What is the affect on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[Mr E]

Someone saw it and wrote about it, most likely in a vision, so, we've got dream symbolism going on here. In Bible prophetic symbolism, there is precedent for humans to be represented as animals and spirits/angels to be represented as humans. (This is likely to reflect the nature of spirits/angels as being more rational while humans are more carnal) So Genesis is a likely the story of a spirit/angel who becomes "clothed in animal skins" - or is forced to incarnate on Earth due to sin.

So close. But you can't quite see the forest for the trees.... Or maybe you can't see the trees because of the forest?

A man was once lost in a forest like this- Wandering around aimlessly... hopelessly... And the forest was so dense. The canopy above so thick that no light could penetrate. So the man walked in darkness and the longer he walked, the more confused he became. Every tree looked the same and though he was certain, and though he was careful-- in time he realized that he had passed this place before. He was going in circles. He was indeed lost.

For forty years he wandered. In the forest. In the desert. In the wilderness. In the sea. Lost. Going in circles. Passing the same places, learning the same lessons again and again, but never remembering in time to avoid the same mistakes. Only after the fact, could he realize the missteps he had taken and then repeated, over and over and over.

So Genesis is likely the story of.... ?

Of? Of two Adam's. Scripture makes this clear. The first-- flesh. The second, spirit. But the flesh came first.

Let me throw you a bone. What day was Adam created? Day 6? --that's what Genesis 1 tells us. But Genesis 2 tells a different story. It tells of another Adam made before the day of man. The Adam before Adam. The Adam before any plant or tree or beast.

Now no shrub of the field had yet grown on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. Springs would well up from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. The LORD God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Understanding now the importance of dream symbolism and scripture's treatment of those things seen in spirit--

The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a companion for him who corresponds to him.” The LORD God formed out of the ground every living animal of the field and every bird of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man named all the animals, the birds of the air, and the living creatures of the field, but for Adam no companion who corresponded to him was found.

 

[St. SteVen]

...unless you make your 'dump [of] a bunch of scripture on' TOP of me, but, they would
have to be from the [mutual concensus of the] KJB. I always have great trouble trying to
process the differences/omissions/additions, [changing doctrines?] of the newer, easier
to understand [as many claim] of the NOT ["Preserved (By God) for every generation"]
versions.

Perhaps I should provide a list of references for scripture we could discuss?
Not as a matter of rebuttal, but as a matter of examination?
After all, I'm not trying to prove you WRONG, nor me RIGHT.

Let's take five at a time for now? (in no particular order)
Please respond with your translation of choice. (the scriptures)
Add comments, or wait for mine.

What do these scriptures say about Ultimate Redemption?

Acts 3:21

1 John 2:2

Romans 11:32

Titus 2:11

1 Timothy 4:10

 

[St. SteVen]

If you removed the "original sinner" then you've removed Lucifer.
He's the father of it, not Adam.

My bad. And a bit confused.
So Jesus died for Lucifer?

 

[St. SteVen]

A) Already agree "ALL are sinners" Correct?

B) God's Requirements for salvation?:
1) by "faith PLUS works" Or:2) By Grace Through faith, apart from ALL work

Wait! WE already agreed on 2? Just double checking, in case of an error in my thinking...
C) Then discuss the Differentiation or homogenization of the 'multiple' Judgments?

d) Then UR?

Multiply judgments. There's a topic. (a whole topic)

I have wondered about the judgment of nations in Revelations.
Which may add another layer to the range of what you were thinking.
Anyway...

It seems that judgment/evaluation/correction/restoration/redemption...
will come in many forms and views.

But I see it happening in a single age. (of undetermined length)
So, essentially one judgment. (multifaceted) Like a gem. (when finished)

Here's a list off the top of my head.
- Nations
- Government leaders and kings
- Religious leaders - Rabbis, priests, pastors, gurus, shaman, etc.
- Tribe and family leaders - parents
- Individuals that established a relationship with God prior to the afterlife
- Individuals that DID NOT establish a relationship with God prior to the afterlife

What will be judged? (evaluated/corrected/restored/redeemed...)
- Every idle word and thought -- publicly (before all watching)
- Every public and secret act

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[St. SteVen]

By reincarnation lineage I mean that Adam was reincarnated into David, then David was reincarnated into Jesus. (And if there was any other incarnation in between these three, I don't know, it is never stated overtly).

For example, Jesus is called the Son of David, but why is Jesus called the Son of David when he is not descended from David? Joseph was David's descendent, but Jesus is not Joseph's son. In this context, it means a spiritual descendent, a reincarnation.

Also, there are multiple places in the Bible where David is referred to as the Messiah. Not even as a "branch of David", or "like David", but literally, the Messiah being "God's servant David".

Ezekiel 34
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.

Okay.
Thanks for the explanation.

 

[St. SteVen]

Someone saw it and wrote about it, most likely in a vision, so, we've got dream symbolism going on here. In Bible prophetic symbolism, there is precedent for humans to be represented as animals and spirits/angels to be represented as humans. (This is likely to reflect the nature of spirits/angels as being more rational while humans are more carnal) So Genesis is a likely the story of a spirit/angel who becomes "clothed in animal skins" - or is forced to incarnate on Earth due to sin.

