What Is The Point?

[aspen]

Ok, this is a serious question; what is the point of end time prophecy? I am serious! Don't all Christians believe that Christ will return one day? We are all called to be on the lookout, so why is it important to study the book of Daniel or Revelation in a search for how it is going to look? Seems to me like the attempt to pinpoint an accurate portrayal of the end times is akin to choosing a date for His return. Maybe I just do not understand such a fascination with an event that we all know is going to happen. I thought we were supposed to be putting our energy into loving and serving one another not imaging what the future may be like according to scripture that is 19 hundred years old or older.

My grandmother is really into studying the end times and she loves to go around warning everyone who will listen - she is 90 so some of her theories cross into conspiracy theories - and she seems to believe that somehow if people only knew the truth that we could avoid the horrors that are going to befall us. Now, I have asked her many times why it matters what the world will look like in the end and she cannot answer me. It just seems to me that believing that we can change anything that is going to happen in the end times is sort of like Peter telling Christ not to go to the Cross - what is going to happen is going to happen!

Can someone help me out on this issue?

Peace

 

[Miss Hepburn]

I don't see that you need any help, personally.
You're doing just fine.

Miss Hepburn

 

[Surf Rider]

Scripture states that prophecy is for our encouragement and edification. However, it seems that most often it is used wholly contrary to that. Thus, it begs the question, "are those who use it for discord and tearing down, walking right with God?" How can someone use that which God has given, for the exact opposite for which God gave it, and consider themselves to be wise in it? Beats me. Thus, I have forgone further dialogue on such threads. "wise in their own eyes" has certain poignancy for such, it would seem.

Thanks for the good thread!

 

[Rach1370]

Hi Aspen! I think alot of people just like to argue! That certainly what it seems like at times. I enjoy thinking of it, I must confess, and while I can't say that my reason is the reason everyone likes it as well, I thought I'd share my perspective.....food for thought!
I have a chronic Illness, life can be tough sometimes. I am thankful for the day to day joy I get from my faith, but sometimes the return of Jesus is my "light at the end of the tunnel"!
I'm not sure anyone can be certain of what end time prophecy teaches exactly, but the encouragement I get comes from this. Jesus said that when certain signs begin, we can lift up our eyes, for our redemption draws near. So when I see terrible thing happen, earthquakes, floods, wars; I know that this evil will not always be, that everyday I come closer to seeing Jesus! And I hope! So, thats why I like looking at prophecy! I think, after all, that Revelations is most strongly about Jesus triumphing,reigning and that we shall be with him forever! How can that be a bad thing to ponder on??
Rach

 

[veteran]

Aspen,

God said He does new things, and before they spring forth He tells us of them (Isa.42:9).

That's about the prophecies He has given us in His Word The Bible, and they include warnings for His people, and for those not of His people. It matters not that some refuse to listen to Him on what is coming, the warning must still go out.

God is not a God that just supports any way a person chooses to live. There will be a recompense for wickedness, and His warnings must go out first, and they have.

Prophecy for the end is especially for His people, so they would be prepared in knowing what to expect. Out of love He gives His those things. It's like the difference between having a smoke alarm in your house when a fire breaks out, vs. not having one.

Much of the debate over endtime prophecy is because of the enemy planting men's doctrines in trying to hide, defame, or twist God's warnings of what's coming. Some brethren listen to those doctrines instead of listening to God in His Word, for whatever reason, pride, money, fame, power, etc. Jesus called those the "hireling" in John 10, and showed they are not of His flock, for His sheep hear His voice.

Thus we should not confuse the enemy's attempt to confuse prophecy with leaven doctrines of men that are designed to do upon God's people the same things the Pharisee traditions did, which is why Jesus condemned their traditions. Their traditions made God's Word void. So debates involving that must appear.

