous than someone else; but, to be righteous in God's sight, one must indeed be perfect. This is why Christ (who is perfect) must be our righteousness, through faith in him.

Good as in as good as God. There are many verses in the bible that call men righteous AND good. Even Cain was told by God that if he did good (tov) he would be accepted.

And Cain should have realised that, since he was unable to do good, he needed a Saviour. This was also one of the main purposes of the law of Moses: to teach people that, because they are unable to keep God's law, they are guilty, helpless and need a Saviour.

The idea is not to lower holiness in order to name and claim it...but to realize that true holiness is in the perfection of Christ. There is NO sinful holiness.....but the righteous do sin.

Yes.

And this describes much of modern Christendom.

Only the unsaved ones.

Amen. To be saved into the perfection of Christ one must be born of the Spirit, be LED by the Spirit, and enter into the Spirit. From there we have fellowship with God and overcome as Jesus did.

Yes.

But to inherit life one must obey the commandments. The world does NOT have the same standard of judgment as the church. To whom much is given MORE is required.

Those whom God has saved, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, are characterised by keeping the N.T. commandments, albeit that loving obedience is still marred by some sin.

Being born of the Spirit is not enough to become like Christ. One must now go to God and buy the full measure of grace. Think the parable of the pearl of great price.

Yikes! With what are you going to "buy the full measure of grace"? Grace is unmerited favour, so you can't merit it with a purchase price (and I know you were not referring to money).

Born again people ALSO still sin...just more in secret. Can God still see them????

Yes; but, when we sin, we are sorry and confess our sins to God. We are then restored to fulness of fellowship with him.

Being under grace is NOT just one more way to fall short of God's commandments. Grace fulfills the law or it is not grace.

Christ fulfilled the law on the cross! Those who trust in him are not under law, but under grace; and, that is why sin does not have dominion over us.

 

[JustMe]

No one is saved by doing anything. You are fully deceived, obviously. There is NOTHING you can do to be saved. No one can say they are righteous. No flesh is justified before God. You are SELF-justified based on your beliefs and religious theories. That's ALL you have. That makes you WORSE than those neighbours who don't claim to be righteous.

It is God who saves. It is God who justifies. You have no right to judge your neighbour. At what point do religious pretenders take on the role of judge of the world?

Paul says we are not to judge those OUTSIDE the church...God judges them. If you want to consign them all to hell...as well as 1.2 Billion Catholics....that says more about you than about them. How can you receive any mercy that gives none?

Why are you doing your usual empty grandstanding type response once again. here.

Liz never said that doing only things gets one saved. And then you called her 'decieved.' Do you have a heart for God?

That is completely off-topic from her discussion with that other person!

She essentially agreed with the other person, indirectly, and firmly ensured that salvation is not just the kindness prep work done by God ('loving neighbors') that what he raised or emphasized. Can you read and present an honest and gracious response without cutting her down, once again?

God’s role in salvation
Of course, it is God who saves a person.

Is Liz really judging God’s work in the lives of these pagans? Your response struck me as harsh.

Clarifying your statements about salvation
Since you have raised salvation again and suggested once more that Liz may not be saved, I would like to revisit two statements you made in another thread recently, ‘Breaking Free From Fake Religion’:

“We are INDEED saved by both faith and by works in righteousness..”

“For righteousness we are saved either by faith or by works..”

Which position reflects your belief: salvation by faith alone, by faith and righteous works, or by righteous works alone? Or as an added bonus possible answer, works before righteousness?

My concern
I believe you are deliberately misrepresenting Liz’s position. Your statements about salvation, both here and elsewhere, are also confusing.

 

[Lizbeth]

Why are you doing your usual empty grandstanding type response once again. here.

Liz never said that doing only things gets one saved. And then you called her 'decieved.' Do you have a heart for God?

That is completely off-topic from her discussion with that other person!

She essentially agreed with the other person, indirectly, and firmly ensured that salvation is not just the kindness prep work done by God ('loving neighbors') that what he raised or emphasized. Can you read and be present an honest and gracious response without cutting her down, once again?

God’s role in salvation
Of course, it is God who saves a person.

Is Liz really judging God’s work in the lives of these pagans? Your response struck me as harsh.

Clarifying your statements about salvation
Since you have raised salvation again and suggested once more that Liz may not be saved, I would like to revisit two statements you made in another thread recently, ‘Breaking Free From Fake Religion’:

“We are INDEED saved by both faith and by works in righteousness..”

“For righteousness we are saved either by faith or by works..”

Which position reflects your belief: salvation by faith alone, by faith and righteous works, or by righteous works alone? Or as an added bonus possible answer, works before righteousness?

