What is the difference between vengeance and justice?

[GodsGrace]

It's not that the relationship shouldn't be restored, but that it cannot be. It takes two...
King David was persuaded to forgive Absalom for murdering his brother Amnon. But there was no repentance on Absalom's part and the relationship between him and his father was not healed - Absalom went on to plot against David and tried to usurp his throne.

And yes - God does expect us to repent! He is ready and willing to forgive absolutely everyone - but repentance is an essential precondition for the receiving of His forgiveness. The father in the parable of the prodigal son never stopped loving his son - but the son couldn't benefit from his father's love until he swallowed his pride and went home.

We are not expected to forgive in the absence of repentance. We are commanded to forgive "just as in Christ God forgave you" (Ephesians 5:32) - i.e. when the offender apologises/repents. Jesus says the same: "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them." (Luke 17:3)

I agree with all you've said except the very last part.
I'll have to agree with @Grailhunter and what I THINK he's aiming for.

We are NOT to wait till someone asks for our forgiveness.
We are to forgive everyone as soon as we can and NOT wait.

OF COURSE, we forgive if asked,,,but also if not asked.

I'll be looking forward to your reply to post no. 40.

 

[Miss Hepburn]

We are not expected to forgive in the absence of repentance.
We are commanded to forgive "just as in Christ God forgave you" (Ephesians 5:32) - i.e. when the offender apologises/repents. Jesus says the same: "If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them." (Luke 17:3)

As you know, there are many discrepancies in the Bible...what do you think was meant by forgive 70 x 7?
Does anyone here honestly think any of the Romans 'repented' for what they did to Jesus...and yet...

 

[GodsGrace]

As you know, there are many discrepancies in the Bible...what do you think was meant by forgive 70 x 7?
Does anyone here honestly think any of the Romans 'repented' for what they did to Jesus...and yet...

Jesus said:
FORGIVE THEM FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.

You're right.
We forgive whether or not it is asked of us.

 

[Deborah_]

That is all good. Keep in mind forgiveness heals the victim and perpetrator. So riddle me this; What happens if you forgive first, before they repent?

I agree with all you've said except the very last part.
I'll have to agree with @Grailhunter and what I THINK he's aiming for.

We are NOT to wait till someone asks for our forgiveness.
We are to forgive everyone as soon as we can and NOT wait.

OF COURSE, we forgive if asked,,,but also if not asked.

I'll be looking forward to your reply to post no. 40.

Well, I agree that we should forgive first - in the sense that we don't bear a grudge or seek revenge. My point is that such "one-sided" forgiveness is an incomplete forgiveness.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I agree that we should forgive first - in the sense that we don't bear a grudge or seek revenge. My point is that such "one-sided" forgiveness is an incomplete forgiveness.

That's not true.
If you think that's true you don't really understand forgiveness.

I don't want to repeat...maybe you could read my post nos. 12 and 14?

Thanks.

 

[Deborah_]

As you know, there are many discrepancies in the Bible...what do you think was meant by forgive 70 x 7?
Does anyone here honestly think any of the Romans 'repented' for what they did to Jesus...and yet...

Is that a discrepancy? The point is that people often do re-offend - but we still have to forgive them. The "70 x 7" is a Jewish way of saying "without limit".
How many times do we go on sinning against God? Yet He still forgives... (and still expects us to repent, every time)

The centurion who crucified Jesus recognised at the end that He was "a righteous man" / "the Son of God" (depending which Gospel you read). Since the Romans normally considered crucified criminals to be sub-human, I would call that evidence of repentance.

 

[Deborah_]

That's not true.
If you think that's true you don't really understand forgiveness.

I don't want to repeat...maybe you could read my post nos. 12 and 14?

Thanks.

I think we're saying effectively the same thing but defining our terms slightly differently.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think we're saying effectively the same thing but defining our terms slightly differently.

OK. This happens.

There is a difference between forgiving someone
and reconciling with someone.

Forgiveness takes ONE PERSON....YOU.
Reconciliation takes TWO PERSONS and sometimes is not possible.

I'm sure we've all had these experiences in life.

 

[quietthinker]

God's Justice is liberation. God's vengeance is exercised against sin ie, no toleration in the smallest degree....it killed Jesus.

Gods kindness is exercised towards us two ways.
If we were to see how much (the extent) we are loved in one package we would be a blithering mess of tears. Conversely, if we where to see the extent of our sins and God's just punishment in one package it would crush us. God reveals both to us in increments. If we are faithful in little, more is given us. It effectively puts all of mans overflowing yada yada re these matters into perspective, that of it being the pursuit of vain glory.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I know that Scripture tells us to forgive if you have aught against any, but what if someone did something egregious, to which they were never held accountable for? Are we still to forgive or should we seek to have them held accountable? Since someone is corrupted - even if a Christian - should we keep that individual out of our lives, so that they cannot inflict further damage, yet in our hearts forgive? Or does God expect us to welcome that individual with open arms?

I've struggled with this and pastors seem all over the place with it, and I wondered if anyone had ever really worked it out in their own minds/ spirits as to where the lines were drawn. Have you had personal experience with this - if so, how have you handled it?

Vengeance is stupid and just malice.

One has to keep some people away and do not tolerate them at all because they are ratbags scoundrels.

One only forgives as to one who truly repents of their sin and then one can forgive but never before hand. one can help them then, but it's not worth bothering with one who is not repented at all. we can pray for them tho.

