What is the meaning of I AM WHO I AM in Exodus 3:14?

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

The mention of John B in that chapter is still relevant….why else would it be there…? What does this indicate about his destiny compared with those who will rule from heaven with Jesus?

I do not accept the JW view of the subdivision, concerning 1914 and heaven going. ALL the faithful before and after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus will be with Jesus upon the earth when he reigns over Natural Israel and the mortal nations. The very least or humblest of these immortal faithful will be greater than John the Baptist was during his mortal life.

We have come a long way in our understanding since then…..”the light on the path“, has indeed become much brighter since the 60’s. (Prov 4:18)

Perhaps I should quote a few portions that the JWs teach concerning the idea that it is impossible, in the JW estimation, for Jesus to return to the earth. Maybe some of these ideas are not boldly stated in some of the recent literature, but these ideas underlay the JW thinking. Could you quote from recent JW literature where this concept has been rescinded? Perhaps I should check the recent JW Book "What Can the Bible Teach Us?", but this booklet is rather brief on many subjects.

It is quite evident from the rest of your Post that you mimic JW theology, which I reject. You do not believe in the resurrection of the body of Jesus. You do not believe in the Kingdom of God upon the earth where Jesus will sit upon the Temple Throne of David in literal Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JustMe]

Yes. Jesus was declaring Himself to be the LORD of Exodus. God spoke to Moses, “I AM THAT I AM… I AM hath sent me” ~Exodus 3:14 Later God declares, “that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he… before me there was no God formed” ~Isaiah 43:10.

Listen to Jesus, not theology. Not tradition:

“if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24

He connects your eternal fate to believing that statement. Not whether you believe He existed long ago. Not if you believe He is a prophet. Believing who He claims to be. Then He gives you no excuses:

“Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58

They knew exactly what He was claiming. They tried to stone Him ~John 8:59 because the Law demanded death for blasphemy ~Leviticus 24:16. You do not stone a man for claiming to be greater than Abraham. You stone a man for claiming to be God.

Scripture makes His identity crystal clear:

“The Word was God… and the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1,14
“My Lord and my God” ~John 20:28
“In him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily” ~Colossians 2:9

The issue is not grammar. It is faith. Either He is the LORD manifested in flesh. Or Jesus is a blasphemer. There is no dividing ground remaining. He told you what rests on that decision: “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24.

Well, it is quite impossible for Yeshua to claim anything divine of himself, let alone being a part of YHWH's conversation with Moses in Exodus in reference to John 8:24. Just look at what Yeshua said to his audience here. Yeshua was warning them as a sane and holy man of God and not as some freak show where the people might call him demon-possessed if he meant or said he was the God of Abraham. He kept telling them he was the Son of God and his Messiah. He never changed this narrative, never.

(Joh 8:24) I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I am (he, or, the one), you will die in your sins."
(Joh 8:25) They asked, "Then who are you?" Jesus answered, "I am what I have told you from the beginning.
(Joh 8:26) I have much more I could say to judge you. But I tell people only what I have heard from the one who sent me, and he speaks the truth."
(Joh 8:27) They did not understand who he was talking about. He was telling them about the Father.
(Joh 8:28) So he said to them, "You will lift up the Son of Man. Then you will know that I am. You will know that whatever I do is not by my own authority. You will know that I say only what the Father has taught me.
(Joh 8:29) The one who sent me is with me. I always do what pleases him. So he has not left me alone."
(Joh 8:30) While he was saying these things, many people believed in him.

In verse 24, Yeshua insisted and it was crucial they knew really who he was, as he was the only one to save them from their sins, else without this knowledge and truth, they would not have the opportunity to believe in him. And consequently their sins would not be forgiven upon their death.

And if he somehow incredibly and deliberately signaled in code to his audience that he was the only one of 'I am' he, as meaning he was God himself, that would have sent him immediately afterwards, scurrying, running from the stones flying in his direction and overhead. Yeshua was not crazy or irrational here to suddenly and wildly be completely out of his mind and completely out-of-synch with his previous conversations to now suddenly say he is God. That would have be insane and he would lose is audience all together. They would call him a madman or worse.

And evidently the audience clearly did not know that this modern English expression "I am', that Yeshua allegedly spoke, the Son of God or this Son of Man meant he was God, because 1., they didn't suddenly bow down to him, or 2., get excited or pick up stones to kill him. No, they just asked him plainly, who are you, because according to them, Yeshua apparently never announced who he was yet, even thought he did already in verse 12.

So they asked him in verse 25, who he was. And Yeshua replied, I already told you from/at the beginning,... of our discussions or when he first met them.

And in the beginning of his discussions is verse 12, he said he was the light of the world (and only while he was on the earth).

Then this is linked to Isaiah 42:6 and 49:6; to the Father making Yeshua his salvation, his Messiah as the light of the world.

John 8:24 =>John 8:25 => John 8:12=> Isaiah 42:6 and 49:6

I am what/who I spoke about from the beginning, as the light of the world. The Father planned and spoke of him as the Messiah in Isaiah.

Joh 8:12 Again Jesus spoke to the crowd, saying: I am the light of the world. He that follows me shall not walk in the darkness but shall have the light of life.