My concern
I believe you are deliberately misrepresenting Liz’s position. Your statements about salvation, both here and elsewhere, are also confusing.

When Episkopos is proven wrong, he responds by getting angry and sowing confusion on purpose - throwing sand in our faces to distract and divert our attention. This is the pattern he has exhibited ever since I've known him on this forum, about 4 years. Notice he has avoided responding to my posts about Cain and Abel on p. 1. When he has no answer for something that proves him to be wrong he just gets mad and has a temper tantrum in the sandbox. Like Liberals and Democrats they can't handle simple truth when they are confronted with it, it just makes their head explode. Why, because they are wedded (captive) to their ideology/doctrine....they have an inability to simply change their mind.

 

[JustMe]

When Episkopos is proven wrong, he responds by getting angry and sowing confusion on purpose - throwing sand in our faces to distract and divert our attention. This is the pattern he has exhibited ever since I've known him on this forum, about 4 years. Notice he has avoided responding to my posts about Cain and Abel on p. 1. When he has no answer for something that proves him to be wrong he just gets mad and has a temper tantrum in the sandbox. Like Liberals and Democrats they can't handle simple truth when they are confronted with it, it just makes their head explode. Why, because they are wedded (captive) to their ideology/doctrine....they have an inability to simply change their mind.

Spot on...I've seen this of him over the years...and not as JustMe either....I'm been watching..I don't miss much although I try to bite-my tongue, many times.

Good posts...I like most of them from you Liz

 

[Episkopos]

Here is the part of my post to which the above was your reply.


Rom. 3:9-19 (W.E.B.)
9 What then? Are we better than they? No, in no way. For we previously warned both Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written,
“There is no-one righteous;
no, not one.

Since when is "Yes, even the righteous sin." a sensible reply to "There is no-one righteous; no, not one."? The passage (Rom. 3:9-19) is about the unrighteous (unbelievers), not about those who are righteous in God's sight (through faith in Christ) sinning sometimes.

The bible is written only to the people of God. Israel in the Old Testament...and spiritual Israel in the New Testament. The unbelief spoken of in the bible is ALWAYS concerning God's people...not the world at large. It is expected that the nations at large are not subject to the same criteria that the house of God is under.


Then there is the context. The Jews understand righteousness MUCH better than Christians do. But their understanding has no spiritual dimension....they only believe that God requires what a man can do of himself. As such any kind of higher righteousness is a mystery to them. They have not discovered the righteousness of God. There is none righteous, no not one that never sins. So then no man can justify himself for doing righteousness. But then again no man can justify himself for ANYTHING...not even an encounter with God. Even those who work miracles will be rejected if they claim to be justified. ONLY God justifies.

One could be comparatively more righteous than someone else; but, to be righteous in God's sight, one must indeed be perfect.

This is the evangelical error that causes so many to fail the grace of God. Jesus said unless YOUR righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees. An evangelical will think....but my righteousness is God's...thereby fully missing the point. We will NOT be judged by God's righteousness...and His actions....but our own righteousness and actions. God can use a rock to do His will...that doesn't justify the rock. MANY will be rejected because they assume that God using them justifies them...or that having an accurate belief justifies them. In no case is that true,

This is why Christ (who is perfect) must be our righteousness, through faith in him.

Why the "must"? For the saint yes. But for the righteous, obedience is required.

And Cain should have realised that, since he was unable to do good, he needed a Saviour.

No. God said he needed to do GOOD (tov) to be accepted. Are you a novice believer?

This was also one of the main purposes of the law of Moses: to teach people that, because they are unable to keep God's law, they are guilty, helpless and need a Saviour.

For holiness yes. The law of Moses had a temple holiness....that is now taken away....no temple. WE are the temple now.

Yes.


Only the unsaved ones.



Yes.



Those whom God has saved, by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, are characterised by keeping the N.T. commandments, albeit that loving obedience is still marred by some sin.

That is righteousness not holiness.

Yikes! With what are you going to "buy the full measure of grace"?

Jesus counsels us to buy from Him more than once. How many times have you read through the bible? Google it.

You buy God's full measure of grace is released with our FULL surrender.

Grace is unmerited favour, so you can't merit it with a purchase price (and I know you were not referring to money).

The initial grace is free. It is a sample to TASTE and see that the Lord is good. But to be filled with the Spirit costs us everything. Like the man who sells all to buy the field.

Yes; but, when we sin, we are sorry and confess our sins to God. We are then restored to fulness of fellowship with him.

At what depth? Most believers have a very SHALLOW relationship with God. Easy come easy go.