Thanks.
That brings up an interesting question. Since there were no witnesses, where did the account come from?

I guess I assumed it was told to each generation throughout time, until written down.

 

[St. SteVen]

from a sampling of a few it seems like they might be anagrams of a progression that we might witness or even experience? There’s a couple more known ones…the one starting with Adam?

That's a curious view. Any examples?

 

[bbyrd009]

That's a curious view. Any examples?

ya, the more quoted one starting with Adam? that i couldnt really find? i can dig it up, its around somewhere. dunno if they all do that though...guess i could slog through a random one and see

 

[bbyrd009]

Thanks.
That brings up an interesting question. Since there were no witnesses, where did the account come from?

I guess I assumed it was told to each generation throughout time, until written down.

Adamu means "human" in Ak...in Babylonian language, apparently

 

[Adam]

So close. But you can't quite see the forest for the trees.... Or maybe you can't see the trees because of the forest?

A man was once lost in a forest like this- Wandering around aimlessly... hopelessly... And the forest was so dense. The canopy above so thick that no light could penetrate. So the man walked in darkness and the longer he walked, the more confused he became. Every tree looked the same and though he was certain, and though he was careful-- in time he realized that he had passed this place before. He was going in circles. He was indeed lost.

For forty years he wandered. In the forest. In the desert. In the wilderness. In the sea. Lost. Going in circles. Passing the same places, learning the same lessons again and again, but never remembering in time to avoid the same mistakes. Only after the fact, could he realize the missteps he had taken and then repeated, over and over and over.

So Genesis is likely the story of.... ?

Of? Of two Adam's. Scripture makes this clear. The first-- flesh. The second, spirit. But the flesh came first.

Let me throw you a bone. What day was Adam created? Day 6? --that's what Genesis 1 tells us. But Genesis 2 tells a different story. It tells of another Adam made before the day of man. The Adam before Adam. The Adam before any plant or tree or beast.

Now no shrub of the field had yet grown on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. Springs would well up from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. The LORD God formed the man from the soil of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Understanding now the importance of dream symbolism and scripture's treatment of those things seen in spirit--

The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a companion for him who corresponds to him.” The LORD God formed out of the ground every living animal of the field and every bird of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man named all the animals, the birds of the air, and the living creatures of the field, but for Adam no companion who corresponded to him was found.

Adam represents God, or perhaps Adam is simply patterned after God as a lesser reflection of the creator. Adam is completely alone, so part of him is split off as Eve so that he can love himself.

 

[Mr E]

Adam represents God, or perhaps Adam is simply patterned after God as a lesser reflection of the creator. Adam is completely alone, so part of him is split off as Eve so that he can love himself.

In one sense he is the image of God. A representation. A reflection. But Adam is not God.

Adam is a tree.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Perhaps I should provide a list of references for scripture we could discuss?

Ok, that would be great. One thing - could you begin a New thread, as I like to review alot, and,
staying here and scrolling [at my OLD age] through a MULTITUDE of off-topic comments about
"originisms, incarnationisms, uniformitarianisms, catastrophisms, and, empiricisms" just would
not be very appealing in my method of thorough Scriptural examination of ONE topic, UR?

Looking forward to another Great discussion with you there, my friend... an Ultimate Restart?

Never mind:
I started the thread Warning ALL De-railers about OFF-topic 'UR' (Ultimate Reporting) :

deleted

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Ok, that would be great. One thing - could you begin a New thread, as I like to review alot, and,

staying here and scrolling [at my OLD age] through a MULTITUDE of off-topic comments about
"originisms, incarnationisms, uniformitarianisms, catastrophisms, and, empiricisms" just would
not be very appealing in my method of thorough Scriptural examination of ONE topic, UR?

Looking forward to another Great discussion with you there, my friend... an Ultimate Restart?

Never mind:
I started the thread Warning ALL De-railers about OFF-topic 'UR' (Ultimate Reporting) :

deleted thread

ok, never mind I thought you were napping, so I reported myself to DELETE my thread

 

[St. SteVen]

Adam is a tree.

Wait... Say what?

https://soundcloud.com/user-426611522%2Fwaiting-for-green-remix
Title: Waiting for Green
Track Time: 04:42 / BPM: 84

VS 1
Sitting at a traffic light -
waiting for green
I spoke it right out loud -
"We're always waiting for green."

CHORUS
Can't go forward -
and we can't go back
Waiting so long -
just to get back on track
Stuck in the middle -
right in between
Seems like -
we're always waiting -
waiting for green
That's right -
We're always waiting -
we're always waiting for green

VS 2
Still waiting -
waiting for that light to change
Thinkin' 'bout my money -
and what I need to arrange
Seems like I'm more broke -
than I've ever been
Spoke it right out loud -
"We're always waiting -
waiting for green."

CHORUS

VS 3
Will Springtime ever get here?
When will the season change?
Do we live in the Tundra -
or home on the range?
Winter lasts forever -
or so it seems
When it comes to the seasons -
we're always waiting for green

CHORUS/ENDING

© Steve Lundgren 2018