Then verse 12 is directly linked to Isaiah 42:6 and 49:6; to the Father making Yeshua his salvation, his Messiah as the light of the world.

John 8:24 =>John 8:25 => John 8:12=> Isaiah 42:6 and 49:6

This is Yeshua's only OT Isaiah connection to this subject, not in Exodus.

(Isa 42:6) I, Yahweh, have called you in righteousness, and will hold your hand and will keep you, and make you a covenant for the people, as a light for the nations;

(Isa 49:6) yes, He says, It is too light a thing that you should be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give you for a light to the nations, that you may be My salvation to the end of the earth.

When Yeshua was anointed as the Messiah, possessing the word of God and his Spirit, Yeshua became the light (life for) of the world.
It is impossible for God himself to be this light directly. He possessed his Son as his Messiah to shine His/this light into the world. God spoke his word through his Son as light as the life in his word/logos as John said in Chapter one.

Furthermore, ‘the light of the world’ is not limited to Yeshua’s physical presence on Earth. Jesus stated, "While I am in the world, I am the light of the world" (John 9:5), his presence continues through the Spirit of his Father, who dwells in believers today. They truly believe in the true Messiah as they possess the Spirit of the Father, through the Christ.

Matthew 5:14–16 is the key scripture stating that believers are the light of the world today:
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

This passage affirms that believers are already light—not because of their own power, but because they reflect the light of Christ. Their lives, marked by good works and moral integrity, are meant to be visible and impactful, guiding others toward God. As Ephesians 5:8 states, "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light." This identity is both a present reality and a call to active witness.

This light is identified as "the light of truth," "the light of Christ," and the "Spirit of Christ," which quickens understanding and enables individuals to discern good from evil.

The light is spiritual, illuminating the human soul and guiding individuals toward righteousness and truth by his Father’s presence in his Son and then in believers, since Pentecost.

Now for someone to suggest from verse 24, and/or verse 28 (Son of Man), to conclude that Yeshua was divine or the same as his Father, YHWH, they need to re-evaluate their position. They dishonor both the Son and the Father God, who is the only YHWH.

The term "I am" should not be capitalized, as an emphatic metaphoric expression for the self-identification of Yeshua, even as his Messianic identification, and it’s not YHWH or the divine one either. It is the Son of Man, the Messiah of God as his Son.

And today, a genuine mature believer in Christ is also this same light of the world as was the Messiah, as they have the same spirit of Yeshua within them where the word/logos and Spirit of God is accessible. I've never heard of God Almighty being the light of life while in the world until he ascended into heaven. God never ascended into heaven, only his begotten Son did. Yeshua, the Son and Messiah of his Father did ascend into heaven, as believers carry this light within them today until they pass or are in the presence of God and his Son eternally..

So, you can add all the scripture you want to convince yourself that modern translated English expression 'I am,' spoken by Yeshua means he is God.

It's really a fool's errand you are pursuing here. It's like trying to make uncooked or undercooked spaghetti stick to a wall. It will never happen. I would advise you to be better prepared before testing your ideas, using pertinent scripture and context as I have to show you that your belief on this matter is pure fantasy.

And I can also truly explain all the other so-called great 'I am' statements with pertinent scripture and context, that reveals Yeshua is the Son of Man, the Son of God and his Messiah - not God. Believe in this true Messiah and your sins will be forgiven. His God and mine would be very happy if you did.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I do not accept the JW view of the subdivision, concerning 1914 and heaven going. ALL the faithful before and after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus will be with Jesus upon the earth when he reigns over Natural Israel and the mortal nations.

Please provide a Scripture that reinforces the idea that any ancient servant of God in Israel entertained the prospect of going to heaven? Jesus himself said that natural Israel has been abandoned because of their disgraceful record as serial covenant breakers. (Matt 23:37-39) Once Israel had fulfilled God’s promise to Abraham, and produced the promised one, and then orchestrated the murder of their own Messiah, God chose a new nation to represent him in worship...the ones Paul called “the Israel of God”, made up of the faithful disciples of Jesus Christ, both Jewish and Gentile. (Gal 6:16) This is spiritual Israel....the “tribes” mentioned in Rev 7:4.
No one of any nationality is excluded. (Acts 10:34-35)

But Rev 7:9-10, 13-14, mentions a great crowd from all nations who are before God’s throne, dressed in clean holy garments and with palm branches in their hands indicating that they in a peaceful condition. They are proclaiming salvation from God and the Lamb, Jesus Christ.
The 144,000 are the “chosen ones” (elect) who are in heaven, and these share rulership with Christ who is said to sit on his Father’s throne, whilst these elect also share in rulership.

Those before the throne are their subjects on earth. (Rev 21:2-4)

The very least or humblest of these immortal faithful will be greater than John the Baptist was during his mortal life.

That is your understanding from your own indoctrination, but there is only one reason why John the Baptist is a lesser one, compared to the elect...he died before Jesus and was not among those taken into the “new covenant”. He will no doubt be a prominent “Prince” among Princes....on earth after his resurrection....along with all the other faithful ones mentioned in Hebrews 11....
Vs 13 states...”In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.”

