What is Grace?

[spockrates]

The best I can do to disscribe it is, God is a reader of mens minds and hearts. When you seek to know and understand Jesus in your mind and heart, when He determines the state of your understanding and desire He freely "gifts" you with the Holy Spirit. John 6:44

This nonsense that many churches teach today about the sinners prayer and now your a new creature is BS, God is watching and He determines when, where and how He takes up residency with-in you.


The sinner prayer is a public confession, Matthew 10:32-33 an open confession you are looking and desiring to become a member of the masters house.

Then I suppose one might be right to say grace is conditional, for it is conditioned on one's desire to receive it.

:)

 

[Rex]

Then I suppose one might be right to say grace is conditional, for it is conditioned on one's desire to receive it.

:)

Now your understanding

 

[spockrates]

Grace is not the power. The spirit is the power, which is bestowed by grace. So it is the spirit of grace.

Yes, ChristRose, that is what I'm trying to discern, at the moment: Is grace God's disposition toward me, or his power freely given to transform me?

Please tell me: How should we respond to the passage Episkopos brought to our attention?

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God...

Should we say God's disposition determines whether we receive the power to become his kids, but this power is not the same the disposition we call grace?

Now your understanding

Perhaps I have a partial understanding, but I sincerely hope it will become fuller, soon!

:)

So then, are you thinking grace is conditioned on desire, but in no way on repentance or faith? Or would you say I also need to repent of my life if sin and believe in Him? Are these not also necessary conditions?

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, I think I see. It would seem, then that one's understanding of what grace is might determine one's conclusion as to how grace saves. For example, if I were to believe grace to be God's attitude toward me, I'd likely come to a different opinion about how to be saved than you, who believes grace to be God's power given to me.

So how do I know for certain whether the grace that saves me is an attitude or a power? Would you say the verses you cited are all I need, or is there a more convincing proof?

Well we see that God judges impartially. I think too many Christians are brainwashed into believing that God is Christian in a denominational sense. He makes no distinction between a Christian or a non-Christian according to their person. He does give grace to the humble though. A Christian is supposed to follow Christ. So a Christian who is humble will receive the grace he/she needs in order to please God. Our attitude is what counts...not God's. God's power is what counts...not ours. So if we become overcomers of sin through God's grace then we will receive the benefit of that salvation even though it was through His power. That is why it is OUR faith that saves us. Our faith that makes His grace work in us. Our witness is that God has taken up our cause by fighting in us...and we have given up our cause so that His kingdom comes first. Again, God doesn't care what your beliefs are. No one is judged for their beliefs. They are judged by their works.

 

[Rex]

Perhaps I have a partial understanding, but I sincerely hope it will become fuller, soon!

:)

So then, are you thinking grace is conditioned on desire, but in no way on repentance or faith? Or would you say I also need to repent of my life if sin and believe in Him? Are these not also necessary conditions?

Look at what Jesus told the disciples before the Holy Spirit was gifted unto them.
John 14:15-31

Mark 1:15 is Jesus words

But read the whole message
Mark 1:1-15 ------->>>>> then Jesus called the disciples.

But don't forget Eph 2:8-10

 

[spockrates]

Well we see that God judges impartially. I think too many Christians are brainwashed into believing that God is Christian in a denominational sense. He makes no distinction between a Christian or a non-Christian according to their person. He does give grace to the humble though. A Christian is supposed to follow Christ. So a Christian who is humble will receive the grace he/she needs in order to please God. Our attitude is what counts...not God's. God's power is what counts...not ours. So if we become overcomers of sin through God's grace then we will receive the benefit of that salvation even though it was through His power. That is why it is OUR faith that saves us. Our faith that makes His grace work in us. Our witness is that God has taken up our cause by fighting in us...and we have given up our cause so that His kingdom comes first. Again, God doesn't care what your beliefs are. No one is judged for their beliefs. They are judged by their works.

