What is Legalism?

[robert derrick]

No...I am not a Jew.

Correct. I apologize. I saw your other post after asking you.

So, you say some of the law of Moses is still law of God for Christians to obey?

If so, what Scriptures show that?

I am not disagreeing with you, except perhaps in wording of the law of God.

 

[Grailhunter]

So, you say some of the law of Moses is still law of God for Christians to obey?

No that was my buddy Ferris.
You cannot subdivide the Law....it is all or nothing and none of it is for Christians.
If a person understood the Mosaic Law they would understand that this is a serious sin. A Christian can sin under the Mosaic Law by trying to subdivided. Christ said Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

People get confused about this....If you are paying attention, most of the time in the Gospels when Christ is speaking with people He is a Jew....talking to Jews....about Judaism. So a lot of the conversations are about Judaism not Christian beliefs. The Jews that want to know about Christ's teaching usually come to Him in private.

You cannot change the Mosaic Law....you cannot subdivide them and observe just some of them. It is a serious violation. The Mosaic Law is still in effect for the Jews....but not Christians.

 

[robert derrick]

I am not going to explain it because it does not in the practical sense. You can give lip service to Christ too if you want. Not my way.
What is the correct response to a law? To be obeyed. Uphold hold the law? Is that when the State Trooper pulls you over for doing 70 in a 40 and you say to him, Thank you for your service.

I got to tell you that I do not have a good bedside manner for crazy....so move it on.

I believe the confusion between grace and law is summed up by two seemingly contradictory verses:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Rom 6)

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law. To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. (1 Cor 9)

Now, we both know that Scripture does not ever contradict itself, therefore, it is up to us by study and Spirit to allow time for Scripture to show its' own solution.

1. It is clear that not being under the law but under grace does not mean we are without law: lawless. Riotous living (Luke 15:13)(1 Peter 4:4). Criminal behavior. (1 Peter 4:15)

2. It is also clear that we are under law to Christ and not without law to God.

Therefore, when Scripture speaks of Christians not being under law, and yet being under law of Christ and not without law to God, then plainly we are not under any law, that is not to God and of Christ.

And since the context of a law that is not of Christ, is to the Jews, then Scripture must be referring to the law of Moses, which the Jews kept to that day:

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. (Acts 15)

So, we are not under law of Moses, and thus are not judged thereby: No man can be called transgressor by God, if any man transgresses law of Moses. However, we are with law to God, and we are under law of Christ: Any man can be called transgressor by God, it any man transgresses the law of Christ.

Where no law is, there is no transgression (Rom 4:15). And since there is law of Christ to God, then there is transgression against it, by any person.

The error therefore is twofold: not taking all Scripture into account, and so not taking necessary context into account:

"Christians are not under law at all" is an obvious lie against Scripture, which would then mean Christians are without law to God: having no law of God to do and to keep, lest we also become transgressors of God's law of Christ:

For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. (Gal 2)

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (James 2)

Not being under law other than that of Christ, and being under grace, is not to be without law, and lawless, just because we are saved by grace.

 

[robert derrick]

No that was my buddy Ferris.
You cannot subdivide the Law....it is all or nothing and none of it is for Christians.
If a person understood the Mosaic Law they would understand that this is a serious sin. A Christian can sin under the Mosaic Law by trying to subdivided. Christ said Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

People get confused about this....If you are paying attention, most of the time in the Gospels when Christ is speaking with people He is a Jew....talking to Jews....about Judaism. So a lot of the conversations are about Judaism not Christian beliefs. The Jews that want to know about Christ's teaching usually come to Him in private.

You cannot change the Mosaic Law....you cannot subdivide them and observe just some of them. It is a serious violation. The Mosaic Law is still in effect for the Jews....but not Christians.

The Mosaic Law is still in effect for the Jews....but not Christians

Up to the last point, I was all on board. I would tweek that by saying that Jews still choose to try and be under law of Moses, though God no more commands it for any person to obey.

The law of God by Moses has been changed by God, which He is free to do now, because of the blood of His Son on the cross:

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Heb 7:12)

The entire Covenant and priesthood for which the law of Moses was made and given has been done away: vanished away and out of sight from God.

To suggest that the law of Moses is still commanded by God to a certain people is to say that Covenant of God with them is still in effect, as well as the Levitical priesthood, which would thus confirm the sacrifices of bulls and goats to be commanded as well.

Is it not?