Perhaps I should quote a few portions that the JWs teach concerning the idea that it is impossible, in the JW estimation, for Jesus to return to the earth. Maybe some of these ideas are not boldly stated in some of the recent literature, but these ideas underlay the JW thinking. Could you quote from recent JW literature where this concept has been rescinded?

Jesus own words....”A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but you will behold me, because I live and you will live.”

Only the ones chosen for rulership in heaven would see Jesus again in the spirit realm, where he returned to his God and Father. (John 14:17) They have no need of earthly bodies again because they have been given heavenly bodies, immaterial and immortal, and now incorruptible.

Humans who are brought back to life in the earthly resurrection, (John 5:28-29) will still be mortal humans of flesh, still free willed, the same as Adam and his wife were at their creation. They won’t be changed because there is no need for them to become spirit beings. Their destiny was always earthly as this is where God created the human race to live.

Perhaps I should check the recent JW Book "What Can the Bible Teach Us?", but this booklet is rather brief on many subjects.

Consult whatever you wish....Jesus never said he was coming back in the flesh. In fact, Jesus has no need of an earthly body again because the only reason he was given one in the first place was to sacrifice it for mankind...will he then take it back? Where was Jesus going to “prepare a place” for his faithful disciples? Not here on earth. His “Father’s house” is in heaven. There has been no Temple on earth for almost 2000 years. There will never be a need for a physical one in the future.

You do not believe in the resurrection of the body of Jesus.

His manifestations after his resurrection were in different bodies, which his disciples did not recognise for the most part. On one occasion mentioned in Luke 24:31, he was dining with some of them and after he broke the bread, they realized who he was, and he simply vanished before their eyes. He was not in mortal flesh, but materialized a human body like other spirit beings had done in times past. (Genesis 18) They appeared to be as human as anyone else. When their mission was accomplished they went back to heaven, like Jesus did.

It is quite evident from the rest of your Post that you mimic JW theology, which I reject.

You are arguing with Scripture Trevor....not just our theology....you can reject whatever you see as being in opposition to your own theology, but that doesn’t mean that the Scripture is wrong. It’s all in the interpretation.

You do not believe in the Kingdom of God upon the earth where Jesus will sit upon the Temple Throne of David in literal Jerusalem.

No, because Jesus himself confirmed that this was not going to be the case.
Argue with Jesus’ own words, in the Scriptures I gave you....what did he say to the Samaritan woman?

The true temple of God, represented by the earthly one and its priesthood, is in heaven now.
1 Pet 2:4-10...
“As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but chosen, precious to God, 5  you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, in order to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6  For it says in Scripture: “Look! I am laying in Zion a chosen stone, a precious foundation cornerstone, and no one exercising faith in it will ever be disappointed.”

7  It is to you, therefore, that he is precious, because you are believers; but to those not believing, “the stone that the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone” 8  and “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” They are stumbling because they are disobedient to the word. To this very end they were appointed. 9  But you are “a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies” of the One who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10  For you were once not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not been shown mercy, but now you have received mercy.”

This is about spiritual Israel, not fleshly Israel..... and as it says in Heb 12:22-24...

“But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23  in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24  and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.”

 

[bdavidc]

The term "I am" should not be capitalized, as an emphatic metaphoric expression for the self-identification of Yeshua, even as his Messianic identification, and it’s not YHWH or the divine one either. It is the Son of Man, the Messiah of God as his Son.

You’re overlooking the reaction of the audience and the flow of the passage.

In John 8 Jesus repeatedly says “I am” and ties eternal life to believing it, “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24. The Jews then ask who He is ~John 8:25 because the claim is weighty, not because it was ordinary.

Then He removes all ambiguity: “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58. He does not say I was or I have been. He uses the present form that echoes the divine name in ~Exodus 3:14. The response proves they understood the claim, “then took they up stones to cast at him” ~John 8:59. Stoning was for blasphemy ~Leviticus 24:16, not for saying “I am the Messiah.”

And this matches the rest of John. The same Gospel opens, “the Word was God… and the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1,14 and ends with Thomas addressing Jesus, “My Lord and my God” ~John 20:28. Jesus accepts the confession, He does not correct it.

So the issue is not capitalization or English wording. It is the claim Jesus made and how His hearers understood it. They did not try to crown Him Messiah. They tried to stone Him for identifying Himself with the divine name.

 

[TazzJazz]

You can say you prefer a wording, but Scripture does not take orders from preference. Jesus did not say “before Abraham was, I was.” He said “before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58. Straightforward Greek there, ἐγώ εἰμι, present tense. Not a title used for convenience, but a statement of existence. And they knew exactly what He said, because “they took up stones to cast at him” ~John 8:59. They were about to commit him to death for violating the law against blasphemy ~Leviticus 24:16. You do not stone a man for saying he existed earlier. You stone a man for taking the name of God.

God declared His name: “I AM hath sent me unto you” ~Exodus 3:14. The same God declares, “beside me there is no God” ~Isaiah 44:6. Either Jesus spoke truth when He said “I AM” and is Yahweh in the flesh or He blasphemed. Scripture allows no alternative.

