What is the affect on The Fall and The Atonement, if Adam was not the first human?

[St. SteVen]

Since Jesus died to pay the death penalty for original sin, what happens if you remove the original sinner?

Or to state this another way... How does our view of origins affect our doctrine?

Trying to sort this out in my own mind. Stuck somewhere between science and religion.

Send help! - LOL

This scripture shows that the fate of all humankind rested on the actions of the two Adams.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

So, now the conflict begins needing HELP? Elsewhere the "universalism doctrine was brought out"

"...ALL Shall Be made righteous..." but, now THIS states: "...MANY Will Be Made righteous..."

So, HOW do we HELP the new-born babes In Christ, looking in and reading, who may find this Confusing?

 

[St. SteVen]

So, now the conflict begins needing HELP? Elsewhere the Universalism doctrine was brought out"

I'm always in trouble. - LOL
What should WE do?

"...ALL Shall Be made righteous..." but, now THIS states: "...MANY Will Be Made righteous..."

On the contrary, my good fellow. It says THE many, not many.
The same THE many that were made sinners. Which was ALL, correct?

So, HOW do we HELP the new-born babes In Christ, looking in and reading, who may find this Confusing?

Perhaps we should explain the three biblical views of the final judgement.
Here's an amazingly unbiased presentation of the three views.

10,350 views Dec 9, 2019
Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

 

[GRACE ambassador]

On the contrary, my good fellow. It says THE many, not many.
The same THE many that were made sinners. Which was ALL, correct?

oops, WE (with my good friend) had better not "mess this up": so, What Saith The Scriptures?:
Prayerfully and Carefully considering: Is 'universalism' true?:

Rom 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of
one shall many be made righteous."

Hmm, my version doesn't say "THE," so at the risk of disobeying God, I can add it?

But then there is this, further 'proving' universalism, Correct?:

1Co 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ Shall ↓ ALL ↓ ↓ ↓ be made alive."
=`=`=`=`=`=`=``=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=``=`= ``=`=` = angels And mankind, Correct?

Thus, even though UNbelievers are NOT "Baptized Into The ONE Body Of Christ, By The
ONE Baptism Of The Holy Spirit, they will still be "made alive," Correct? Because, even
After death, and Before Judgment, "they will still have a Second chance"? Because, they
WILL ALL 'perform' the following, Correct?:

Rom_14:11 "For It Is Written, As I live, Saith The LORD, every knee shall bow To Me,
and every tongue shall confess to God." And "The God" they confess to is Jesus, right?:

Php 2:10 "That at The Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and
things in earth, and things under the earth;"

About summed up Correctly?

IF any missing 's for universalism, please fill them in, as I sure don't want to "mess this
homework up," ok?

Tomorrow, more questions about The Bible Doctrine...

Till then, Good night...

 

[St. SteVen]

oops, WE (with my good friend) had better not "mess this up": so, What Saith The Scriptures?:
Prayerfully and Carefully considering: Is 'universalism' true?:

Looks like I have my work cut out for me.

But let me be clear AGAIN up front.
I'm not concerned about convincing anyone. I'm only about 95% myself.
And frankly, the questions are more important to me than the answers. (Luke 10:26)

And I don't claim there is only one answer to this question, which I would broaden to:
What are the THREE biblical doctrines of the final judgment?

Perhaps you didn't watch the Steve Gregg video? (link in post #3) I know, I know... it's long.
But if fine folks have questions, that's a GREAT place to start.

Rom 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of
one shall many be made righteous."

Hmm, my version doesn't say "THE," so at the risk of disobeying God, I can add it?

What is your version? The NIV is a modern translation.
Do we need to dig into the NT Greek? Let me know.
I'm pretty sure the NIV translators didn't slip the word THE in there because they have a UR agenda. - LOL

But then there is this, further 'proving' universalism, Correct?:

1Co 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ Shall ↓ ALL ↓ ↓ ↓ be made alive."
=`=`=`=`=`=`=``=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=`=``=`= ``=`=` = angels And mankind, Correct?

There again, selective word emphasis to make a point. I do it too. No worries.

It does NOT say, "in Christ all".
It says "in Adam all... in Christ all..."
Also begins with "For as..." and continues with "even so..." indicating an identical comparison of action.
In the same way that... so also...

This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ.
Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.

If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.

The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent.
So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.

Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.

But, of course, all did die in Adam.

Therefore, all means all in both instances.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Thus, even though UNbelievers are NOT "Baptized Into The ONE Body Of Christ, By The
ONE Baptism Of The Holy Spirit, they will still be "made alive," Correct? Because, even
After death, and Before Judgment, "they will still have a Second chance"? Because, they
WILL ALL 'perform' the following, Correct?:

Yes, it could happen again. You are familiar with the Harrowing of Hell, correct?
Were those in the realm of the dead (hell, Hades, Sheol,,,) actually dead?

No, I'm not talking about a "second chance". Nothing is left to chance.