God wanted Cain to repent, but he did not.
A person who kills, their Soul is in grave pain and somewhat damaged but it can only come back to health only through coming to God to heal it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Vengeance is stupid and just malice.

One has to keep some people away and do not tolerate them at all because they are ratbags scoundrels.

One only forgives as to one who truly repents of their sin and then one can forgive but never before hand. one can help them then, but it's not worth bothering with one who is not repented at all. we can pray for them tho.

God wanted Cain to repent, but he did not.
A person who kills, their Soul is in grave pain and somewhat damaged but it can only come back to health only through coming to God to heal it.

WHY does a person have to forgive?
WHY does the other person have to repent first?

We're talking about forgiving another person...
NOT God forgiving us.

 

[Soverign Grace]

Yes, that is the really hard part, her being a "Christian"...but then, are we not to "know them by their fruits"? David was very repentant and humble before the Lord, this girl is anything but repentant, will own up to nothing. She is the only person that I can even recall who ever stole from me, shamelessly. I sure wish I could remember what I had stored in the boxes she also took, I am so hoping there were no pictures in there! Okay, deep breath nance, deep breath, lol. It all comes out in the wash and, I do not seek reparation or vengeance as, I know that is God's alone. I sure do pray and hope for her to realize what she has done...I kind of already think she is in regret...not for stealing but, for moving out of the perfect place for her as she will not find a place for 300 bucks including all. Thanks for your kind and wise words SG. ♥

My experience with several believers that I 100% believe were spiritually regenerated, is that they did great evil - like David did - but I didn't stick around to see if they were repentant - so I don't know if they were or not. Both committed unspeakable evil. The one family were shamed nationwide for corruption. Something I've never understood, is why God doesn't show us "that the wicked are cut off" in every case.

That's such a shame that someone who you obviously helped would bite the hand that fed her! Is there any recourse with the law?

 

[Soverign Grace]

Scripture is clear.
You're just not seeing it.
I posted some stuff up above....

I'm unsure what Scripture you're referring to?

 

[Soverign Grace]

Interesting story, and as far as bad things happening to good people and good things happening to bad people....you have heard the cliche....the rain falls on the just and unjust. That is life and fairness does not abide. But as far as God and you or me, it only matters what we do. What someone else does, is between them and God.

My husband always says "Whatever made you believe that life is fair!?" Yet as a Christian we have a well-developed sense of right and wrong, justice and injustice. God knows our souls are vexed seeing others commit evil.

 

[Soverign Grace]

Picture this...you forgive the person...and say, Hi, with a smile, listen to their problems as if nothing happened...bake
them their favorite bread, go to the movies with them....BUT, never leave your gold necklace on the table again!
See? Voila!

That is practical wisdom!

 

[Soverign Grace]

Now this is an entirely different matter. It does not involve forgiveness, but prudence. Christians have every right to protect themselves and their family from harm and evildoers. But they do not need to hold grudges.

So in your opinion - should I have reported the corrupt probate lawyer? I did protect myself and refused to allow them to bully me into signing their corrupt document, but I had the choice to make of whether to report the two corrupt lawyers or not.

 

[Soverign Grace]

Vengeance is stupid and just malice.

One has to keep some people away and do not tolerate them at all because they are ratbags scoundrels.

One only forgives as to one who truly repents of their sin and then one can forgive but never before hand. one can help them then, but it's not worth bothering with one who is not repented at all. we can pray for them tho.

God wanted Cain to repent, but he did not.
A person who kills, their Soul is in grave pain and somewhat damaged but it can only come back to health only through coming to God to heal it.

I have never heard such expressions before! "Ratbag scoundrels" - I've encountered a few people throughout my life who deserved that title

 

[Nancy]

My experience with several believers that I 100% believe were spiritually regenerated, is that they did great evil - like David did - but I didn't stick around to see if they were repentant - so I don't know if they were or not. Both committed unspeakable evil. The one family were shamed nationwide for corruption. Something I've never understood, is why God doesn't show us "that the wicked are cut off" in every case.

That's such a shame that someone who you obviously helped would bite the hand that fed her! Is there any recourse with the law?

If there is any recourse with the law, how could I prove any of it? My siblings know what I had and no longer do but, it would basically come down to she said/ she said, so no, no police involved. God will deal with her and I have no doubt of that. We reap what we sow. Her harvest is left wanting...

 

[Miss Hepburn]

One only forgives as to one who truly repents of their sin and then one
can forgive but never before hand.
one can help them then, but it's not worth bothering with one who is not repented at all. we can pray for them tho.

Well, 'bothering with' and forgiving them are different.
Forgiving a scoundrel, a liar, a thief, a gossiper of my character is something I will do til the day I die, tho, I
may not hang out with them.
Everything they do is a cry for help.

'Never beforehand'?...I will never live my life that way...and thank you, Lord, for giving that wisdom to
me in the depths of my heart...and knowing THAT is all You care about, that is all You see, that is all You want...Love,
always Love in all it's forms, forgiveness, mercy, kindness, encouragement, charity and selflessness.
There is no question, no debate, no confusion of this in me.
It is Your Will, Lord, always, not my personal ego guiding what I shall do.
What a miserable, shallow, selfish life the Ego has in store for those that listen to it!

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm unsure what Scripture you're referring to?

See posts nos. 12 and 14