The rest of the Word backs Jesus up. “The Word was God… and the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1,14. God the Father says to Jesus, “Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever” ~Hebrews 1:8. Thomas answered Him, “My Lord and my God” and Jesus didn’t discipline him ~John 20:28.

Translation arguments don’t enter into it. You either accept or reject what God has clearly spoken about His Son. “He that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son” ~1 John 5:10.

if this, ie., your understanding of this verse, were true -- that they were going to stone Jesus for blasphemy -- but Jesus got away from them.... then why didn't they stone Him, the next time they saw him? I mean, the very next chapter, John 9, shows Jesus freely walking among the Jews and the Pharisees! They would have stoned him, then.

No, you're reading into the text what isn't there.

 

[TazzJazz]

for example . when one says OH the WORD was NOT GOD
WHO DID THEY JUST DENY was THEIR SAVOIR . GOD . THEY just denied GOD as their savoir .
ITS CLEARLY WRITTEN
that the WORD was GOD . WHO ELSE can save us but GOD . with man this is impossible , B UT NOT WITH GOD .
NOT with who , NOT WITH GOD .
This people who seem to love to call GOD a liar , have no idea they call GOD a liar .
WHO else could sav e us . Angels cannot , heck a third of them even fell from heaven .
NO MAN , nothing created can save man . BUT GOD CAN .
And now a word .
IN THE BEGINNING was THE WORD
and the WORD was with GOD
and the WORD was GOD . So simple my friend .

And just a few verses later, John states: "No one has seen God AT ANY TIME." (Did not thousands see Jesus?) So, which rendering - "the Word was God" or "the Word was a god / god=like" fits the context?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

Please provide a Scripture that reinforces the idea that any ancient servant of God in Israel entertained the prospect of going to heaven?

I do not believe any of the faithful will go to heaven. As this subject is off topic, I will add a few references that form the basis of my beliefs, and I suggest each of the following are contrary to what you are stating and contrary to JW teaching.

The following clearly teaches that the Temple will be established in Jerusalem. Jesus will sit upon the Temple Throne of David for the 1000 years.
Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Jesus will return from heaven.
Acts 1:10–11 (KJV): 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He will no longer be in heaven.
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

The body of Jesus was raised from the dead and changed to a material spiritual immortal body. This was the body that the Apostles witnessed during the 40 days after his resurrection. The tomb was empty. This is called resurrection from the dead.
Acts 2:31–32 (KJV): 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[amigo de christo]

And just a few verses later, John states: "No one has seen God AT ANY TIME." (Did not thousands see Jesus?) So, which rendering - "the Word was God" or "the Word was a god / god=like" fits the context?

They seen God in the flesh . NOT GOD in all HIS GLORY . no man can see HIM as that . not yet anyway .
Not even MOSES was allowed to SEE HIS FACE in all HIS G LORY . no man in flesh can survive .
Its why we shall also have new bodies free of lustful sin one day .
Speaking of this , let us do ourselves a favor and never try and recreate an image of God
which would in any way accept any sin . cause THAT AINT GOD . so its about high time
we boot this all inclusive sin accepting , even unbelief in JESUS accepting false love sensual love image OUT of all churches .
Cause IT AINT GOD NOR CHRIST . The devil can wear wool and beleive me
the image he produces of GOD , aint GOD its his own image by which through the lusts of the flesh men worship the dark one.
And though he cries its love and though he acts like he l oveth humanity and judges not
BELEIVE ME HE DESIRES naught but their death . So lets ensure none follow that one .

 

[Marvelloustime]

They seen God in the flesh . NOT GOD in all HIS GLORY . no man can see HIM as that . not yet anyway .
Not even MOSES was allowed to SEE HIS FACE in all HIS G LORY . no man in flesh can survive .
Its why we shall also have new bodies free of lustful sin one day .
Speaking of this , let us do ourselves a favor and never try and recreate an image of God
which would in any way accept any sin . cause THAT AINT GOD . so its about high time
we boot this all inclusive sin accepting , even unbelief in JESUS accepting false love sensual love image OUT of all churches .
Cause IT AINT GOD NOR CHRIST . The devil can wear wool and beleive me
the image he produces of GOD , aint GOD its his own image by which through the lusts of the flesh men worship the dark one.
And though he cries its love and though he acts like he l oveth humanity and judges not
BELEIVE ME HE DESIRES naught but their death . So lets ensure none follow that one .

@amigo de christo

 

[JustMe]

You’re overlooking the reaction of the audience and the flow of the passage.

In John 8 Jesus repeatedly says “I am” and ties eternal life to believing it, “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24. The Jews then ask who He is ~John 8:25 because the claim is weighty, not because it was ordinary.

Then He removes all ambiguity: “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58. He does not say I was or I have been. He uses the present form that echoes the divine name in ~Exodus 3:14. The response proves they understood the claim, “then took they up stones to cast at him” ~John 8:59. Stoning was for blasphemy ~Leviticus 24:16, not for saying “I am the Messiah.”