And to be clear, I believe the Elect enter the afterlife in a special position.
Having already received what the rest will be brought into.
And probably faster than religious folks. (Matthew 21:31)

Rom_14:11 "For It Is Written, As I live, Saith The LORD, every knee shall bow To Me,
and every tongue shall confess to God." And "The God" they confess to is Jesus, right?:

Php 2:10 "That at The Name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and
things in earth, and things under the earth;"

Agree. Is there a problem?
(... things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth... )
Under the earth? (Matthew 12:40)

IF any missing 's for universalism, please fill them in, as I sure don't want to "mess this
homework up," ok?

I'm not interested in funneling down to a single answer.

Do as you will. If it makes you happy, I will concede the debate and let you win.
Your friendship is more important to me than winning a debate.

I hope you feel the same way. But I understand if you are unable to do that.
It will change nothing from my view.

Tomorrow, more questions about The Bible Doctrine...

Till then, Good night...

The?
As if there is only one? (sigh)

Pleasant dreams, my friend.

 

[Chadrho]

Hmm, my version doesn't say "THE," so at the risk of disobeying God, I can add it?

Then your version isn't translating the Greek accurately because the definite article is definitely there: hoi polloi meaning "the many."

Since "all" means all in verse 18, then it makes sense that "the many" in verse 19 is referencing the same all.

Perhaps your version has an agenda to support the presupposition of eternal damnation?

 

[St. SteVen]

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Продвижение сайта топ

This is not a place to put FREE advertising! Stay on topic please!

Это не место для размещения БЕСПЛАТНОЙ рекламы! Оставайтесь в теме, пожалуйста!

 

[St. SteVen]

Then your version isn't translating the Greek accurately because the definite article is definitely there: hoi polloi meaning "the many."

Since "all" means all in verse 18, then it makes sense that "the many" in verse 19 is referencing the same all.

Perhaps your version has an agenda to support the presupposition of eternal damnation?

Wow.
If we are picking teams, I want you on my side. - LOL

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Then your version isn't translating the Greek accurately because the definite article is definitely there: hoi polloi meaning "the many."

Since "all" means all in verse 18, then it makes sense that "the many" in verse 19 is referencing the same all.

Perhaps your version has an agenda to support the presupposition of eternal damnation?

Precious friend, Thanks for the info, and A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!) ← no presuppositions, just "study to be Approved..."

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

 

[Chadrho]

Precious friend, Thanks for the info, and A Very Warm Welcome to the Board.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided! (+ I and II!) ← no presuppositions, just "study to be Approved..."

Grace, Peace, And JOY!…

Thank you so much for the encouragement! May the peace of our Lord be with you, too.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't know that it's possible to not have presuppositions. We all bring something to the text. And, I think the orthodox settled a number of presuppositions very early on. For instance, Irenaeus talks about the Rule of Faith, i.e. an early creedal statement, long before a "canon" of scripture was firmly established. Happily, he also quotes so much from what we know as the canon and lists the vast majority of the books we accept that we know our canon of scripture is very close to what was early accepted as such. But the Rule of Faith was a set of presuppositions they used to determine the canon and interpret those books. It derived more from the oral teachings of the apostles than from what we think of as the NT scriptures. Again, Irenaeus recalls Polycarp comparing what he learned from the Apostle John to the gospels and other books.

I digress, I'm glad my post was helpful, and thank you for the warm welcome!

 

[RLT63]

I'm always in trouble. - LOL
What should WE do?

On the contrary, my good fellow. It says THE many, not many.
The same THE many that were made sinners. Which was ALL, correct?

Perhaps we should explain the three biblical views of the final judgement.
Here's an amazingly unbiased presentation of the three views.

10,350 views Dec 9, 2019
Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

Four Views on Hell is a good book on the subject

 

[St. SteVen]

Four Views on Hell is a good book on the subject

Can you list the four? I only know of three.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restoration
4) ????

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Wow.
If we are picking teams, I want you on my side. - LOL

That would Even up the odds, eh?

 

[RLT63]

Can you list the four? I only know of three.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restoration
4) ????

Purgatory. I haven’t read it in a long time but I think they label it --literal, metaphorical, conditional, and purgatorial

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Wow.
If we are picking teams, I want you on my side. - LOL

ok, from a different forum, I think (even better odds) you have another team member
= RogerG said:

"1) if Jesus is that Saviour, then why aren't they all saved? There can be no space between
salvation and the salvation the Saviour provides. Should it depend upon anything outside
of Him then He isn't the Saviour - a Saviour must, by definition, be the one who saves.

2) If Christ is the Saviour of the world, then all men do have a Saviour, and therefore, they
must become saved, right? I don't think it is logically possible for it to be both ways - that
for those whom He is the Saviour of that they do not become saved."

universalism, right? More questions...coming soon...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

More questions...coming soon...