Perhaps you are right that we are not judged for our lack of faith, but I wonder. One reason why I wonder is this passage:

For it is by grace [that is, God's power] you are saved, through faith. And this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one might boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)

It would seem, then that this grace (or what might be power) saves us, but it saves us through faith. Faith, then might be a way by which I receive such power, though not necessarily the only way. My desire, as you thoughtfully pointed out, is also likely a way through which I receive this power, I think. But what do you think?

 

[Rex]

I'm going to butt in again and remind you this power is not yours to weld as you desire, it is God manifesting Himself threw you.

the biblical definition of faith Heb 11:1-3


Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.

 

[Episkopos]

Perhaps you are right that we are not judged for our lack of faith, but I wonder. One reason why I wonder is this passage:

For it is by grace [that is, God's power] you are saved, through faith. And this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one might boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(Ephesians 2)

It would seem, then that this grace (or what might be power) saves us, but it saves us through faith. Faith, then might be a way by which I receive such power, though not necessarily the only way. My desire, as you thoughtfully pointed out, is also likely a way through which I receive this power, I think. But what do you think?

What the law was unable to do...because of the weakness of the flesh...the grace of God accomplishes through the strength of God. It is by grace that we are kept from doing what we used to do. It is by grace that we are born anew. It is by grace that our flesh life is crucified with Christ so we can walk in holiness before God.

 

[spockrates]

Look at what Jesus told the disciples before the Holy Spirit was gifted unto them.
John 14:15-31

Mark 1:15 is Jesus words

But read the whole message
Mark 1:1-15 ------->>>>> then Jesus called the disciples.

But don't forget Eph 2:8-10

"The time has come," [Jesus] said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

(Mark 1:15)

So then, it seems, Paul's words in Ephesians 2 are not quite a complete list of the conditions to be saved. For he mentions only grace and faith, but leaves out desire and repentance. But I don't think this means he disagreed with Christ. Instead I think it means he did not intend to mention every condition in Ephesians 2. Don't you?

It looks like there are two definitions of grace we are all considering:

1. Grace is God's undeserved favor
2. Grace is God's undeserved power

 

[Rex]

"The time has come," [Jesus] said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

(Mark 1:15)

So then, it seems, Paul's words in Ephesians 2 are not quite a complete list of the conditions to be saved. For he mentions only grace and faith, but leaves out desire and repentance. But I don't think this means he disagreed with Christ. Instead I think it means he did not intend to mention every condition in Ephesians 2. Don't you?

No what he means is our repentance and or works are never going to justify salvation. The realization of salvation is the realization of grace and the weakness of our flesh. We can never obtain or deserve "earn" salvation. After you have walked this walk you begin to realize its not you that walks righteously but rather the Lord with-in you that causes you to be so.

Jesus He came to pay a debt he didn't owe. Because we owe a debt we cannot pay

So now we have come full circle and were back to God reading the desire and intention of the heart.
The desire and realization we are incomplete, and insufficient apart from Him

For in him we find the fulness of life and life more abundantly, peace I bring you John 14:27 Proverbs 3:1-2

 

[spockrates]

No what he means is our repentance and or works are never going to justify salvation. The realization of salvation is the realization of grace and the weakness of our flesh. We can never obtain or deserve "earn" salvation. After you have walked this walk you begin to realize its not you that walks righteously but rather the Lord with-in you that causes you to be so.

Jesus He came to pay a debt he didn't owe. Because we owe a debt we cannot pay

So now we have come full circle and were back to God reading the desire and intention of the heart.
The desire and realization we are incomplete, and insufficient apart from Him

For in him we find the fulness of life and life more abundantly, peace I bring you Proverbs 3:1-2

Yes, I think I'm beginning to see. The Lord within me is Christ's power that enables me to become one who obeys. This power that works in me is not the grace that saves. For grace is undeserved favor, not power. Am I better understanding you?

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, I think I'm beginning to see. The Lord within me is Christ's power that enables me to become one who obeys. This power that works in me is not the grace that saves. For grace is undeserved favor, not power. Am I better understanding you?