 

[aspen]

Hi Aspen! I think alot of people just like to argue! That certainly what it seems like at times. I enjoy thinking of it, I must confess, and while I can't say that my reason is the reason everyone likes it as well, I thought I'd share my perspective.....food for thought!
I have a chronic Illness, life can be tough sometimes. I am thankful for the day to day joy I get from my faith, but sometimes the return of Jesus is my "light at the end of the tunnel"!
I'm not sure anyone can be certain of what end time prophecy teaches exactly, but the encouragement I get comes from this. Jesus said that when certain signs begin, we can lift up our eyes, for our redemption draws near. So when I see terrible thing happen, earthquakes, floods, wars; I know that this evil will not always be, that everyday I come closer to seeing Jesus! And I hope! So, thats why I like looking at prophecy! I think, after all, that Revelations is most strongly about Jesus triumphing,reigning and that we shall be with him forever! How can that be a bad thing to ponder on??
Rach

Rach,

That is the most awesome answer I have ever received when I have asked this question - thank you! I understand your excitement!

Peace

 

[bud02]

Ok, this is a serious question; what is the point of end time prophecy? I am serious! Don't all Christians believe that Christ will return one day? We are all called to be on the lookout, so why is it important to study the book of Daniel or Revelation in a search for how it is going to look? Seems to me like the attempt to pinpoint an accurate portrayal of the end times is akin to choosing a date for His return. Maybe I just do not understand such a fascination with an event that we all know is going to happen. I thought we were supposed to be putting our energy into loving and serving one another not imaging what the future may be like according to scripture that is 19 hundred years old or older.

My grandmother is really into studying the end times and she loves to go around warning everyone who will listen - she is 90 so some of her theories cross into conspiracy theories - and she seems to believe that somehow if people only knew the truth that we could avoid the horrors that are going to befall us. Now, I have asked her many times why it matters what the world will look like in the end and she cannot answer me. It just seems to me that believing that we can change anything that is going to happen in the end times is sort of like Peter telling Christ not to go to the Cross - what is going to happen is going to happen!

Can someone help me out on this issue?

Peace

I'll tell you why.
Certain modern interpretations require certain beliefs about certain verses, to hold the interpretation together. In short I agree that it is very difficult to fully understand Rev. I don't profess to completely understand it myself.
I believe I read one of your many thread starters about you not being a dispensatalist, nether am I, but I understand that such beliefs require certain understandings of the new testament.
Several things taught about Rev modern interpretation can not be found in scripture. My focus is in Danial 9-27. From this verse comes a new temple, a 7 year trib and Satan making a covenant with Israel.
By applying Satan as he in 9-27 and displacing the 70th week yet future, you use an interpretation that was fostered by the Catholic churches counter reformation, and latter picked up by Darby and Scolfeld.
By applying Jesus to 9-27 you have a different story, the interpretation of the reformers. Jesus fulfilled the 70th week right after the 69th. This also impacts your perception and reading of the NT and Israel.
So in a nut shell your perception of rev is affected by your foundational understanding of the Gospel. I believe people make a grave error in understanding the gospel based on Rev. It should be the other way around. Jesus confirmed the covenant with many and His dieing for your sins, cause the sacrifices and oblations in the temple to cease. He replaced it with Himself. I ask most people to give me scripural evidence that Satan makes a covenant and causes the sacrifices and oblations in the temple to cease. I'll clue you in, it can't be found. Changing He / he in 9-27 from Jesus to Satan will effect how you understand scripture, end of story, one verse can make a big difference. That's my message not interpreting REV.

It's really amazing to systematically go threw it with people. They get angry bewildered a whole host of emotions, why because they immediately understand that there perspective and understanding of the end times falls into a pile, because it was based on speculation about one verse. It changes the way you understand the NT.

 

[veteran]

We are not to try and determine what 'day' Christ returns, for He said no man knows that day or hour.

What our Lord Jesus did tell us to do, is to be watching for the signs of His coming.

That is why He gave us the seven signs of the end of this world, in Matt.24, Mark 13, Luke 17-21, which all parallel His Book of Revelation, and also prophecy in the Book of Daniel, since He also referred to the "abomination of desolation" event within His seven signs of the end.