And this matches the rest of John. The same Gospel opens, “the Word was God… and the Word was made flesh” ~John 1:1,14 and ends with Thomas addressing Jesus, “My Lord and my God” ~John 20:28. Jesus accepts the confession, He does not correct it.

So the issue is not capitalization or English wording. It is the claim Jesus made and how His hearers understood it. They did not try to crown Him Messiah. They tried to stone Him for identifying Himself with the divine name.

What an absurd reply to my post. You completely disregarded the truth I presented regarding parts of John 8:24-30 because you have no response for it; it is unfamiliar to you. Then you hurriedly quoted your nonsensical misunderstanding of John 8:58 once more. Yeshua was not claiming to be God in John 8:24 or 25, nor in John 8:58. You are desperately trying to support a flawed theory about who Yeshua truly is by fabricating ideas and stating your irrational theory without any logical foundation or evidence.

Furthermore, your creation of a new strawman argument by suggesting that I 'overreacted' to the audience is both pathetic and unsettling.

I do not believe you seek the truth or are willing to move beyond what you have been taught by ignorant and foolish people.

"The claim in John 8:24 or even 25 was weighty!" Are you serious? He never claimed to be God.

Yeshua was the Son of God, the Messiah, and the Son of Man—not God at all. There is a deceptive spiritual confusion clouding your understanding of the nature of the Son of God, and only God can resolve what I see as a significant problem.

Try setting aside your 'Yeshua = God' label or rubber stamp and stop imposing it; instead, keep and use the terms already in scripture, like Yeshua, Son of God, the Christ, and so on.

 

[Aunty Jane]

They seen God in the flesh . NOT GOD in all HIS GLORY . no man can see HIM as that . not yet anyway .
Not even MOSES was allowed to SEE HIS FACE in all HIS G LORY . no man in flesh can survive .

No Amigo...that is not what John 1:18 says at all.....be honest, it says....
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.” (ESV)

Again, the use of capital letters is suggesting what the original Greek never even implied. God cannot be “begotten”...he is the “begetter” of his Son, like all fathers are. He is a “god” (divine, god-like) in the sense of the word understood by the Greeks, but not by the later corrupted human translators of the Bible.

You seem to dislike any reference to the Greek because you cannot argue with what it says....but that is the language of the NT...like it or not. Study it or remain in ignorance.....your choice.

Even the KJV says...
“No man hath seen God at any time....”.
It says “at ANY TIME”...so you are fudging Scripture there Amigo....forcing it to say in English, what it never did in Greek.

And yes, the Bible is correct, as TJ stated.....”no man can see God and live”. Thousands saw Jesus.

Its why we shall also have new bodies free of lustful sin one day .

Yes....the Bible tells us that it was always God’s first purpose to have perfect sinless humans to serve his interests on earth.....he created them for that reason. Why are we here Amigo?

Speaking of this , let us do ourselves a favor and never try and recreate an image of God

A very good suggestion.....so why have you done that? What image of God do you create in the things you post? Is it accurate, or is it based on the flawed theology passed on by the Catholic church to all her “daughters”? Are you trying to be a solution, whilst being part of the problem?

which would in any way accept any sin . cause THAT AINT GOD . so its about high time
we boot this all inclusive sin accepting , even unbelief in JESUS accepting false love sensual love image OUT of all churches .
Cause IT AINT GOD NOR CHRIST . The devil can wear wool and beleive me

He can indeed, and so convincingly, that he will successfully take the majority of professed “Christians” down with him. (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23) Will we be among those whom Christ rejects? We will be the last to know....

the image he produces of GOD , aint GOD its his own image by which through the lusts of the flesh men worship the dark one.
And though he cries its love and though he acts like he l oveth humanity and judges not
BELEIVE ME HE DESIRES naught but their death . So lets ensure none follow that one .

How do we not “follow that one” if the majority do not know that he’s a phoney?...his arguments look authentic, and the fractured “Christianity” he promotes isn’t the real deal, but is presented as such....but many like yourself have no idea that what they promote is not what Jesus taught about himself or his God and Father at all.

At John 17:3...Jesus said to his Father....

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.” (KJV)

Is this “God” talking to himself? Or is this the Son on earth, speaking to his Father in heaven”?

Where is the third and equally important “person”? Why do we not need to “know” the Holy Spirit?

How does one part of God send an equal part of himself to die, when he is immortal? Can mere humans kill God?

Can the pre-human Jesus simply be a separate glorious being “with” his Father in heaven before his human birth? He is called his Father’s “firstborn”....He is the first of God’s created “sons”. (Col 1:15; Rev 3:14)
Isn’t this what John 1:1 actually says?....he was “with God in the beginning”.....what beginning? An eternal God has no beginning.

You can’t tell people to “get out of Babylon the great” whilst you yourself support her doctrines....and are thereby, in cahoots with the harlot yourself.

 

[bdavidc]

What an absurd reply to my post. You completely disregarded the truth I presented regarding parts of John 8:24-30 because you have no response for it; it is unfamiliar to you.

Insults are not an argument. The text still stands. Jesus says, “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24. He attaches salvation to believing who He is. That is not the language of a mere messenger.