The power that works in us IS the grace that saves us. It is undeserved but it works in us...and it is not an it but a He...It is Christ in us. It is Christ that saves us. We are saved as we remain in Him.

 

[HammerStone]

Grace is unmerited favor, as has been said already in at least one post.

Grace is conditional in the sense that it requires faith perhaps from our finite perspective, but it is ultimately unconditional in that the God who fashions and provides it (if you will) makes the choice to bestow it. The crux of my statement is that grace exists alone wholly because of God, therefore it is unconditional grace. If God withheld grace, whether I desired it or not, I could not receive it. You don't do anything to deserve it - to meet a certain condition - faith withstanding.

 

[ScottAU]

Grace is simply the provision of God which is available to all people.

Grace is the means by which a sinner is brought to salvation.

Titus 2:11-12 states that "the grace of God that brings salvation teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, uprightly and godly in the present age."

When we yield to the influence of God by faith the end result is the salvation of the soul. Hence we are saved by grace through faith, not of ourselves (anything we can do apart from the provision of God).

Jesus categorically stated that He was "the way, the truth and the life" and that "none can approach the Father except through Him." In other words Jesus Christ taught that He was the "ultimate reality" for Jesus Christ is the "expression of God" or the Logos (Word) to humankind. Which is why James would teach that it is the "implanted word which saves the soul" and we must "lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness in order to receive it."

The entire theme of the Bible in a nutshell is a call to all men (and women) to yield to God. Any individual who forsakes their own ways and turns back to God will be saved which is why Jesus taught that if we "lose our life we will save it." We lose the life whereby we served the carnal passions with a mind set on the earthy, that life must die in order to gain true life whereby we are governed by the Spirit of God and are thus the manifest sons of God.



Many false teachers today present grace as the "unmerited favour of God" presented to mankind through the "death of Christ" which is twisted into being a legal transaction which acts as a "forensic cloak" for an ongoing state of rebellion. The fruit of this deception are double-minded converts who have never truly had the axe laid to the root of rebellion via repentance and thus have never crucified the flesh with the passions and desires.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Many false teachers today present grace as the "unmerited favour of God" presented to mankind through the "death of Christ" which is twisted into being a legal transaction which acts as a "forensic cloak" for an ongoing state of rebellion. The fruit of this deception are double-minded converts who have never truly had the axe laid to the root of rebellion via repentance and thus have never crucified the flesh with the passions and desires.

I knew you'd eventually get to the perversion you teach. Took 6 paragraphs of truth to establish the pretext for one paragraph of lies, but you finally got there. (btw, I must commend you on your relatively short post!)

Once again you attempt to blur the distinction between sinful nature and acts of sin. For those who seek GOD, the cloak, or atonement, is a necessary component of grace. Without it we would be naked before a holy GOD. With it we can have boldness to approach the mercy seat because the sinful nature, and any acts of sin that we are confessing, are covered by the blood.

A shadow of this cloak was there in the beginning when GOD shed an animal's blood in order to provide a covering for Adam and Eve, so that they could continue to seek GOD through faith and not hide from him.

Faith in the atonement is not by any means double-mindedness, because there is a distinction between having a corrupt nature, and a corrupt heart. You cannot see this distinction because you do not believe that your nature is corrupt. In you this scripture is fulfilled:

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Why don't you explain to us why you think faith in atonement is double-minded?

 

[bytheway]

With all the debating of grace it comes down to how one handles it. grace is opposed to earning,but is not opposed to effort! Acts 4:33 presents "great" grace! What does one do with that? Seems there are levels of grace. Reminds me of Ephesians 1:19 where Paul discribes the exceeding greatness of His power. He always out does Himself. Men can only come to greatness,God uses the last great thing He did as a spring board to the greater. Understanding grace in it's first dimention is only the starting point.

 

[spockrates]

The power that works in us IS the grace that saves us. It is undeserved but it works in us...and it is not an it but a He...It is Christ in us. It is Christ that saves us. We are saved as we remain in Him.