Christ fulfilled the law on the cross! Those who trust in him are not under law, but under grace; and, that is why sin does not have dominion over us.

Again at what depth. Sin has dominion over most believers...to varying degrees. Only by entering INTO Christ to be where He is do we have His resurrection power and life. That is the gospel that is no longer preached as we get ready for the anti-Christ to come out from us.

 

[Episkopos]

When Episkopos is proven wrong, he responds by getting angry and sowing confusion on purpose - throwing sand in our faces to distract and divert our attention. This is the pattern he has exhibited ever since I've known him on this forum, about 4 years. Notice he has avoided responding to my posts about Cain and Abel on p. 1. When he has no answer for something that proves him to be wrong he just gets mad and has a temper tantrum in the sandbox. Like Liberals and Democrats they can't handle simple truth when they are confronted with it, it just makes their head explode. Why, because they are wedded (captive) to their ideology/doctrine....they have an inability to simply change their mind.

I am a mirror here. You only see me as you are. And you call any correction as a personal attack...because your ego is so OUT THERE....on your sleeve, that everything is personal to you. You do these kind of drive by posts just to get a response... very immature. The sand is what you are standing on. I avoid a lot of your posts as fully pointless. Correcting your errors and confusion takes too long and is impossible to keep up with. I select a few of your doozie for the sake of others. You would have the truth be fully marginalized if you had your way...in favour of what doesn't go against your feelings.

 

[Lizbeth]

The devil is preaching a false gospel that saves the flesh intact...and then elevates the ego into judging the rest of the world.



The higher walk empowered by grace. Yes...a few Gentiles have attained to this. But most have attained an even harder judgment than the Pharisees.

Of how much sorer judgment shall someone who abuses grace fall under than those who abused the law?


Absolutely. But saved from what...and saved TO what?


Again, saved to what?

I have this book called "the Bible" and I read it with comprehension and the ability to think and reason. And I also have first hand experience with God that informs my reading.

What you are countering that with is a dogmatic and judgmental ideology based on opinions with no experience beyond a tingly feeling. Whatever doesn't line up with your emotional watchdog...you reject. Not very wise.

I'm not the one being emotional........it is humanistic man-centred false gospels that are emotional......they are based on sensual/emotional human love and sympathies - a man-centred earthly viewpoint instead of accepting the word of God and HIS view which is higher than ours. He is the Lord God Almighty and has the right to do with His creation as HE sees fit, as the bible says. He doesn't OWE anyone eternal life and is not unrighteous when He judges. Fallen man is like the beasts that perish........unless so blessed as to receive eternal life through faith in Christ and His atoning sacrifice.

 

[David1701]

The bible is written only to the people of God. Israel in the Old Testament...and spiritual Israel in the New Testament. The unbelief spoken of in the bible is ALWAYS concerning God's people...not the world at large. It is expected that the nations at large are not subject to the same criteria that the house of God is under.

The Bible was mostly written to God's people; but, not everything is about God's people.

Then there is the context. The Jews understand righteousness MUCH better than Christians do. But their understanding has no spiritual dimension....they only believe that God requires what a man can do of himself. As such any kind of higher righteousness is a mystery to them. They have not discovered the righteousness of God. There is non righteous, no not one that never sins. So then no man can justify himself for dong righteousness. But then again no man can justify himself for ANYTHING...not even an encounter with God. Even those who work miracles will be rejected if they claim to be justified. ONLY God justifies.

Since unbelieving Jews do not understand the spiritual dimension of righteousness, they don't understand it better than Christians do. Other than that, I agree with your paragraph.

This is the evangelical error that causes so many to fail the grace of God. Jesus said unless YOUR righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees. An evangelical will think....but my righteousness is God's...thereby fully missing the point. We will NOT be judged by God's righteousness...and His actions....but our own righteousness and actions. God can use a rock to do His will...that doesn't justify the rock. MANY will be rejected because they assume that God using them justifies them...or that having an accurate belief justifies them. In no case is that true,

Justification is by faith, as the Bible clearly states; however, genuine faith results in good works; so, a life devoid of good works is also devoid of genuine faith in the Lord, no matter what a person's claim may be.

Why the "must"? For the saint yes. But for the righteous, obedience is required.

The righteous are the saints.

No. God said he needed to do GOOD (tov) to be accepted. Are you a novice believer?

You've missed my point. I know that God said that if Cain did what is good, he would be accepted; that is exactly what the law says, and no-one, except the Lord himself, could keep it.