Some try to parse the 'ceremonial' from the 'commandments' of the law, which you apparently rightly reject. The law of God has always been one whole law (Lev 7:7), not to be divided nor sectioned off one from the other. And God has only one law with one covenant: the New Testament and law of Christ.

Does God have two laws today? one law of God by Moses for Jews and one law of God by Christ for Christians?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The law is truly spiritual.....this is garbage.

"We know that the law is spiritual..." Romans 7:14

 

[Grailhunter]

I believe the confusion between grace and law is summed up by two seemingly contradictory verses:

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Rom 6)

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law. To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. (1 Cor 9)

Now, we both know that Scripture does not ever contradict itself, therefore, it is up to us by study and Spirit to allow time for Scripture to show its' own solution.

1. It is clear that not being under the law but under grace does not mean we are without law: lawless. Riotous living (Luke 15:13)(1 Peter 4:4). Criminal behavior. (1 Peter 4:15)

2. It is also clear that we are under law to Christ and not without law to God.

Therefore, when Scripture speaks of Christians not being under law, and yet being under law of Christ and not without law to God, then plainly we are not under any law, that is not to God and of Christ.

And since the context of a law that is not of Christ, is to the Jews, then Scripture must be referring to the law of Moses, which the Jews kept to that day:

For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. (Acts 15)

So, we are not under law of Moses, and thus are not judged thereby: No man can be called transgressor by God, if any man transgresses law of Moses. However, we are with law to God, and we are under law of Christ: Any man can be called transgressor by God, it any man transgresses the law of Christ.

Where no law is, there is no transgression (Rom 4:15). And since there is law of Christ to God, then there is transgression against it, by any person.

The error therefore is twofold: not taking all Scripture into account, and so not taking necessary context into account:

"Christians are not under law at all" is an obvious lie against Scripture, which would then mean Christians are without law to God: having no law of God to do and to keep, lest we also become transgressors of God's law of Christ:

For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. (Gal 2)

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. (James 2)

Not being under law other than that of Christ, and being under grace, is not to be without law, and lawless, just because we are saved by grace.

There is a religious literary style in play in the New Testament. It does not matter if it is Christ, or Paul, or Peter, or John they, each person, will speak to the extreme of a topic and this happens with many topics. In the time period this was understood that the meaning was in the middle. That is why in the early Christian writings you do not see them throwing scriptures at each other and explaining away scriptures....like you see here on this forum.

But now 2000 years later, people do not understand this style. Over the years I have gathered debate material and I can post most of opposing scriptures for a lot of topics and a lot of times they came from the same person. And I have done it here on this forum....where there are two sides debating and I post both sides of the scriptures. Both sides of that debate may come from Paul for example or John...etc

Christ and the Apostles were not trying to confuse us by stating the extremes of the topic...it was the style. People are not interested in understanding the style...instead they try to prove their beliefs by using scriptures as weapons and in the end, usually both side are at least partially wrong.

Grace is one of those topics...exactly how it works is the subject of debates....but if you believe in the one God formula for the Trinity you are probably not going to understand Grace. Because part of it presents us before God the Father as perfect and blameless, two separate minds.. The reason being is that Yahweh did not change between the Covenants. He cannot tolerate imperfection. If you have ever committed a sin, you cannot have a relationship with Him. The process of salvation cleanses us and makes us perfect before God the Father. The sins we commit and are forgiven by Christ and are between us and Christ are never seen or known by God the Father.

In the end Christianity makes sense and you do not want to get into the hocus pocus of Christian rhetoric that tries to harmonize all the scriptures because they are not intended to be harmonized. The truth of the message is in the middle.

Another example, there are scriptures that speak of Grace and salvation being secure, but then it is clear that evildoers will not inherit the kingdom of God, heaven will not be full of evil. Where is the middle? Speaking of the "average Christians" most of us are not going to tax the parameters of Grace. We sin, repent, and ask forgiveness....and Christ forgives us. What you have to watch out for are lifestyle sins. You cannot repent something you intend to keep doing, Christ is no fool, He knows your heart, so you cannot get forgiveness for it.

This is one of the reasons it is important to know what real sins are. Christians should intend to live a life without sin...we are going to fail in that honest attempt, and that is what forgiveness and Grace is for. We should do our best to be good and do good for one another....simple.

One of the reason I know that a lot of people do not understand Christianity is that if you mention being good or doing good, there are some that will nearly go berserker! Christians against being good and doing good for one another....what has this religion come to?