They immediately ask, “Who art thou?” ~John 8:25 because the claim demands clarification. And the same conversation ends with, “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58. Their response is to stone Him ~John 8:59, which the Law required for blasphemy ~Leviticus 24:16.

So the meaning of verses 24–30 is not separated from verse 58. The hearers understood exactly what you deny. The issue is not unfamiliarity with the passage. The issue is whether you will accept the testimony given in it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

For the sake of clarity Trevor, let me address your interpretation of the Scriptures you posted....

The following clearly teaches that the Temple will be established in Jerusalem. Jesus will sit upon the Temple Throne of David for the 1000 years.

Scripture already mentioned states that the “Jerusalem” you think is earthly, is actually in heaven as is Mount Zion. “Types and shadows”.... the earthly arrangement reflects the heavenly one.
Does Scripture contradict?...if it does then it is not the word of God.

Jesus will return from heaven.

Yes, he will return in the same “manner” as he left...which was something the world at large did not know, and did not witness. Only his closest disciples saw him leave as he disappeared into the sky.

Christ’s return was to be “in the same manner”.....which is why he gave a very comprehensive series of events to indicate when he had returned. (Matt 24:3-14) His “parousia” (his “presence”, not his “coming”) was the beginning of the last days, and his manifestation as judge with his angelic forces will be at the end of these difficult times.

The body of Jesus was raised from the dead and changed to a material spiritual immortal body. This was the body that the Apostles witnessed during the 40 days after his resurrection. The tomb was empty. This is called resurrection from the dead.

He was not raised in a material body. Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven as the scriptures say....so a transformation is necessary for all the elect to dwell in the presence of God....the place where Jesus lived before and after his earthly mission. He was going back to the Father as he told Mary Magdalene....

He told his disciples that he was going to prepare a place for them...where? “In his Father’s house”......
Where is his Father’s house? The material Temple pictured the heavenly one, where Jesus entered after his return to offer the value of his sacrifice to God.
He is now our High Priest, with the elect to rule with him for the 1000 years....not on earth, but over the whole of mankind, no matter where they are located..

Heb 9:24...
“For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:” (KJV)

Christ has no need or desire to be a human again....he will rule from heaven with his 144,000 elect.
It is a global government that they will be administrating so no literal earthly location will be the seat of God’s government. Jesus told the Samaritan woman that Jerusalem would no longer figure in God’s worship in the future. “Heavenly Jerusalem” was now the seat of that global government.

Your Scriptures are very misunderstood IMO, as they argue with the rest of the Bible.
The “holy land” is polluted with blood and the hatred of those who still consider this piece of dirt to be sacred.....with all the Abrahamic religions still fighting over it.....but it isn’t sacred to God any more....nor is this nation still his “people”...he chose a new nation to serve his interests.....spiritual Israel is “the Israel of God”. (Gal 6:16) Fleshly Israel as a nation have been abandoned. (Matt 23:37-39) In all their history, we learn more about their disobedience and God’s response to it, than we do from the times they were blessed.

God’s first purpose will be restored....with one heavenly ruler over the whole of creation. Once the Kingdom has achieved its purpose, Jesus will hand the reigns back to his own Sovereign.....in full submission.

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” ( 1 Cor 15:22-28 KJV)

 

[JustMe]

Insults are not an argument. The text still stands. Jesus says, “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24. He attaches salvation to believing who He is. That is not the language of a mere messenger.

They immediately ask, “Who art thou?” ~John 8:25 because the claim demands clarification. And the same conversation ends with, “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58. Their response is to stone Him ~John 8:59, which the Law required for blasphemy ~Leviticus 24:16.

So the meaning of verses 24–30 is not separated from verse 58. The hearers understood exactly what you deny. The issue is not unfamiliarity with the passage. The issue is whether you will accept the testimony given in it.

Insults are the least of your worries...don't you think. You are responsible for your words and actions, not I. I am ultra-confident I write the truth of this matter as the Spirit guides me.

You clearly defy what both YHWH said of his Son and what his Son also said of himself. They said the same thing and you ignore and override the word of God. Isn't that called blasphemy? I'll let you decide. You do have you use your conscience to know the difference I hope.

I will write it again, or spell it out for you again: This is the TRUTH in scripture not your dribble and defiant words that intend to mislead others in the a fantasy world of unbelief, as you have done to yourself already.

(Joh 8:24) I told you that you would die in your sins. Yes, if you don't believe that I am (he, or, the one), you will die in your sins."
(Joh 8:25) They asked, "Then who are you?" Jesus answered, "I am what I have told you from the beginning"

John 8:24 =>John 8:25 => John 8:12=> Isaiah 42:6 and 49:6

The people asked Yeshua who he was and he told them what he said before, and he clearly said, from the beginning of his discussion he was the "light of the world."

John 8:12 "Again Jesus spoke to the crowd, saying: I am the light of the world. He that follows me shall not walk in the darkness but shall have the light of life." He became this light of the world for salvation as his transformation as the Messiah. This is non-negotiable bdavidc. God said so and so does his Son.