The point I was making was that God's exhortation to Cain should have led Cain to the humble realisation that he couldn't do it, thereby encouraging him to throw himself on God's mercy, rather than proudly thinking that his good works would make him accepted with God (that was his mistake in the first place: he offered the works of his hands (what he'd grown and harvested), as a sacrifice to God; whereas, Abel offered a blood sacrifice, as a substitute).

I hope you realise by now that I'm far from a novice...

For holiness yes. The law of Moses had a temple holiness....that is now taken away....no temple. WE are the temple now.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "temple holiness"; but, I agree that the body of Christ is the temple now.

That is righteousness not holiness.

Being genuinely set apart for God (holiness) leads to righteous deeds.

Jesus counsels us to buy from Him more than once. How many times have you read through the bible? Google it.

I don't need to google it. He was using a metaphor (e.g. buying eyesalve) meaning come to him in repentance and faith. Is that what you meant? I had the impression that it wasn't; but, feel free to correct me, if my impression was wrong.

You buy God's full measure of grace is released with our FULL surrender.

And how would you give to God your full surrender, without God working the willingness and doing of that full surrender within you?

The initial grace is free. It is a sample to TASTE and see that the Lord is good. But to be filled with the Spirit costs us everything. Like the man who sells all to buy the field.

The Bible says to be being filled with the Spirit, speaking to ourselves in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, making melody in our hearts to the Lord; however, I do agree that a lack of surrender can quench the Spirit and lead to a lower level of Christian life.

At what depth? Most believers have a very SHALLOW relationship with God. Easy come easy go.

I've never known a someone whom I believed to be a genuine Christian, who had an "easy come, easy go" attitude towards God!

Again at what depth. Sin has dominion over most believers...to varying degrees. Only by entering INTO Christ to be where He is do we have His resurrection power and life. That is the gospel that is no longer preached as we get ready for the anti-Christ to come out from us.

Sin only gains (temporary) dominion over a genuine believer in Jesus Christ, if he tries to live by law. If he does this, then he ends up with a Romans 7 experience of frustration and failure.

 

[Episkopos]

The Bible was mostly written to God's people; but, not everything is about God's people.

To God's people and those who INTERACT with God's people. What does the bible have to say about the Chinese?

Since unbelieving Jews do not understand the spiritual dimension of righteousness, they don't understand it better than Christians do. Other than that, I agree with your paragraph.

The Jews understand that righteousness is about DOING what is right. They understand what a human can do. That's why they look at Christians and KNOW they don't even understand human righteousness, let alone a divine righteousness...at least not the believers in our time. For moderns it is a pretend righteousness that blinds God to our true condition...not those who blaspheme God's name because of the behaviour of His wicked servants.

Justification is by faith, as the Bible clearly states; however, genuine faith results in good works; so, a life devoid of good works is also devoid of genuine faith in the Lord, no matter what a person's claim may be.

Sure...but God also justifies by works. It's just that the New Covenant is based on a miraculous walk in Christ that ONLY FAITH can attain to.

The righteous are the saints.

Not at all. The righteous sin. The saints do not. The saint can fall from grace and be restored...and be trained as he goes in and out of the Spirit. But the saint fully restored walks in a miraculous power called GRACE....to walk as Jesus walked in victory over sin.

You've missed my point. I know that God said that if Cain did what is good, he would be accepted; that is exactly what the law says, and no-one, except the Lord himself, could keep it.

At the holiness level only Jesus can walk perfectly. But many righteous did what could be expected of them as humans...as God justifies them on that level. And you are forgetting Abel...he did GOOD in God's eyes. Be honest.

The point I was making was that God's exhortation to Cain should have led Cain to the humble realisation that he couldn't do it,

That is false because Cain saw that his brother had done it. That's why he was jealous.

thereby encouraging him to throw himself on God's mercy, rather than proudly thinking that his good works would make him accepted with God (that was his mistake in the first place: he offered the works of his hands (what he'd grown and harvested), as a sacrifice to God; whereas, Abel offered a blood sacrifice, as a substitute.

Abel offered what He had. But it was his heart that did good. It wasn't a technique...or a proper and accurate sacrifice. Abel' sacrifice was received by God because it was good in His sight. We can think that Abel was clever enough to hide behind the blood of an animal....but the truth is that we need to surrender ourselves to God...not what our hands can provide. That was Cain's problem...he only saw the outside...as you are also now doing.

I hope you realise by now that I'm far from a novice...

I don't know that because you don't seem to be well versed on some very major themes of the bible. Righteousness, holiness, grace....these come from a religiously indoctrinated place...not an actual understanding or encounter with God. But I remain open that you may yet surprise me...