 

[Grailhunter]

Up to the last point, I was all on board. I would tweek that by saying that Jews still choose to try and be under law of Moses, though God no more commands it for any person to obey.

Right. Is God forcing people to be Jews? No. Even in the biblical era, Paul made it clear that it was a choice to be under the Law.

The law of God by Moses has been changed by God, which He is free to do now, because of the blood of His Son on the cross:

No. Christ is not into changing the law. In the New Covenant the Mosaic Law does not pertain to Christians. As Christians we follow the teachings of Christ... Christ spoke against the law of divorce...tooth for a tooth....etc, but He was talking to Jews about the Mosaic Law. Now Jewish adherence of the Law over the ages is a complicated topic...no one can follow the Mosaic Law now, they would end up in an insane asylum or prison.

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. (Heb 7:12)

You are quoting Hebrews....priesthood...Hebrews indicates that Christ was a High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek...Since history does not record this order...it is a secret organization. The Bible does not define Melchizedek as either Jew or Christian. Fundamentalism does not have the information to explain this.

The entire Covenant and priesthood for which the law of Moses was made and given has been done away: vanished away and out of sight from God.

To suggest that the law of Moses is still commanded by God to a certain people is to say that Covenant of God with them is still in effect, as well as the Levitical priesthood, which would thus confirm the sacrifices of bulls and goats to be commanded as well.

Is it not?

True the lineage of the Jewish priesthood is gone....that mostly was the result of destruction of the Temple in 70 ad. A lot things changed at that point. And as I pointed out if you look into how modern Jews look at the Mosaic Law it get complicated.

Does God have two laws today? one law of God by Moses for Jews and one law of God by Christ for Christians?

Again complicated....I attended classes at Jewish Studies at American University in Washington DC and I did courses out of Hebrew International in Jerusalem, and was lucky enough to catch some seminars at Hebrew University in Baltimore. (Back when it was still called Hebrew University) As it was in the biblical era...today there are also several sects of Judaism. At no point does the Bible actually say to the Jews to stop observing the Mosaic Law. Christ had several opportunities to do that. The Laws in the Old Testament as whole are referred to as being forever and individual Laws are referred to as forever.

Now you might wonder why I am so interested in Judaism? History! There are things about Christianity that you cannot understand without knowing where it came from....that includes history and knowledge of the time periods.

 

[Grailhunter]

"We know that the law is spiritual..." Romans 7:14

Put it in motion....give us all the example of the Law being spiritual. You would be smarter to explain why Paul said the Law is spiritual.

 

[amigo de christo]

Does the phrase "true law" appear in the Bible?
God did not want Adam and Eve to know the Knowledge of good and evil. Was Christ wrong in tell us what was right and what was wrong? Should we continue to think that killing a raped woman is good and just? If we did kill a raped woman, would that be wrong? Is it lip service and hypocrisy to in anyway to support those actions?

There is a desire for some to combine Judaism and Christianity and Christ explained that that can only lead to ruin.

Well i did say it was spiritual and that got misunderstood .
IF we have the LOVE that comes FROM GOD upon our hearts , we would love Truth . WE would love what God calls good and hate what he considers evil . IF we have the love that comes From GOD , we would not steal , we would not bear false witness , we would not
have other gods before GOD , i mean if we actually read the law , we would find that the LOVE that GODS sews upon a truly born again lamb
Does not do evil , it loves not evil . IT would FULLFILL THE VERY RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law .
I dont think most folks know what the NEW convenant is really all about . It was not about accepting sin at all .
IT was to put the law of GOD upon our inward parts . WHERE the LOVE of GOD fullfills the law through us . LOVE GOD above all
then love your neighbor as yourself . IT bears no wrong towards GOD nor man . IT FULLFILLS the law .
BUT any love that justifies evil , sin , etc , IS NOT LOVE . BUT a lie and a delusion .

 

[Grailhunter]

Well i did say it was spiritual and that got misunderstood .
IF we have the LOVE that comes FROM GOD upon our hearts , we would love Truth . WE would love what God calls good and hate what he considers evil . IF we have the love that comes From GOD , we would not steal , we would not bear false witness , we would not
have other gods before GOD , i mean if we actually read the law , we would find that the LOVE that GODS sews upon a truly born again lamb
Does not do evil , it loves not evil . IT would FULLFILL THE VERY RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law .
I dont think most folks know what the NEW convenant is really all about . It was not about accepting sin at all .
IT was to put the law of GOD upon our inward parts . WHERE the LOVE of GOD fullfills the law through us . LOVE GOD above all
then love your neighbor as yourself . IT bears no wrong towards GOD nor man . IT FULLFILLS the law .
BUT any love that justifies evil , sin , etc , IS NOT LOVE . BUT a lie and a delusion .