Wow, I am usually Very S-L-O-W, but, somehow, this came quickly?:

Who? Jesus Christ, The Saviour, and me (or everyone), the sinner(s)

What? Eternal Life, His FREE Gift

How? By "Grace Through faith"

When? Instantaneously, at the "moment of the above" 'how'

Where? at my home, or: anywhere and everywhere on earth

Why? Because Of The Merits Of Christ's:

Shed (ALL-Sufficient) BLOOD Of His Finished Work, On The Cross

Amen. What think ye?

 

[St. SteVen]

ok, from a different forum, I think (even better odds) you have another team member
= RogerG said:

Wow. You ran out of ammo pretty quickly. - LOL

Thanks to Roger for providing questions.
I think the basic problem with the two views below is one of presuppositions.
This idea that UR can't be true because, well... because it can't be true.
Does not compute in an evangelical mindset. (assuming that as Roger's bkgd)

"1) if Jesus is that Saviour, then why aren't they all saved? There can be no space between
salvation and the salvation the Saviour provides. Should it depend upon anything outside
of Him then He isn't the Saviour - a Saviour must, by definition, be the one who saves.

Jesus is the Savior and they all are saved.
No "space between salvation and the salvation the Saviour provides." Of course.
It doesn't depend on anything outside of Him. Even though that's what Roger seems to be saying.
Yes, Jesus is the one who saves. You should allow Him to do just that. Thanks.

2) If Christ is the Saviour of the world, then all men do have a Saviour, and therefore, they
must become saved, right? I don't think it is logically possible for it to be both ways - that
for those whom He is the Saviour of that they do not become saved."

Become saved? Must become saved? No, SINCE Christ is the savior of the WHOLE world we ARE saved.
Roger doesn't think it is logically possible. I covered that above.

I should clarify that salvation takes many forms.
We are talking about the salvation of our souls to a redemptive and restorative afterlife age.
The age that precedes "heaven", as I understand it.
The age of judgment and mercy, of healing and redemption.
By the God of love who is in the business of restoring humankind.

universalism, right? More questions...coming soon...

Keep it coming. I eat guys like Roger for breakfast. - LOL

 

[St. SteVen]

Wow, I am usually Very S-L-O-W, but, somehow, this came quickly?:

Who? Jesus Christ, The Saviour, and me (or everyone), the sinner(s)

What? Eternal Life, His FREE Gift

How? By "Grace Through faith"

When? Instantaneously, at the "moment of the above" 'how'

Where? at my home, or: anywhere and everywhere on earth

Why? Because Of The Merits Of Christ's:

Shed (ALL-Sufficient) BLOOD Of His Finished Word, On The Cross

Amen. What think ye?

There we go. More ammo. Well done. I like the organized approach.
I'll follow your format to address the conclusions. Thanks.

I might try two approaches here. I'll start with my own Who, What, When... list.
Then return with a rebuttal to your list. Game on.

Who: All, the whole world, all of humankind, everyone created in God's image
What: Redemption, restoration, healing, comfort, correction
When: In the age to come, due to the Atonement already applied
Where: In the afterlife before entering the heavenly realm of the kingdom
Why: Love

 

[St. SteVen]

Who? Jesus Christ, The Saviour, and me (or everyone), the sinner(s)

Agree.

What? Eternal Life, His FREE Gift

Agree.

How? By "Grace Through faith"

Oops. Houston, we have a problem.
The scripture you infer says "saved" past tense.

When? Instantaneously, at the "moment of the above" 'how'

Salvation was ALREADY won on the cross.
I would assign the "instantly", to a restored relationship.
Which will happen for everyone eventually.

Where? at my home, or: anywhere and everywhere on earth

Agree.

Why? Because Of The Merits Of Christ's:

Shed (ALL-Sufficient) BLOOD Of His Finished Word, On The Cross

Agree.
But this nullifies some earlier points. IMHO

Amen. What think ye?

That was fun. Are you learning anything about UR? I hope so, friend.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Are you learning anything about UR? I hope so, friend.

I'll try not to dash your hope

First, these "views of hell" are Confusing:

1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restoration

1) hell exists, and UNbelievers are Eternally condemned?
2) hell does not exist, Unbelievers somehow being made to "cease to exist"

wouldn't that be a "view of NOTHING(ness)"?​

​

3) view of 'Only heaven exists,' since ALL believers, and UR = UNbelievers are going there also?

​

a) although some also have a purgatory (hell?) view of a "refiners fire" for "CLEANING up"​

the Unclean, thus making them "fit" for a CLEAN heaven???​

Sorry, one rule of my learning is to define everything for understanding/intelligent
conversation. So, what about these? Are they "God's Plan Of Salvation"?:

A) Redemption
B) Reconciliation
C) Restoration

Your excellent thoughts and/or definitions, please?

I really do Appreciate Well-organized homework! = your work towards the statement of?:

"Well done thou good and faithful servant!" Right? (grilled burgers notwithstanding)