YHWH his God said the same thing of his Son:

(Isa 42:6) I, Yahweh, have called you in righteousness, and will hold your hand and will keep you, and make you a covenant for the people, as a light for the nations;

(Isa 49:6) yes, He says, It is too light a thing that you should be My servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give you for a light to the nations, that you may be My salvation to the end of the earth.

This is non-negotiable bdavidc. You defy both God and the Son of God.

It is no different than you saying no, you are not the light of the world, you are God.

And you worry about me insulting and ruining your pride and ego. I would get real and humble myself and stop overriding scripture and the words of our creator God concerning his Son.

I cannot make it any clearer to you, that you have strayed off the path of truth and the word of God because of your religious programmed-in ill-conceived beliefs that do not align at all with scripture.

 

[amigo de christo]

readers beware .
Above is a prime example of pretzel swiss cheese doctrine .
Its been twisted and has more holes than swiss cheese . My advice is , DONT BITE and eat of it .
Rather get them noses back into The bible . too many twist many things and as usual they will use partial truths to do so .

 

[amigo de christo]

Insults are not an argument. The text still stands. Jesus says, “if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins” ~John 8:24. He attaches salvation to believing who He is. That is not the language of a mere messenger.

They immediately ask, “Who art thou?” ~John 8:25 because the claim demands clarification. And the same conversation ends with, “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58. Their response is to stone Him ~John 8:59, which the Law required for blasphemy ~Leviticus 24:16.

So the meaning of verses 24–30 is not separated from verse 58. The hearers understood exactly what you deny. The issue is not unfamiliarity with the passage. The issue is whether you will accept the testimony given in it.

long long ago a man , named john was shown the revelation .
He had heard a v oice behind him and had turned to see
who it was . The appearance was as the Son of man
long white robe , girt about the paps with a golden girdle ,
John fell to his feet .
And the One who spoke to him said FEAR Not
I AM THE FIRST and the LAST .
later john would see crowns being cast at his feet
and much worship being done unto the LAMB .
Later still john went to bow before an angel who said GET UP
I am of your brethern who have the TESTIMONY of JESUS
WORSHIP GOD .
Take note the angel told john WORSHIP GOD .
do you remember any angels or even GOD himself telling them
STOP worshipping the lamb . YEAH , ME NEITHER .
And upon earth peter and others had told men , paul and others had told men
we are but men
But here is a real kicker .
HOW COME when thomas fell to the feet of JESUS and said MY LORD and MY GOD
How come JESUS didnt do as did the angel who had told john
HEY GET UP , I am of your bre thren , WORSHIP GOD .
ANY GUESSES .
HERE is why
IN THE BEGINNING was THE WORD and the WORD was with GOD ......
and the WORD ..........................drum roll please ..........................................was GOD .
ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY HIM and WITHOUT HIM was NOTHING MADE that was made . seems pretty clear to me .
THAT JESUS INDEED is THE WORD OF GOD
and that the WORD was with GOD
and , well i think you get the drift my friend .
Those who deny the d iety of Christ have no idea they DENY and call GOD a liar .
That my friend is not good .

 

[bdavidc]

And you worry about me insulting and ruining your pride and ego. I would get real and humble myself and stop overriding scripture and the words of our creator God concerning his Son.

I cannot make it any clearer to you, that you have strayed off the path of truth and the word of God because of your religious programmed-in ill-conceived beliefs that do not align at all with scripture.

The issue is not my beliefs but the words written in the passage.

Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58. They picked up stones ~John 8:59 because God revealed that name as His own, “I AM THAT I AM” ~Exodus 3:14. Scripture also says God alone is Savior ~Isaiah 43:11, yet Christ gives eternal life ~John 10:28.

So the disagreement is not with me but with what the text says. I’ve pointed to the verses and will leave you to them.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

Scripture already mentioned states that the “Jerusalem” you think is earthly, is actually in heaven as is Mount Zion. “Types and shadows”.... the earthly arrangement reflects the heavenly one.

There is too much literal detail in Isaiah 2:1-4 and this clearly teaches that Isaiah is depicting events that will happen when Jesus returns to the earth. Micah 4:1-8 is almost a quotation of Isaiah 2:1-4, but Micah also reveals the restoration and conversion of natural Israel. Zechariah 14 also gives extensive additional detail of the events leading up to the establishment of the Kingdom, including the return of Jesus to the Mount of Olives. It then details the involvement of the mortal nations and their coming to Jerusalem to worship and keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Yes, he will return in the same “manner” as he left...which was something the world at large did not know, and did not witness. Only his closest disciples saw him leave as he disappeared into the sky.

You are trying to hide the simple, clear teaching of Acts 1:10-11. You have not answered Peter's assessment of this message when he speaks in Acts 3:19-21, including the fact that Jesus will no longer be in heaven.

He was not raised in a material body. Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven as the scriptures say

The Kingdom of God will not be in heaven. All the faithful from Abel onward will be upon the earth with Jesus after the resurrection.
1 Corinthians 15:50 (KJV): Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
They will possess physical immortal bodies not dependent on air and blood. Their bodies will be changed, not replaced. From a JW perspective, What happened to the body of Jesus? Acts 2 speaks about the body of Jesus that it would not see corruption.

God’s first purpose will be restored....with one heavenly ruler over the whole of creation.