I'm not sure what you mean by a "temple holiness"; but, I agree that the body of Christ is the temple now.

Temple holiness...the place where God dwelled...the LOCATION of God for believers at that time. Holiness is ALWAYS about LOCATION. The Jews know this...but believers do not. Even a name for God in Hebrew is...THE LOCATION (hamakom)

Being genuinely set apart for God (holiness) leads to righteous deeds.

More than righteous deeds....deeds prepared in advance...eternal deeds. Even non-believers do righteous deeds. This is the dumbing down of the modern decoy religion of Christendom. Take away the righteousness of the righteous...then claim that we are righteous for doing what any man can do. Do you see that?

I don't need to google it. He was using a metaphor (e.g. buying eyesalve) meaning come to him in repentance and faith. Is that what you meant? I had the impression that it wasn't; but, feel free to correct me, if my impression was wrong.

We get spiritual faculties from God..seeing, hearing..being clothed with the righteousness of God, having eternal riches...

And how would you give to God your full surrender, without God working the willingness and doing of that full surrender within you?

God has His ways. And we are tested in them.

The Bible says to be being filled with the Spirit, speaking to ourselves in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, making melody in our hearts to the Lord; however, I do agree that a lack of surrender can quench the Spirit and lead to a lower level of Christian life.


I've never known a someone whom I believed to be a genuine Christian, who had an "easy come, easy go" attitude towards God!

Have you been to church lately?

Sin only gains (temporary) dominion over a genuine believer in Jesus Christ, if he tries to live by law. If he does this, then he ends up with a Romans 7 experience of frustration and failure.

Anybody in any religion will tell you the same thing (minus the Rom 7 reference). You need to learn what the New Covenant is.

People don't get frustrated with sin because they think they are already forgiven in advance. Why get frustrated when you have "grace" that hides your sins from God???

 

[David1701]

To God's people and those who INTERACT with God's people. What does the bible have to say about the Chinese?


The Jews understand that righteousness is about DOING what is right. They understand what a human can do. That's why they look at Christians and KNOW they don't even understand human righteousness, let alone a divine righteousness...at least not the believers in our time. For moderns it is a pretend righteousness that blinds God to our true condition...not those who blaspheme God;s name because of the behaviour of His wicked servants.


Sure...but God also justifies by works. It's just that the New Covenant is based on a miraculous walk in Christ that ONLY FAITH can attain to.


Not at all. The righteous sin. The saints do not. The saint can fall from grace and be restored...and be trained as he goes in and out of the Spirit. But the saint fully restored walks in a miraculous power called GRACE....to walk as Jesus walked in victory over sin.


At the holiness level only Jesus can walk perfectly. But many righteous did what could be expected of them as humans...as God justifies them on that level. And you are forgetting Abel...he did GOOD in God's eyes. Be honest.


That is false because Cain saw that his brother had done it. That's why he was jealous.


Abel offered what He had. But it was his heart that did good. It wasn't a technique...or a proper and accurate sacrifice. Abel' sacrifice was received by God because it was good in His sight. We can think that Abel was clever enough to hide behind the blood of an animal....but the truth is that we need to surrender ourselves to God...not what our hands can provide. That was Cain's problem...he only saw the outside...as you are also now doing.


I don't know that because you don't seem to be well versed on some very major themes of the bible. Righteousness, holiness, grace....these come from a religiously indoctrinated place...not an actual understanding or encounter with God. But I remain open that you may yet surprise me...


Temple holiness...the place where God dwelled...the LOCATION of God for believers at that time. Holiness is ALWAYS about LOCATION. The Jews know this...but believers do not. Even a name for God in Hebrew is...THE LOCATION (hamakom)

More than righteous deeds....deeds prepared in advance...eternal deeds. Even non-believers do righteous deeds. This is the dumbing down of the modern decoy religion of Christendom. Take away the righteousness of the righteous...then claim that we are righteous for doing what any man can do. Do you see that?


We get spiritual faculties from God..seeing, hearing..being clothed with the righteousness of God, having eternal riches...


God has His ways. And we are tested in them.


Have you been to church lately?

Anybody in any religion will tell you the same thing (minus the Rom 7 reference). You need to learn what the New Covenant is.

People don't get frustrated with sin because they think they are already forgiven in advance. Why get frustrated when you have "grace" that hides your sins from God???

I have the strong feeling that we're talking past each other, to some extent. Some of your responses appear to be "correcting" positions that I do not hold.

I think it would be best if, in our interactions, we could limit our posts to a small number of points. There are so many things, in your post, that I would like to respond to, but there's a great danger of the wood becoming a forest.