OK Scott. Thanks for the clarification.
Watching video now...
strike 1: DeSario says the Greek word translated
reconciliation means '
a return to favor'. Not true. He's using the modern definition of reconciliation, not the Greek definition. The Greek definition points to an exchange, or substitution. Christ took our sins and sin penalty (death)
You cannot provide a single scripture which states that Jesus "took your sin penalty." A Christian is indeed released from the penalty of sin via the blood of Christ but nowhere does the Bible teach that Jesus suffered the penalty in your place. Those who hold to Penal Substitution slip and slide around this fundamental flaw of their doctrine in that it is not taught in the Bible.; we take his righteousness and life.
We are made the righteousness of God IN Him. There is no transfer of the righteousness of Christ to your account, where does the Bible say anything close to that? It doesn't. God reckons FAITH as righteousness.
G2643 καταλλαγή katallage (kat-al-lag-ay') n.
1.
an exchange
2. (figuratively) an adjustment, reconciliation
3. (specially) restoration to the divine favor
[from G2644]
G2644 καταλλάσσω katallasso (kat-al-las'-so) v.
1.
to change mutually
2. (figuratively) to reconcile
[from G2596 and G236]
G236 ἀλλάσσω allasso (al-las'-so) v.
1.
to change, transform, make different
[from G243]
G243 ἄλλος allos (al'-los) adj.
1. "else," i.e.
different
Mike is absolutely correct.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2643: καταλλαγή
καταλλαγή, καταλλαγῆς, ἡ (καταλλάσσω, which see);
1. exchange; of the business of money-changers, exchanging equivalent values ((Aristotle, others)). Hence,
2. adjustment of a difference, reconciliation, restoration to favor, (from Aeschylus on); in the N. T., of the restoration of the favor of God to sinners that repent and put their trust in the expiatory death of Christ:
2 Corinthians 5:18f; with the genitive of the one received into favor, τοῦ κόσμου (opposed to ἀποβολή),
Romans 11:15; καταλλαγήν ἐλάβομεν, we received the blessing of the recovered favor of God,
Romans 5:11; with the genitive of him whose favor is recovered, 2 Macc. 5:20. (Cf. Trench, § lxxvii.)
ref: http://biblesuite.com/greek/2643.htm
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
We are restored to divine favour through repentance and faith whereby we access the blood and are cleansed of all sin. As new creations we walk in the Spirit fully yielded to God. It is a COMPLETE CHANGE. You doctrine only implies a "partial change" if any because Penal Substitution is merely "salvation by proxy" for it is only a status change as opposed to a literal purifying of the heart. Penal Substitution leaves the convert in a defiled state due to its denial of heeart purity being wrought when one abides in Jesus Christ.
Strike 2 (foul ball): DeSario says that atonement requires '
a mere recognition of facts', whereas reconciliation requires '
repentance and faith proven by deeds'. Only partially true. Reconciliation is a mutual exchange accomplished by both man and GOD. Christ took our sins (fact), and we take his righteousness by acknowledging this fact (repentance and obedient faith).
What Mike says is completely true. The gospel message of those who preach Penal Substitution teach that upon "confession of sinfulness" and the "trusting in the Penal Exchange" salvation is assured. The most common method utilised is the "sinners prayer." There is no genuine repentance where the rebellion ceases in this gospel message. It is purely a mental notion. If genuine reconciliation did actually take place the reconciled individual would no longer be engaging in rebellion, the very issue which separates an individual from God in the first place.
You write this...
Christ took our sins (fact), and we take his righteousness by acknowledging this fact (repentance and obedient faith).
There is the "mental notion" of your doctrine. You define "acknowledge this fact" as "repentance and obedient faith." Yet the Bible teaches that repentance is the change of mind which produces a change of action, ie. the rebellion ceases. Obedient faith is being faithful to God which is the complete opposite of engaging in sin.
Strike 3 (yer OUT!): DeSario says the Greek word translated
propitiation means mercy. Not true. Greek word means an
expiatory, which is something that expiates:
G2435 ἱλαστήριον hilasterion (hil-as-tay'-ree-on) n.