Yes, Jesus will reign for the 1000 years in God's Kingdom from the Temple Throne of David in literal Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aunty Jane]

The issue is not my beliefs but the words written in the passage.

The issue for the readers here, is that it is your interpretation of the passage that is in error, as the rest of the Bible itself shows. Scripture does not contradict Scripture.

Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am” ~John 8:58

He did not say that at all.....a reference to the word “eimi” in a good cordnance will reveal that it has a range of meanings...
Strongs...
“εἰμί eimí, i-mee'; the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):—am, have been, × it is I, was.”

Those who insist that it has to have just one meaning, are proving that they are not genuine Bible students but mere students of flawed church theology.

They picked up stones ~John 8:59 because God revealed that name as His own, “I AM THAT I AM” ~Exodus 3:14

These two scriptures have no connection to one another at all except by suggestion and inference.

God’s name in Hebrew means “I Will Be What I Will Be”....not “I Am”.
Jesus was answering a question about his age and he answered as any of us would have in the correct tense. The question was past tense, so the answer was past tense.....”before Abraham I was” or “have been”....perfectly in harmony with the context, but fighting with the doctrine....and why it’s so hotly debated.

Scripture also says God alone is Savior ~Isaiah 43:11,

Then the words of Judges 3:9 are a lie.....the word translated “savior” in the OT is “yāšaʿ”
This word is rendered in various ways according to context....translated as.... ....”saved”....”helped”...”delivered”....”gained victory”....”savior”.

So in other parts of the Bible there are “saviors” (or “deliverers”) who are not God.....but were the means through whom salvation would come. (Judges 3:9)

Newish 9:27...
“Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.” (KJV)

The one who sends the savior, is also a savior. The Father sent the son.....both can rightfully be called “saviors”.

Christ gives eternal life ~John 10:28

How does Christ give eternal life to anyone?
He said “I am the way, the truth, and the life...no one can come to the Father except through me”.

Jesus is the way to the Father...and he is the truth, because his Father taught him everything he knows...

John 7:15-16...”And the Jews were astonished, saying: “How does this man have such a knowledge of the Scriptures when he has not studied at the schools?” Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me.”

So Jesus taught nothing that came from himself...only what his Father taught him....how can that be if he is “God”?

....and he is “life” for whomever accepts his sacrifice and renders to God acceptable worship.

But he also said in John 6:65, that “no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
So we need the approval of both Father and Son in order to inherit everlasting life. What a strange thing to say if they are both equally “God”. Do we need approval by the Holy Spirit too? Where will I find that?

Can you explain why Jesus said in Matt 28:18.. that “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.”...another strange thing to say if he is “God”......no one needed to give him “authority in heaven and on earth” if he was “God”.....who can give to God what he already has?

Theology does not teach the answers to these difficult questions because theology is the teachings of men with an agenda...a doctrine to support....but the Bible explains itself if you study it, and are not fooled by the devil into worshipping the wrong “god”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

readers beware .
Above is a prime example of pretzel swiss cheese doctrine .
Its been twisted and has more holes than swiss cheese . My advice is , DONT BITE and eat of it .
Rather get them noses back into The bible . too many twist many things and as usual they will use partial truths to do so .

Beware indeed!....but the pretzel was twisted long before any of us were even born Amigo....

What you accept as Bible truth...never was. If you undertook a study of the Bible itself, you would recognise the counterfeit that Jesus warned about...remember the “wheat and the weeds”? (Matt 13:24-30, 36-42)

He identified the players in that parable and said that the “weeds” would be sown “by the devil”...in “the world”....”while men were sleeping”.

Do you know what those weeds were? They are a widely recognised toxic plant (common in the Middle East called “bearded darnell) that resembles wheat so closely in the early growing stages, that you cannot tell the difference until the plant is well established, but by then the root systems are so intertwined that the farmer cannot uproot the weeds without taking the wheat with them, so he allowed the weeds to grow along with the wheat, till the harvest, when all the plants were harvested together and the weeds were separated out and burned, whilst the wheat remained and was gathered into his storehouse......it severely diminished the crop, but the wheat still remained, grown despite an enemy’s attempt to sabotage the crop.

This weed is called “wheat’s evil twin” for obvious reasons....an enemy could over-sow his neighbor’s crop with the seeds of this plant at night, without the farmer knowing until it was too late. Can you see what the devil has done to the Christian Faith? He created a counterfeit “Christianity” a very long time ago, and these “weeds” have prospered under the support of people like yourself who promote the false one whist warning others about listening to the pleas of those who teach the real deal....the truth about who God is, what is actually taught in his word, and what it means to be a “Christian”.

The fact that you cannot refute anything I said except with a sad emoji speaks volumes about your ability to teach Bible truth....you don’t know what the Bible teaches outside of your own indoctrination....like most of the posters here. You warn about Christendom whilst clinging to her false doctrines. Where does that put you?....in bed with the harlot, whilst you pretend not to be.

Is it time for you to practice what you preach? I have no doubt about your sincerity, but your knowledge of Scripture leaves you vulnerable to the teachings of the “weeds”. (1 Cor 10:12)