In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul told the Thessalonian Church he had no need to reveal to them about the times and the seasons, for they already knew them. Paul then gave another detail from the seven signs Christ gave, showing that when those who sleep in the night start saying, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them.

Apostle Paul also revealed another detail about the "abomination of desolation" event our Lord Jesus pointed to within His seven signs, with 2 Thess.2 about a false one that is to come and sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Our Lord Jesus then later through His Apostle John, gave even MORE details about that "abomination of desolation" event of a coming final Antichrist when He detailed what the "another beast" (dragon) will do per Rev.13:11 forward, working great signs and miracles upon the earth in the sight of men, and setting up an image to the beast for ALL to bow in worship to.


I think our Lord Jesus has shown us very well what to expect in the last days leading up to His return. But to 'hear' Him, one must first shut off the many leaven doctrines of men designed to lead away from understanding what Christ gave us to watch. It will especially be dangerous for the last generation when the false messiah Christ warned of shows up just prior to His coming.

The reason is, that coming false messiah is going to disguise himself as our Lord Jesus.

One should easily notice, the many seminary leaven doctrines of men being taught to most Christian brethren are designed to lead away from this Message of a false messiah coming first to play Christ, and the danger of our being deceived into thinking that false one will be our Lord. That's the reason why Bible prophecy about this is so attacked by the leaven doctrines of men today.

Finding the 'key' to unraveling it is easy though. We simply have to stay in God's Word as written, and LISTEN to The LORD, instead of man's doctrines. Christ actually made this matter very easy to grasp in His Word. That's why He gave so many examples of a coming false messiah, especially in the NT. Warning about it actually began in the Book of Daniel.

But what do we hear in most mainstream Churches today? Just believe and you'll be saved, you don't have to be on watch; or, you'll be raptured out before the tribulation; or, Christ's return was spiritual only and happenned back in the days of His Apostles; or, there is no singular 'the Antichrist' but only many antichrists; or, some man today like the pope is the final antichrist; or, some nation is the antichrist; or, the beast of Revelation is only about history of the Roman Church; or, that Christ's "thousand years" reign has already begun, or that it does not exist; etc., etc., etc.

How will a believer know the difference between those doctrines of men and what God's Word actually declares? Easy, listen to God in His Word first, then the believer will know when a leaven doctrine of man comes along to try and take God's Truth out of the mind. How many actually listen to our Lord in His Word first though?

 

[tomwebster]

We are not to try and determine what 'day' Christ returns, for He said no man knows that day or hour.

....

Mar 13:23 "But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things". We are able to "know" the day and the hour.

 

[HammerStone]

There are a number of reasons that prophecy about the future is considered very important by so many.

Number one, the Bible is full of it. From roughly the 3rd chapter of Genesis (and one could argue the first), the Bible and particularly the Old Testament, is full of prophecy. Christ himself was prophesied about and He and those around him made that abundantly clear. Christ himself was the fulfillment of prophecy as is His second coming (Mark 13:23).

Number two, most men and women have an apocalyptic world view meaning that most view the world as having: serious problems, rampant corruption, and a general issue with destroying or harming what is true and good. I don't think you have to be Christian to have that worldview. I think most anyone would agree that there is a lot of evil out there.

I think, lastly, that we humans are obsessed with our own destruction. Look to Hollywood for that - everyone month some sort of super-monster or super-natural killer comes out in a movie. At least some of this comes from a "post-God" culture where those who have given up on God look for some sort of "higher power" to destroy the human mess and clean things up. It hearkens back to the same point before.

I think Christians react to all of this with fear. I think a lot of folks place their hope in raptures where the unjust will be punished and they'll fly out of the trouble. Then, there are those of us who believe we will be here and will have to rely solely on God to let us endure through some major changes and evil. These views conflict by nature because they disagree so vehemently on where we will be at when the mess hits the fan.

