williemac said:
I am jumping in a little late, as I was not aware of this topic. I don't think grace has been defined yet. It is not God's favor, as some say. The favor is the thing which grace brings to us. On the subject of life and righteousness, in Rom.5:15-18, we find that both of these are gifts. And in the NKJ,and other translations they are called 'free' gifts. Unlike a couple of the doctrines presented above, the bible shows that the sacrifice of Jesus and His resurrection to life are they which have provided these gifts to man. This is also seen in 2Cor.5:19,20. Salvation is God's gift to mankind, to they who are willing to accept it as such: namely a gift. Therefore grace is the giving of a free gift. Faith is the means by which we receive this gift.
Jesus told His disciples "Freely you have received. Freely give".
Several of us have replied to the doctrine presented in reply #45. I will again do so later today after work. It is in opposition to grace. In fact, it opposes the blood sacrifice of Jesus. It opposes faith. Here is a quote from it:
"The above view teaches that a sinner is released from condemnation due to the penal demands of the law being satisfied because Jesus Christ bore the literal punishment due the sinner. In other words, it is taught, Jesus "paid the fine that was owed."
The Bible simply does not teach any such notion anywhere and if you believe it does then the burden is on those who teach this doctrine to produce the scriptural passages which clearly establish this doctrine."
I accept this burden. Start with Rom.5: 15-21. In the meantime, the above post cam along before I had opportunity to read it. "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" NOT the "service" of sin, as you suppose.
Firstly the "service of sin" ceases when WE DIE WITH CHRIST through the baptism of repentance
Rom 6:4 Therefore
we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach
the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
...
Mat 9:16 No man putteth a piece of new cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse.
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but
they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
You see the "old man" cannot be reformed, he must instead die. It is through dying that we can live, hence we lose our lives that we save them.
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and
he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
We partake in the sufferings of Christ.
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh,
arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Thus it is true that the "lamb of God taketh away the sins of the world" in respect to "past sin" (Rom 3:25, 2Pet 1:9) but this is ONLY the case IF one walks in the light (1Joh 1:7) which we enter into through the baptism of repentance whereby we lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (Jam 1:21) and thus becomes DOERS of the word (Jam 1:22), being a DOER of the word is the same as WALKING in the light (1Joh 1:7).
As for the scripture passage you mentioned...
Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
There is nothing in the above passage which states that Jesus "satisfied the penal demands of the law by bearing the literal punishment due the sinner." Paul didn't say anything of the sort and therefore by merely referencing the passage is meaningless, especially in regards that you don't even offer an explanation.
It is indeed true that the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ (Rom 6:23) and this is mirrored in Rom 5:15-21. Eternal life is indeed a free gift from God BUT there are CONDITIONS that are attached to it. Many are made righteous via the obedience of Christ in that 1. Jesus offered Himself that our past sins be forgiven (thus we are cleansed of all unrighteousness/sin) and 2. that we follow His example whereby we WALK IN THE SPIRIT and the MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS of God is wrought THROUGH US.
Christ's work is not something that one simply "trusts in" APART from being a "doer of the word." There is a connection there which the doctrine of Penal Substitution totally undermines, in fact it destroys it.
Remember that Rom 5:15-21 is connected to Romans 6:1-7 where Paul clearly defines the HOW one enters into "righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." Moreover Paul in the latter part of chapter 6 specifically makes these statements...
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of
obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to
righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto
holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Obedience --------> Righteousness -----------> Holiness.
The gift of God THROUGH Jesus Christ is the dynamic by which a sinner is brought from a state of rebellion to God (sin unto death) and is returned to favour (reconciled) whereby they are doers of the will of God.
Again I make the earnest contention that there is no salvation IN sin. None.
The wolves preach a false abstract salvation message which gives an assurance to sinners that they are saved when still in rebellion. This is why the church system is full of sin and hypocrisy, the underlying message being preached is error.
Episkopos said:
I believe that Scott is making a stand against the easy-believism that is so prevalent in the churches today. These are the pew warmers...the lip service crowd that goes along with the status quo of religious consumerism. In a rush to get the pews filled the standard of God has been set aside so that the multitudes can now be "born-again" by the will of men rather than God.
Does God give grace to the wicked?
Grace has abounded when sin has abounded..
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But
where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Yet this abounding grace is accessed by faith (yielding/faithfulness/abiding in Christ)
Rom 5:2 By whom also
we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
For God indeed "gives grace" whereby it is made
effectual to the saving of the soul.
Jas 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.
Hence God is the author of the salvation of those whom obey or yield to Him.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became
the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
False teachers will strongly imply that obedience "follows" salvation and thus deny that obedience is a "condition" of salvation. Thus they teach an a stage where a person whom is "saved" can still be in transgression. Hence we get the doctrine of the "carnal" or "disobedient" Christian.
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Oh yes it is, Dan Scott.
I already told you several times that I'm not going to entertain your ridiculously long posts. Instead I am going to peel the layers off your onion one layer at a time as I see fit.
So please describe in simple terms, without all of the extensive scripture quotations that you use in place of discussion, what the doublemindness is you are talking about. Don't use a lot of scripture and vague homilies; speak from the heart.
IMO grace is the attitude or disposition of GOD that he expresses towards us. The holy spirit he gives us through his grace is the power.
You ought to actually examine what I write instead of writing it off in your mind as "ridiculously long posts."
You have not peeled the layers of any onion because you have not written anything of substance in regards to anything I have written. All you have done is appeal to a FEW verses of scripture which you have isolated out of context as proof texts of erroneous teachings.
I would much prefer to engage in a discussion with you where we look at the actual fundamentals of what we believe and compare it to Scripture. What does the Bible actually teach is the issue. Rhetoric without substance is but temporary smoke, it dissipates and is of no consequence. Let God be true and every man a liar.
If you can show me where I am in error by applying Scripture IN CONTEXT then I will align myself with what the Scripture teaches. My opinion is of no consequence if it does not match up with the Scripture.
You ask this...
So please describe in simple terms, without all of the extensive scripture quotations that you use in place of discussion, what the doublemindness is you are talking about. Don't use a lot of scripture and vague homilies; speak from the heart.
I wasn't vague in the slightest. Human beings have two choices. We can either walk our way, according to the passions and desires of the flesh in disregard to the grace of God OR we can submit to the express will of God and walk in the light. The two do not mix, we are to choose this day whom we will serve. Jesus said we cannot serve two masters and Paul taught we are slaved to whom we obey.
If we CHOOSE to do wrong when WE KNOW it is wrong then we are in rebellion to God. It is that simple.
The double-mindedness I am talking about is this notion where "sin is inevitable" because it is some sort of ethereal substance associated with the flesh which NECESSITATES that people sin. Thus when people believe that sin is inevitable they are inoculated against being able to "cease from sin." Thus, under this mindset, salvation has nothing to do with the cessation of sin whereby people continue to sin with impunity while being convinced that they are saved (because they believe that Jesus "paid their penalty").
Under this doctrinal system the pastors cannot warn their congregations that rebellion to God will disqualify anyone from the kingdom because everyone is in some kind of rebellion (some are worse than others). Therefore the preaching consists of moral lessons of what people SHOULD do instead of what people MUST do.
For evidence of this just ask any pastor if there is any sin or sins that must stop BEFORE God will grant forgiveness.
The vast majority will implicitly state that no sin MUST STOP even when asked about specific sins like murder, child molestation, or pornography watching. They truly believe that one is saved IN sin. It is a tragedy of epic proportions that so many people are beguiled by Satan.
Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but
whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