It only stands to reason if the morality and application of Christianity....the examples that Christ set....what He and Apostles taught... if all that is highest of all morality and love and understanding....then of course it would include the good rudimentary Morales of the Old Testament by its superiority...and you would miss nothing if you did not even know anything about the Mosaic Laws.

Back in the day they made these pocket size Bible that you could fit in your shirt pocket and it was only the New Testament. Anyone and everyone could get saved by just reading the New Testament....

 

[amigo de christo]

It only stands to reason if the morality and application of Christianity....the examples that Christ set....what He and Apostles taught... if all that is highest of all morality and love and understanding....then of course it would include the good rudimentary Morales of the Old Testament by its superiority...and you would miss nothing if you did not even know anything about the Mosaic Laws.

Back in the day they made these pocket size Bible that you could fit in your shirt pocket and it was only the New Testament. Anyone and everyone could get saved by just reading the New Testament....

Yep , POINT the peoples to JESUS CHRIST . That alone is how anyone is saved .
That if you shall confess with your MOUTH the LORD JESUS and Believe from the heart that GOD has rose Him from the dead
you shall be saved . SING IT Through the vallleys , over the hills and from sea to sea . LET THE KING BE PRAISED .

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Does the phrase "true law" appear in the Bible?
God did not want Adam and Eve to know the Knowledge of good and evil. Was Christ wrong in tell us what was right and what was wrong? Should we continue to think that killing a raped woman is good and just? If we did kill a raped woman, would that be wrong? Is it lip service and hypocrisy to in anyway to support those actions?

There is a desire for some to combine Judaism and Christianity and Christ explained that that can only lead to ruin.

You are obviously ignorant of the fact that

1. Judaism is the religion of the Pharisees and not the OT religion God gave to Israel
2. Biblical Christianity includes practicing what was commanded in the OT(Deut. 8:3, Matt 4:4, Luk. 4:4, Eph. 2:19-20)
3. OT Israel was given civil codes as well as religious codes.
4. Christ plainly stated in Matt. 5:17-20 that Christians are expected to keep the Law and that He came to show how it is to be kept under the new covenant. So when you say Christ supposedly said that can only lead to ruin, i would have to say you an outright liar and deceiver. In Deuteronomy, this same Christ(as the OT God) said the person who keeps the Law will prosper. That's the exact opposite of being led to ruin.

Antinomians are total hypocrites, and their own logic proves it. They'll demonize people who live by the Law while simultaneously quoting passages in the Law to refute arguments from pro-abortionists, the LGBT community, anyone delving into witchcraft or divination, and atheists to make themselves look holy and knowledgeable.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Put it in motion....give us all the example of the Law being spiritual.

"Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against any of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself." Leviticus 19:18

"If you really fulfill the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well." James 2:8​

 

[robert derrick]

Right. Is God forcing people to be Jews? No. Even in the biblical era, Paul made it clear that it was a choice to be under the Law.



No. Christ is not into changing the law. In the New Covenant the Mosaic Law does not pertain to Christians. As Christians we follow the teachings of Christ... Christ spoke against the law of divorce...tooth for a tooth....etc, but He was talking to Jews about the Mosaic Law. Now Jewish adherence of the Law over the ages is a complicated topic...no one can follow the Mosaic Law now, they would end up in an insane asylum or prison.



You are quoting Hebrews....priesthood...Hebrews indicates that Christ was a High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek...Since history does not record this order...it is a secret organization. The Bible does not define Melchizedek as either Jew or Christian. Fundamentalism does not have the information to explain this.



True the lineage of the Jewish priesthood is gone....that mostly was the result of destruction of the Temple in 70 ad. A lot things changed at that point. And as I pointed out if you look into how modern Jews look at the Mosaic Law it get complicated.