1. an
expiatory (place or thing)
2. (concretely) an atoning victim
3. (specially) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple)
: - mercyseat, propitiation.
http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strongs.cgi?file=greeklexicon&isindex=2435
Definition of EXPIATE
1
obsolete : to put an end to
2
a : to extinguish the guilt incurred by
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/expiate
Mike is actually correct again. The expiation of sin IS the mercy of God. The word literally means MERCY SEAT. Why did you leave that out of your definitions? Why didn't you reference the definitions you provided?
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2435: ἱλαστήριος
ἱλαστήριος, ἱλαστηρια, ἱλαστήριον (ἱλάσκομαι, which see), relating to appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory: μνῆμα ἱλαστήριον, a monument built to propitiate God, Josephus, Antiquities 16, 7, 1; ἱλαστήριος θάνατος, 4 Macc. 17:22; χεῖρας ἱκετηριους, εἰ βούλει δέ ἱλαστηριους, ἐκτείνας Θεῷ, Niceph. in act. SS. edition Mai, vol. v., p. 335, 17. Neuter τό ἱλαστήριον, as a substantive, a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation (German Versöhnungs- oderSühnmittel); cf. Winer's Grammar, 96 (91); (592 (551)). So used of:
1. the well-known cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins were expiated); hence, the lid of expiation, the propitiatory, Vulg.propitiatorium; Luth.Gnadensruhl (A. V. mercy-seat):
Hebrews 9:5 (the Sept. Exodus 25:18ff; Leviticus 16:2, etc.; more fully ἱλαστήριον ἐπίθεμα,
Exodus 25:17; Exodus 38:7 (Exodus 37:6), for the Hebrew כַּפֹּרֶת, from כִּפֶּר to cover, namely, sins, i. e. to pardon). Theodoret, Theophylact, Oecumenius, Luther, Grotius, Tholuck, Wilke, Philippi, Umbreit (Cremer (4te Aufl.)) and others give this meaning to the word also in
Romans 3:25, viz. that Christ, besprinkled with his own blood, was truly that which the cover or 'mercy-seat' had been typically, i. e., the sign and pledge of expiation; but in opposed to this interpretation see Fritzsche, Meyer, Van Hengel (Godet, Oltramare) and others at the passage
2. an expiatory sacrifice; a piacular victim (Vulg.propitiatio):
Romans 3:25 (after the analogy of the words χαριστηρια sacrifices expressive of gratitude, thank-offerings, σωτηρία sacrifices for safety obtained. On the other hand, in Dio Chrysostom or. 11, 121, p. 355, Reiske edition, the reference is not to a sacrifice but to a monument, as the preceding words show: καταλείψειν γάρ αὐτούς ἀνάθημα κάλλιστον καί μέγιστον τῇ Ἀθηνα καί ἐπιγράψειν, ἱλαστήριον Ἀχαιοι τῇ Ἰλιαδι). (See the full discussion of the word in Dr. Jets. Morison, Critical Exposition of the Third Chapter of the Epistle to the Romans, pp. 281-303.)
ref: http://biblesuite.com/greek/2435.htm
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.
INNING OVER!
How can you expect me to take your doctrine seriously when your leader can't even get the most basic things right? It's only 7:35 into the video and he's already struck out. I'm not listening to any more of it; I've heard enough. This is the same thing I experience when reading your writings - one fallacy built upon another.
Mike is not my leader, he is simply a very sound teacher. My leader is Jesus Christ.
You watched 7 minutes and 35 seconds looking for gnats to strain at and by selectively quoting varuous definitions (you obviously did not do any in depth research) you have made erroneous conclusions.
You do not love the truth. Scroll up and look at the definitions I sources and posted, for they prove you have erred in what you have written.
It is the same with the Bible verses I show you, you have ZERO response to them because they plainly prove you wrong. Thus you just stick your fingers in your ears and have refused to listen.