Knowing signs and seasons in one thing - and the Bible is clear on this - but knowing the exact time is another.

 

[Martin W.]

We also have to keep in mind that a lot of unfulfilled prophecy remains for Israel. We Christians sometimes think we are the center of the universe but in reality we are the branch grafted into the Olive tree of Israel. God has always has his focus on Israel .

I am grateful to be a part of the grafted in branch , but I do not think for a minute that remaining prophecy is for me alone. The focus is swinging back toward Israel , some recent events have fulfilled a long awaited appointed time for the nation. We are in a new era. Israel will also greatly expand its borders soon. It will comprise the Land of Jacob. There will be peace and safety. Remaining worldwide Jews will also return. It will be exciting times for the Christian to observe.

More to come once I have permission to disclose the details.

Best regards.

A.Martin. M. Woodside

 

[aspen]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for your opinions - you have really helped me to gain a new perspective on this issue - I appreciate it.

Peace

 

[Martin W.]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for your opinions - you have really helped me to gain a new perspective on this issue - I appreciate it.

Peace

Thank you Aspen.

I think I love your grandmother you mentioned in your first post. Maybe it is because I find some little old ladies have more backbone than some of the strongest men I have met. Tell her I said that , and please and give her my love from a long distance.

Tell her also to not get too caught up in the conspiracy theories. There can be some factual information within those theories but lots of nonsense written in also. Tell her to be careful who she believes. Thanks.

I am not so sure I would label it as conspiracy theory , but we must acknowledge that there are three groups of people on the face of the earth. One of those groups follows the world view and is (sometimes unknowingly) lead by satan. Satan has always had a conspiracy plan and has had his share of success with it amongst humans.

The second and third groups are either natural descendants of Israel or they are followers of Christ. No conspiracy there. Not always easy to understand but what we Christians and Israelis do is done in public and can be viewed by the whole world. True conspiracy is done in secret and is hidden. Things done in secret are also known as occult , especially when it has a religious component.

We function in group two and three. Wide open and in public. Mistakes and all. We do not conspire nor plan in secret. Some of our leaders do not either. They have a difficult job. One that I could not do. Ronald Reagan was able to speak his heart and run a country. We need more like him.

Send your grandmother my love. Thanks

Arnie Martin. Woodside.
Canada

 

[[email protected]]

There are a number of reasons that prophecy about the future is considered very important by so many.

Number one, the Bible is full of it. From roughly the 3rd chapter of Genesis (and one could argue the first), the Bible and particularly the Old Testament, is full of prophecy. Christ himself was prophesied about and He and those around him made that abundantly clear. Christ himself was the fulfillment of prophecy as is His second coming (Mark 13:23).

Number two, most men and women have an apocalyptic world view meaning that most view the world as having: serious problems, rampant corruption, and a general issue with destroying or harming what is true and good. I don't think you have to be Christian to have that worldview. I think most anyone would agree that there is a lot of evil out there.

I think, lastly, that we humans are obsessed with our own destruction. Look to Hollywood for that - everyone month some sort of super-monster or super-natural killer comes out in a movie. At least some of this comes from a "post-God" culture where those who have given up on God look for some sort of "higher power" to destroy the human mess and clean things up. It hearkens back to the same point before.

I think Christians react to all of this with fear. I think a lot of folks place their hope in raptures where the unjust will be punished and they'll fly out of the trouble. Then, there are those of us who believe we will be here and will have to rely solely on God to let us endure through some major changes and evil. These views conflict by nature because they disagree so vehemently on where we will be at when the mess hits the fan.

Knowing signs and seasons in one thing - and the Bible is clear on this - but knowing the exact time is another.

Excellent post and probably the closest to the mark of any written here. I wish to add a third point to the list.

Number three, Judaism and Christianity are prophetic religions.
The very core of them predicts good and evil upon men and for good reason. The society of man continually devolves itself into chaos and God is constantly having to clean up the mess.