Yes, I understand. So how do I figure out who is correct--you or Rex?

Grace is unmerited favor, as has been said already in at least one post.

Grace is conditional in the sense that it requires faith perhaps from our finite perspective, but it is ultimately unconditional in that the God who fashions and provides it (if you will) makes the choice to bestow it. The crux of my statement is that grace exists alone wholly because of God, therefore it is unconditional grace. If God withheld grace, whether I desired it or not, I could not receive it. You don't do anything to deserve it - to meet a certain condition - faith withstanding.

Welcome to the conversation, Hammer! So why is it true that grace is unmerited favor but not unmerited power?

I knew you'd eventually get to the perversion you teach. Took 6 paragraphs of truth to establish the pretext for one paragraph of lies, but you finally got there. (btw, I must commend you on your relatively short post!)

Once again you attempt to blur the distinction between sinful nature and acts of sin. For those who seek GOD, the cloak, or atonement, is a necessary component of grace. Without it we would be naked before a holy GOD. With it we can have boldness to approach the mercy seat because the sinful nature, and any acts of sin that we are confessing, are covered by the blood.

A shadow of this cloak was there in the beginning when GOD shed an animal's blood in order to provide a covering for Adam and Eve, so that they could continue to seek GOD through faith and not hide from him.

Faith in the atonement is not by any means double-mindedness, because there is a distinction between having a corrupt nature, and a corrupt heart. You cannot see this distinction because you do not believe that your nature is corrupt. In you this scripture is fulfilled:



If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8
Why don't you explain to us why you think faith in atonement is double-minded?

I hope to get a break from the too frequent mud slinging so we might each wipe the dirt from our eyes and see why they believe. Those who differ in opinion might be sincerely wrong but still sincere. Don't you agree?

So I wonder why you and Scott read the same passage of scripture but get opposite understandings of the scriptural meaning. Could it be because some scripture is ambiguous and can be interpreted in different ways, even though only one way is true? Take the passage Scott quoted:

Titus 2:11-12 "the grace of God that brings salvation teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, uprightly and godly in the present age."

You read the words and see:

"the [unmerited favor] of God that brings salvation teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, uprightly and godly in the present age."

Scott reads the same but sees:

"the [unmerited power] of God that brings salvation teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live soberly, uprightly and godly in the present age."

I read the words and cannot yet see which is the right meaning for me! So how do I choose?

BTW:

Sorry for my ambiguity. I was not suggesting you are a frequent mud slinger. Rather, I was observing that mud slinging often occurs in discussion forums such as this.

:)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I hope to get a break from the too frequent mud slinging so we might each wipe the dirt from our eyes and see why they believe. Those who differ in opinion might be sincerely wrong but still sincere. Don't you agree?

So I wonder why you and Scott read the same passage of scripture but get opposite understandings of the scriptural meaning. Could it be because some scripture is ambiguous and can be interpreted in different ways, even though only one way is true?

No, in this case I don't agree at all. You're a newcomer here and apparently don't realize yet what I consider to be the wickedness of his doctrine. IMO, it completely undermines the faith of Christ. The dichotomy you presented is inaccurate. Stick around and don't judge until you know the facts.

 

[spockrates]

No, in this case I don't agree at all. You're a newcomer here and apparently don't realize yet the wickedness of his doctrine. It completely undermines the faith of Christ. The dichotomy you presented is completely inaccurate. Stick around and don't judge until you know the facts.

Yes, I will. Indeed, I always endeavor to not make a judgment about the correct meaning of scripture until I have sufficient facts. And I understand you zeal, for what one believes about grace might very well determine whether one receives such grace and escapes eternal judgment!

But when you say you don't believe at all, do you mean you don't believe some scripture is ambiguous to me?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

But when you say you don't believe at all, do you mean you don't believe some scripture is ambiguous to me?

I think you meant to say 'agree at all'. What I meant is that I don't agree that my comments toward Dan Scott were mudslinging, or that deceivers need to be respected for their sincerity.