Again complicated....I attended classes at Jewish Studies at American University in Washington DC and I did courses out of Hebrew International in Jerusalem, and was lucky enough to catch some seminars at Hebrew University in Baltimore. (Back when it was still called Hebrew University) As it was in the biblical era...today there are also several sects of Judaism. At no point does the Bible actually say to the Jews to stop observing the Mosaic Law. Christ had several opportunities to do that. The Laws in the Old Testament as whole are referred to as being forever and individual Laws are referred to as forever.

Now you might wonder why I am so interested in Judaism? History! There are things about Christianity that you cannot understand without knowing where it came from....that includes history and knowledge of the time periods.

No. Christ is not into changing the law.

So, it is not correct to say that the law was changed of necessity, because the priesthood was changed, when the covenant was changed?

Or, rather:

Is the old covenant done away and vanished?

Is the priesthood of that covenant given by the law of a carnal commandment changed?

Is that law therefore of necessity also changed?

If not, the Scripture is not true.

If so, how?

 

[Grailhunter]

1. Judaism is the religion of the Pharisees and not the OT religion God gave to Israel

LOL just a label to refer to them. But what would you call the people at the bottom of Mt. Sinai...LOL

2. Biblical Christianity includes practicing what was commanded in the OT(Deut. 8:3, Matt 4:4, Luk. 4:4, Eph. 2:19-20)

Just nope.

3. OT Israel was given civil codes as well as religious codes.

Depending on what school of thought you are prescribing to they are divide differently.
Moral Civil and Ceremonial
Commandments...Ordinances...Statutes
And just FYI the words code or codes do not appear in the Old Testament.

4. Christ plainly stated in Matt. 5:17-20 that Christians are expected to keep the Law and that He came to show how it is to be kept under the new covenant.

Oh you silly bugger LOL He is talking about Judaism. Go practice the letter of the Law....do not bother sending me a postcard from prison. Keep reading you will find He references offering at the altar and the a letter of divorce also Jewish.

Anyway the rest is too silly. I do not like your attitude so your punishment is to live in ignorance....do not worry it is full of bliss.
You are now on ignore.

 

[Grailhunter]

"Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against any of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself." Leviticus 19:18

"If you really fulfill the royal law stated in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well." James 2:8​

These are physical acts....I am looking for the spiritual....What did Paul mean....We know that the law is spiritual

 

[Grailhunter]

So, it is not correct to say that the law was changed of necessity, because the priesthood was changed, when the covenant was changed?

Talk about bringing up a bunch of topics in single statement! Congratulations.

Supposedly their were Levites in the New Testament era but none in authoritative power....which is another topic.

The Jewish priesthood was changing during the New Testament....usually having connections with Rome. But the coup de grâce was the destruction of the Temple in 70 ad.

Covenant....accord....agreement....not time periods. To put it simply the Jews were in the last old agreement with God.
The Christians were in the latest agreement with God.

Covenants are not changed. Usually they are broken and reestablished....the Jews hold to the old covenant. Nothing being simple or definitive...

Amos 7:8-10 And the Lord said to me, “What do you see, Amos?” And I said, “A plumb line.” Then the Lord said, “Behold I am about to put a plumb line In the midst of My people Israel. I will not spare them any longer. The high places of Isaac will become deserted, And the sanctuaries of Israel will be in ruins. Then I will rise up against the house of Jeroboam with the sword.”

Amos 8:2 And He said, “Amos, what do you see?” So I said, “A basket of summer fruit.” Then the LORD said to me: “The end has come upon My people Israel; I will not pass by them anymore.

This is around 800 bc and some contend that this was the end of the Old Covenant, but it does not come right out and say it. If true, it does change a few things.

The New Covenant...the Christian Covenant was composed at the Last Supper and established with Christ's Blood.

 

[Iconoclast]

"We know that the law is spiritual..." Romans 7:14

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

 

[Ferris Bueller]

These are physical acts....I am looking for the spiritual....What did Paul mean....We know that the law is spiritual

The physical act of loving others, meeting their needs, doing them no harm, is spiritual. The offer of our bodies in obedience to God—summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'—is our spiritual worship.

"...offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship." Romans 12:1

"...let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth." 1 John 3:18

 

[Grailhunter]

The physical act of loving others, meeting their needs, doing them no harm, is spiritual. The offer of our bodies in obedience to God—summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'—is our spiritual worship.

"...offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship." Romans 12:1

"...let us love not in word and speech, but in action and truth." 1 John 3:18

I am pretty sure that Christ's teaching covered all that and set all the examples.....Old Testament spiritualism?....nope!